All things defense

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

For the volume stats being shown, we've played an extra game compared to some of these teams/players listed.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[tmandoug1]

Question:

 

Is this the perfect game for Chase to play or should we wait? 

[Tress Is The Way]

4 minutes ago, tmandoug1 said:

Question:

 

Is this the perfect game for Chase to play or should we wait? 

I think it may just be.. get him back into the swing of things.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

11 minutes ago, tmandoug1 said:

Question:

 

Is this the perfect game for Chase to play or should we wait? 

Limited snaps, but hell yeah - Davis Mills will just be standing there waiting for Chase to celebrate and get some juice back.

[wit33]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

Love this. I’m a bit bias due to waiting for this defense to become elite in the run game for awhile, then have everything else work around that. You must destroy the opponents run game and be sound in the back end to win with defense. Yes, defense can still win in the NFL. 
 

I haven't been this emotionally charged up about a “cause” (keeping the Dline together) for a long time. I like the idea of having a known commodity to get behind for next few years. I know I’m beating this point home to you a bit, but would love idea to market team heavily around this front four and be strategic with the cap around them. 

 

Great to see their actual play is going to cause the FO to give thought to going against the grain and putting historic amount of resources into the front 4. Makes too much sense to me all around, they’re all still super young and producing at a high level. 
 

 

13 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

There’s something to Forrest, he plays with a sense of calm and ferocious at the same time. This could be absolutely nothing, but how he calmly picked up the fumble further cemented the idea in my mind how cool, calm, and collected he seems out there. This seems to put him in positions to impact the game.

 

When I watch him play and tackle he seems like he’s 6’2 225, I actually looked him up to double check and learned he’s 6’0 200 (still solid). The way he goes through people makes me think of Sean Taylor in CERTAIN moments. A guy I’m going to plan to watch a few plays a game now. 

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Get these stats away from his agent. Was hoping to get a discount due to sack numbers. Lol

[Renegade7]

2 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Get these stats away from his agent. Was hoping to get a discount due to sack numbers. Lol

 

That's nothing, wait until Chase comes back and all the sudden the extra something other end leads to him getting home more.

 

We need a QB on a rookie contract in the worst way right now, Sweat was someone I was ready to trade in order to pay Payne.  It's jus going to get harder from there picking and choosing who to keep on this defense.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Love this. I’m a bit bias due to waiting for this defense to become elite in the run game for awhile, then have everything else work around that. You must destroy the opponents run game and be sound in the back end to win with defense. Yes, defense can still win in the NFL. 
 

I haven't been this emotionally charged up about a “cause” (keeping the Dline together) for a long time. I like the idea of having a known commodity to get behind for next few years. I know I’m beating this point home to you a bit, but would love idea to market team heavily around this front four and be strategic with the cap around them. 

 

Great to see their actual play is going to cause the FO to give thought to going against the grain and putting historic amount of resources into the front 4. Makes too much sense to me all around, they’re all still super young and producing at a high level. 
 

 

There’s something to Forrest, he plays with a sense of calm and ferocious at the same time. This could be absolutely nothing, but how he calmly picked up the fumble further cemented the idea in my mind how cool, calm, and collected he seems out there. This seems to put him in positions to impact the game.

 

When I watch him play and tackle he seems like he’s 6’2 225, I actually looked him up to double check and learned he’s 6’0 200 (still solid). The way he goes through people makes me think of Sean Taylor in CERTAIN moments. A guy I’m going to plan to watch a few plays a game now. 

Get these stats away from his agent. Was hoping to get a discount due to sack numbers. Lol

 

Yeah this defense is for real -- not to jinx it.

 

Forrest is emerging so is Jamin Davis so is St. Juste.  Future on defense looks bright IMO.

 

I think Montez Sweat is somewhat underrated by some in this fanbase.   You talk about run defense -- the people at PFF would say he's the best run defender on this D line.  Borderline elite run defender.  He's not just a pass rusher but a complete player.   Yeah I'd love his sack numbers to be much better but the dude IMO makes an impact.

 

 

[Renegade7]

@Skinsinparadise it took me up until your post above to forgive Sweat for that nonsense season last year.

 

Predicting 20+ sacks between him and Young?  His backups doing noticeably better at run defense and contain then he didto point our run d looked better while he was out hurt?

 

He's like a better superior version of Preston Smith right now, all that sounds good, but Payne is leading the team in sacks right now from the DT position when that's something Sweat should be doing from DE.

 

So while all that being true is nice, it doesn't change in my mind who to keep if we can only pick one.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

@Skinsinparadise it took me up until your post above to forgive Sweat for that nonsense season last year.

 

Predicting 20+ sacks between him and Young?  His backups doing noticeably better at run defense and contain then he didto point our run d looked better while he was out hurt?

 

He's like a better superior version of Preston Smith right now, all that sounds good, but Payne is leading the team in sacks right now from the DT position when that's something Sweat should be doing from DE.

 

So while all that being true is nice, it doesn't change in my mind who to keep if we can only pick one.

 

I don't have a hardcore position about which one to lose.  I used to be OK with that notion of losing 1.  But I am now in the camp of keep all 4.    

Edited November 16, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

Stopping the run is becoming a big deal again, ramping up the importance of run stoppers and versatile players on the D line.  Mike LB.  Buffalo nickle, etc.   Stopping the run out of nickel.

 

As @Going Commando talked about here and i have in another thread, the two deep safety defense which is in vogue right now makes it easier to run. 

 

Watching that segment it was said that gap runs are up over zone.  That also is an indicator that the interior D line is central. 

 

 

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[philibusters]

4 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

@Skinsinparadise 

 

He's like a better superior version of Preston Smith right now, all that sounds good, but Payne is leading the team in sacks right now from the DT position when that's something Sweat should be doing from DE.

 

Sacks are only one measurement that reflects how good a pass rush is.  PFF has Sweat with 25 total pressures that include 3 sacks, 10 QB hits, and 12 QB hurries.   They have Payne with 18 total pressures which includes 4 sacks, 5 QB hits, and 9 hurries.  I do think QB pressures are a more consistent stat game to game and season to season than sacks.   Sometimes you get to the QB and hit him, but the QB got rid of the ball in 2.2 seconds so you only get a hit rather than a pressure.  On times the QB starts scramblign and the person who gets the sack, lost the rep, but gets a sack 5.5 seconds after the snap.

 

Both Payne and Sweat are playing well.   But I wouldn't hold it against Sweat that Payne leads to the teams in sacks.  Sweat is tied with Jonathan Allen for the team lead in total QB pressures with 25.  Payne is in third with 18 and Efe Obada is in fourth with 11 with James Smith-Wiliams and Jamin Davis tied for 5th with 7 a piece.

[Renegade7]

16 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I don't have a hardcore position about which one to lose.  I used to be OK with that notion of losing 1.  But I am now in the camp of keep all 4.    

 

Maaaan...does NFL have a luxury tax I don't know about? 

 

This why im getting angrier and angrier we don't have a rookie QB we can build around or plan to get one anytime soon, it is so hard to do that with these veteran QBs we keep trading for, giving extensions, or rumored to be trying to trade for and sign this offseason.

 

For example, Derek Carr's cap hit next year is nearly double Wentz, and our cap space could barely handle the Wentz addition to point we had to start letting people go I really don't think we wanted to to make room for it (let alone not be able to improve the oline after we did it).

Edited November 16, 2022 by Renegade7

[Voice_of_Reason]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I don't have a hardcore position about which one to lose.  I used to be OK with that notion of losing 1.  But I am now in the camp of keep all 4.    

Standig has said over and over he doesn't think it's possible under the cap.  He's been championing that mantra for more than a year.

 

I think with the ownership situation where it is, they need to franchise Payne, pick up Young's 5th year option (assuming they don't know something we don't and believe he's done because of the injury) and just let next year play out with the same group and leave it up to the new regime what to do after that.

 

Payne is the only one they HAVE to make a decision on, apart from Young's option, this year.  I get they could make a really cap-friendly deal with Payne by signing him to a 5 year deal and pushing a ton of money into voided years.  But they could also do that after the 2023 season with both Sweat and Payne if they wanted to.  I'm not sure it really helps them from a cap situation to have them staggered.  

 

If I had to choose between Payne and Sweat, it would entirely depend on the health/projection for Young.  If Young is going to return to rookie form, then I'd be ok letting Sweat go and keep Payne.  If he's not, well, actually then I'd keep both and just let Young exit stage left eventually.  I guess that means I'd keep Payne almost no matter what.  

[Renegade7]

5 minutes ago, philibusters said:

 

Sacks are only one measurement that reflects how good a pass rush is. 

 

That is true, but I haven't seen a correlation that suggest players also with lots of sacks don't also have high numbers in the other categories you mentioned. 

 

And that matters because actually getting home is the game changer and key point in money negotiations.

 

Additionally and to add to what @Voice_of_Reason is saying, The second I believe we can get the same or better from Young then Sweat again, Sweat should go on the trade block, imo.

 

You don't need two when we need so much help on the oline, especially if we insist on having a veteran QB contract on the books.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Renegade7

[Skinsinparadise]

10 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Maaaan...does NFL have a luxury tax I don't know about? 

 

This whybim getting angrier and angrier we don't have a rookie QB we can build around or plan to get one anytime soon, it is so hard to do that with these veteran QBs we keep trading for, giving extensions, or rumored to be trying to trade for and sign this offseason.

 

For example, Derek Carr's cap hit next year is nearly double Wentz, and our cap space could barely handle the Wentz addition to point we had to start letting people go I really don't think we wanted to to make room for it (let alone not be able to improve the oline after we did it).

 

The cap is supposed to soar if I recall in 2 years when the TV deals kick in.  Some teams like the Eagles are backloading contracts.

 

When some say the cap is a myth, I disagree with that point but there is a major loophole with the cap which is backloading and prorating contracts.   To do that you need owners with a lot of cash because the guaranteed money is put in an escrow.

 

Most agree with me on this point, some really push back hard here on this point though -- but really almost everyone who covers this team and some national reporters have talked about Dan isn't hot right now with his cash flow and it limits them to play this game.  Mike Jones in pariticular has hit hard multiple times that his sources around the league have told him Dan has some serious cash flow issues right now -- by that I don't mean in layman's terms but in billionaire teams -- a lot of debt and a lot of his wealth is leveraged according to him and plenty of others

11 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Standig has said over and over he doesn't think it's possible under the cap.  He's been championing that mantra for more than a year.

 

 

I know it.  And not just him. I once agreed with it from a position asset standpoint but I changed my mind.

 

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

I'm definitely one of the biggest Payne fans on this board, so of course I'd hate to see him walk, but the fact those two played together in college and now the pros and how well they're coming on together, it would suck to lose him. Our run defense would suck like it did the year before we drafted him.

 

Also, guys like Wise, Toohill, JSW are fantastic and then to get Mathis back really provides a deep bench who can get after the QB pretty well.

[Voice_of_Reason]

26 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Additionally and to add to what @Voice_of_Reason is saying, The second I believe we can get the same or better from Young then Sweat again, Sweat should go on the trade block, imo.

 

You don't need two when we need so much help on the oline, especially if we insist on having a veteran QB contract on the books.

I will say, I don't think the two are related.  I think you can upgrade the OL AND keep whoever you want to.  

 

Honestly, the OL shouldn't be that hard to fix.  Though, it would drive some of the draftnicks crazy, but if you spent a mid to late first round pick on an interior OL, and signed a starting guard and Center, you'd be fine, assuming the interior OL isn't a bust.  The draftnicks will try to preach positional value, which I hear to a point: I wouldn't take a punter in the first round.  But interior OL is going to turn into a premier position with the emergence of more interior pass rushers.  

 

The tackle positions are fine for now.  Leno/Lucas/Cosmi are more than passable at Tackle.  It's the interior which is a mess.  And a competent FO should be able to fix that in one off-season without spending too much cap room on it.  

[wit33]

42 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

@Skinsinparadise it took me up until your post above to forgive Sweat for that nonsense season last year.

 

Predicting 20+ sacks between him and Young?  His backups doing noticeably better at run defense and contain then he didto point our run d looked better while he was out hurt?

 

He's like a better superior version of Preston Smith right now, all that sounds good, but Payne is leading the team in sacks right now from the DT position when that's something Sweat should be doing from DE.

 

So while all that being true is nice, it doesn't change in my mind who to keep if we can only pick one.

I really can’t break down Sweats level of pass rushing and what number of sacks he should have, but it certainly appears the front four rush as an entire unit with idea suffocate the QB, maintain rush lanes, and meet at the QB. It’s been refreshing to not have the QB run through A and B gaps situationally in games. 
 

Maybe sacrificing some individual numbers for the unit? Total speculation and I realize Sweat has failed to have “big” sack total to date. 
 

I love the idea of having freaks at al four positions, especially on the outside allowing outside run angles to be eviscerated. The only time I get to see Sweats 4.4 speed is when eliminating a QB run angle to the sideline, it’s a beautiful thing to see a throw away in those moments. 
 

26 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

That is true, but I haven't seen a correlation that suggest players also with lots of sacks don't also have high numbers in the other categories you mentioned. 

 

And that matters because actually getting home is the game changer and key point in money negotiations.

 

Additionally and to add to what @Voice_of_Reason is saying, The second I believe we can get the same or better from Young then Sweat again, Sweat should go on the trade block, imo.

 

You don't need two when we need so much help on the oline, especially if we insist on having a veteran QB contract on the books.

 

Develop, develop, and be cost efficient with Oline. Dedicate major draft capital for next 2-3 seasons while paying obscene money to veteran DLineman the next 3-4 years. 
 

Sweat married yet with any kids lol? We need some alternative variables to factor in this decision. He doesn’t seem like he is.

[Renegade7]

8 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I will say, I don't think the two are related.  I think you can upgrade the OL AND keep whoever you want to.  

 

Honestly, the OL shouldn't be that hard to fix.  Though, it would drive some of the draftnicks crazy, but if you spent a mid to late first round pick on an interior OL, and signed a starting guard and Center, you'd be fine, assuming the interior OL isn't a bust.  The draftnicks will try to preach positional value, which I hear to a point: I wouldn't take a punter in the first round.  But interior OL is going to turn into a premier position with the emergence of more interior pass rushers.  

 

The tackle positions are fine for now.  Leno/Lucas/Cosmi are more than passable at Tackle.  It's the interior which is a mess.  And a competent FO should be able to fix that in one off-season without spending too much cap room on it.  

 

You say this, man, and I look at Flowers being released as a reminder that they don't stay on rookie contracts forever either, and that was a more then reaonable contract for what he was in light of what we meed right now. 

 

Oline has played better, they shouldn't have to be limited to drafting to improve this line, specifically at gaurd where I agree the ultimate weakness is still.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Renegade7

[Warhead36]

We need to resign Payne. I really don't like the "you can't pay the entire DL" argument. There will be plenty of money and the contracts will be pretty staggered out. I'm not in the business of letting really good players walk away.

[Renegade7]

@wit33

 

I feel where you coming from, long-term I get @Skinsinparadise that we could survive this with huge leaps in the cap coming.

 

Having said that, if we serious about keeping the dline together, have to one accept we can't afford comparable talented players on the oline and rotating out oline starters with rookie contracts instead extending any of them or filling with comparable veterans when neccesary makes me nervous.

 

The reason why I bring this up is folks like Davis, Curl, Forrest, and St.Juste are gonna wanna get paid, too, and we're discussing a huge amount of resources being tied to the dline with a coaching staff that seems deathly allergic to have a rookie QB contract on the roster.

 

Like...exactly what I was afraid of trying to go on a diet on the oline to address the sudden change in our cap situation actually happened.  So they haven't earned benefit of the doubt from me on how to navigate this reality yet, first test already epic fail.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Renegade7

[Koolblue13]

7 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

We need to resign Payne. I really don't like the "you can't pay the entire DL" argument. There will be plenty of money and the contracts will be pretty staggered out. I'm not in the business of letting really good players walk away.

The elite Dline is the way the NFL is going. It allows us to run 4 DL and 1 LBer, without giving up the run defense and keep the secondary loaded. We're hitting on late rounders in the secondary, which will help the defensive pay roll stay balanced.

[D’Pablo]

Would this team still benefit from having an elite corner or has St. Juste developed enough that we're okay? What upgrades are needed? MLB?