The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Warhead36]

3 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

Forcing the acquisition of a QB year 1 if you don't have the pick to get one and having to pay to move up into the top of draft to get one is very expensive and handicaps your ability to build the rest of the roster is a mistake.

I agree with this in general, but in today's NFL until you get your QB you're going nowhere. The sooner you get your QB in, the sooner your window opens up.

[KDawg]

4 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I agree with this in general, but in today's NFL until you get your QB you're going nowhere. The sooner you get your QB in, the sooner your window opens up.

Until you get your QB, he gets eaten alive because you can't protect him and you Ramsey the guy you spent all those assets on.

 

SEE: RG3, Patrick Ramsey, etc. 

[Warhead36]

9 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Until you get your QB, he gets eaten alive because you can't protect him and you Ramsey the guy you spent all those assets on.

 

SEE: RG3, Patrick Ramsey, etc. 

RG3 couldn't protect himself, but even then we won 10 games his rookie year and he won ROY.

 

CJ Stroud is playing behind 2nd/3rd string OL in Houston and is killing it.

[KDawg]

4 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

RG3 couldn't protect himself, but even then we won 10 games his rookie year and he won ROY.

 

CJ Stroud is playing behind 2nd/3rd string OL in Houston and is killing it.

Houston’s OL is legit better than ours. Their scheme also highlights Stroud’s strengths and Stroud is good at getting the ball out. 
 

You have to protect your QB. We lead the league in 5-man protections and our OL isn’t great. We are doing a disservice to whoever the QB would be.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Riggo-toni]

22 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I agree with this in general, but in today's NFL until you get your QB you're going nowhere. The sooner you get your QB in, the sooner your window opens up.

Since 1999 we have wasted 7 first round picks, 3 seconds, 4 thirds, 3 fourths, and a host of later round picks, and the only average starting quality QBs we got were Brad Johnson and Kirk Cousins, both of whom we let walk.

In the meantime, in the first round we passed on Drew Brees, Ben Roethlisberger, Aaron Rodgers, and more recently Justin Herbert and Tua.

We will likely have another top 5 pick this year, but if Ron et al are still around, it will go to the defense.

[FootballZombie]

We are not protecting Howell, rather yet we are willfully exposing him.

 

Dude has to be everything for us. I'm pretty sure he stepped thru more tackles than B-Rob last night.

It needs to change because it is very unlikely this story ends well on current course. He will end up a broken husk of himself.

[The Consigliere]

2 hours ago, Chachie said:

 

 

 

Certainly a valid rebuttal, GC. I won't debate any of it.

 

I personally see the best arm talent and the coolest head we've had in decades. We won't know where he truly ranks among the current better NFL quarterbacks until we can protect him and I'm willing to give him that time. I really like the kid. Just my take on it. He's the only player we have that shows me some genuine upside for years to come. There is better out there but they all have experience and pedigree. We have Sam. 

 

It's interesting to consider what the next coach would do. Most but not all want their own guy, especially if the draft class has a guy who will go that high. 

 

This class already has 3 guys, for now, projected as top 5 caliber guys in Williams, Maye and Sanders.

 

Then it has another 1-3 that could go outside the top 10 for now. 

 

What does a new regime do?

 

They see we just wasted two top 50 picks on DB's, they aint going DB.

They know we wasted a top 20 pick on a luxury LB, no GM with sense is going LB in the top 10-15

They know we have loads of $$$ invested in the DL in Payne and Allen, they probably aren't going DL. 

 

The OL is a ---- show, though it does have 2 pieces that are performing, and what, maybe 1 more that might be okay.

 

THE WR room just paid McLaurin, he's exiting his prime soon enough but is still elite, and they used a top pick on Dotson, they aint drafting a WR.  

 

The TE room is basically a bunch of jags and a solid athlete TE in Thomas, not sure if his contract expires.

 

I imagine a new FO is going to want to add speed to RB with Gibson leaving and Robinson a grinder. They'll want to sign locked in talent for the OL so they don't have to use all their picks on OL, and if we are in range for a QB, they'll go after one.

 

As much as I like and am happy with Howell, if you are in range for an elite QB in the '24 class, you get him. The solution is simple enough, use the '24 offseason to add OL talent via free agency and the draft, grab your QB, grab a speed/athleticism rb if you can with a day 2 pick but the '24 RB class is kinda sketchy and probably ends up producing a couple of guys who go super early (Sanders, Henderson, maybe Benson) and then a bit of a gap. 

 

I think the new FO will prioritize the offense, particularly the OL, and QB, and maybe speed at RB, not sure what they do with the defense. They've spent a fortune on it to no effect of late. Maybe they push that back to focus on fixing the Offensive issues, namely OL and locked in developmental possibilities at QB, and speed at RB with Gibson leaving. I still think we can get value out of Howell, if we don't get him killed this year. Basically, even if we draft a rookie QB, give Howell 25 starts circa '22-'24, and if he can stay on the field, he should have draft capital by the trade deadline next year, at which point, if we like what we see w/the rookie, we trade him, if we like what we see with Howell, we keep both, or trade Howell for a nice pay day. If Howell ends up proving it this year, he'll carry nice salary cap value considering he'll be on an insanely cheap contract through '25. 

 

It is interesting though. If Howell proves it this year, the new regime probably doesn't go QB anyway in the offseason, if he gets killed this year, or is more nebulous, they will try to get their QB. So the question will probably answer itself based upon his play, and his health.

 

Right now, he's making it hard to justify drafting a QB, but I still would expect a new regime to do so anyway, especially w/only two years left on his contract,whereas a first round rookie would give them 5 years of cost control, it's just far more attractive. 

[The Consigliere]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

Until you get your QB, he gets eaten alive because you can't protect him and you Ramsey the guy you spent all those assets on.

 

SEE: RG3, Patrick Ramsey, etc. 

 

The only blue chip QBs the team ever invested in since Gibbs I ended was Shuler in '94, and RGIII in '12. That's it. Guys like Ramsey, Campbell, Cousins, and Howell, were all speculative dart throws at the position taking guys in round 1 that were round 2 or worse talents (Ramsey and Campbell), and taking guys on day 3 with tools that might make them worthwhile (Cousins and Howell). 

 

If the team is in the zone to get a legit QB next year, they should pull the trigger, they might be (two projected top 5 for now, and 4 or 5 projected 1st round QB's overall), in terms of OL, target the big free agent OL options available, nothing else really matters in terms of Free agency, inject them in, and if Howell is a hit, trade one of them on the market before the deadline in October '24. Howell is on an insanely cheap deal for another 2 years after this, the rook will have 4+1 rookie option if we draft one in round 1. It's simple enough. 

 

I don't think the chief example someone used is a great example. The Chiefs were really oddly erratic down the stretch before Crennel got fired and Reid came in, they were a playoff team, a .500ish team, then imploded to 2-14, Reid took the roster, gave it a replacement level solid floor QB, and they went right back to being solid, like they were two years before they bottomed out under Crennel and the reason he went with Alex Smith wasn't because he didn't want to take a QB, it was because the '13 and '14 QB classes were the worst QB classes in more than a decade. There was no QB to take unless you decided to force it. Nobody in the league forced it that year until Buffalo were idiots and took EJ Manuel who was bad at Florida state midway through round 1. '14 was equally bad, I don't remember anyone loving Bortles back then, his name alone screamed bust, but someone took him, then nobody took a QB again until later. '15 and '16 were better, the '15 class had Winston who looked like a franchise guy, and '16 had two guys with tools who weren't  no doubt about it types like previous guys (Stafford, Ryan, Newton, Luck) but were at the next tier after that. Then you had a run of strongly thought of classes '17, and '18, followed by '20 and '21 and '23 and '24. Of course we skipped all those classes and focused on '19 and '22 because of course we did, but I think we got a steal in Howell all the same, I'm just not sure what his ceiling was, at the time I liked him best after Willis, and viewed him as a Dalton+/Carr if he hit on his ceiling, but those guys don't win super bowls unless everything is perfect so.....

 

Basically, if the class has the QB, you pull the trigger, if it dont, you fix the rest of the roster, and pull the trigger when you see the QB. 

 

We still have a wide range of outcomes, we could go 0 for the rest of the season after that performance, in which case a top 2 pick is possible, more likely, we'll win a couple here and there and finish with 4-7 wins, picking between 4th and 12th. Giving us a chance to trade up, or to take Sanders or whomever is the other of the top 4 or 5 QB's. There are a couple of OL's projected to go in the top 15, so I suspect we'll consider OL if Howell continues playing fairly well in the various metrics. 

Edited October 6, 2023 by The Consigliere

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

CJ Stroud is playing behind 2nd/3rd string OL in Houston and is killing it.

 

Is CJ getting sacked and the pocket collapsing even if the opposing D is only rushing with 3?

[DJHJR86]

 

 

 

[Daniel.redskins]

It's such a shame that we are already talking about drafting another QB.  Don't get me wrong, if you have a chance for a blue chip QB, take it.  That was Ron's biggest mistake here.  We had a chance to improve the QB position in 2020 with Tua or Herbert, and missed. 

It's just unfortunate for Howell because I really think that he can be a good player in the league.  It is what is.......

Edited October 6, 2023 by Daniel.redskins

[DJHJR86]

 

Anyone else notice this?  Looked like they were arguing.  Was Brissett thinking he was going in for the 2 point conversion?

[PeterMP]

27 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

What does a new regime do?

 

They see we just wasted two top 50 picks on DB's, they aint going DB.

They know we wasted a top 20 pick on a luxury LB, no GM with sense is going LB in the top 10-15

They know we have loads of $$$ invested in the DL in Payne and Allen, they probably aren't going DL. 

 

I doubt the next regime very much considers what the previous regime does.  For example, if the next regime thinks they can get a shut down CB where they are drafting and there are no QBs, I suspect they will go CB and completely ignore the fact that previous regime spent to picks on CB.

 

(The LB thing is more generally true.  Across the NFL, the value of LBs is down and so picking an LB in the top 10-15 would be odd.)

 

They absolutely could go WR.  If they have a chance at a young AJ Brown and no good QB is there, they should go WR.  Neither Dotson or Mclaurin has shown enough that drafting a top flight WR wouldn't make sense.

 

The next regime is likely going to have their own values and have confidence in their own evaluations and those values, and pretty much ignore what the current group did.

[Skinsinparadise]

its just a little, so we should chill

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

he's played one more game.   But still fun fact..

 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[method man]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

Houston’s OL is legit better than ours. Their scheme also highlights Stroud’s strengths and Stroud is good at getting the ball out. 
 

You have to protect your QB. We lead the league in 5-man protections and our OL isn’t great. We are doing a disservice to whoever the QB would be.

Their line at full strength is better than ours but they have missed Howard all season and Tunsil has missed time as well. They are starting Josh Jones at guard

[DazedSkinsfan]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

I pretty much stopped listening to post game interviews a long time ago because it's always the same old coach speak every time, but has Ron ever once said that the coaching staff could do better?? Has he ever said he'll take the blame for the teams poor performance?? That one statistic of how many times this team has trailed in the 1st quarter is very telling of Ron and his staff. Better prepared teams doesn't have such stats.  It just seems like every quote I see from Ron always minimizes everything.  

[KDawg]

25 minutes ago, method man said:

Their line at full strength is better than ours but they have missed Howard all season and Tunsil has missed time as well. They are starting Josh Jones at guard

We’re starting Wylie…

[method man]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

We’re starting Wylie…

 

They are starting George Fant while Howard is out. Fant had a 48 PFF grade last year

[KDawg]

5 minutes ago, method man said:

 

They are starting George Fant while Howard is out. Fant had a 48 PFF grade last year

PFF grades = 💩 

[Llevron]

1 hour ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

Anyone else notice this?  Looked like they were arguing.  Was Brissett thinking he was going in for the 2 point conversion?

They have done this a few times now. I’m interested in what it’s about. 
 

I would hate for them to get Howell injured before this waste of a season is over. I don’t get why they don’t seem to care. If they are playing him this way because they are worried about their future more than his…..I would be thinking about firing them now honestly but how do you prove that? 

[FootballZombie]

26 minutes ago, Llevron said:

If they are playing him this way because they are worried about their future more than his…..I would be thinking about firing them now honestly but how do you prove that? 

 

Hmm...

How about calling a TO at the end of a half just to scrounge together a handful of free garbage yards

or better yet

How about aggressively pushing for pure padding points and stats at the expense of your players at the end of blowouts... Twice.

[Going Commando]

22 hours ago, PeterMP said:

 

Even this regime, they aren't going to lose their jobs because they waited to get Howell.  They are going to lose their jobs because they put a ton of resources into the defense, and it isn't very good, and the decisions they've made about the OL haven't panned out.  The fact that Haskins was here and QB for a year isn't really the critical thing.

 

They're going to lose their jobs exactly because they waited until year four to pick a path at QB and essentially start competing in earnest.  If these struggles on offense and defense were happening in the first year of their regime, they would get a huge runway of multiple years to work things out and develop Howell.  Failing in that first year with Haskins wouldn't have killed them if they had immediately recovered by drafting a QB and starting the building and development process in 21.  But they didn't.

 

I don't believe there is such a thing as waiting for the no-brainer prospect to come along.  The decisions about QB are never clean and there are always significant costs weighing in the cost-benefit analysis.  But the regimes that pan out are always decisive and committed to their QB decisions.  KC is an extremely unusual case where they were a high seed before they changed plans at QB and successfully upgraded at the position by trading up for a dicey project QB and developing him into a star.  Nothing about our situation is analogous to them at all.  We're going to have an entirely new regime come in here and essentially start a rebuild from scratch.  Do you want them to take a similar chance on waiting four years to find a path at QB as KC?

 

Kind of feels like anyone who could make the point you are trying to make hasn't really been paying attention to the way the Redskins/Commanders have operated the past 20 years.  Gibbs, Zorn, Shanahan, Gruden, and now Rivera all failed as a direct consequence of failing to make a strong plan at QB and form the essential HC-QB marriage in the grace period of their regime.  And in four of those five regimes, their first consequential mistake was attempting to salvage the previous regime's project QB.  It just leads to waffling and indecisiveness on the QB part of the rebuild, and no regime can ever afford to be indecisive about their QB.

 

Our next regime has to make a decision about QB year one.  If they choose Howell, then they need to be able to commit to him long term.  If they waffle on QB like Rivera did, then I promise you we will be looking for another head coach and GM in four years.