All things defense

[skinny21]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

@Zim489 Maybe another to add to your “good players” list…

[Warhead36]

Curl, Forrest, and St. Juste has me excited about the future of our secondary.

[Zim489]

20 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

@Zim489 Maybe another to add to your “good players” list…

Let’s see what happens when a new staff is in place that actually can build a back 7. Currently there’s no FS on the future roster. This Buffalo nickel is because of their inability to get LBs or CBs correct. 

[ColonialWBSkinsFan]

15 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Curl, Forrest, and St. Juste has me excited about the future of our secondary.

 

Legion of Boom 2.0  ??

[goskins10]

2 hours ago, Zim489 said:

Let’s see what happens when a new staff is in place that actually can build a back 7. Currently there’s no FS on the future roster. This Buffalo nickel is because of their inability to get LBs or CBs correct. 

 

That is exactly what THIS staff is doing. 🙂  LOL  They are building with young guys a strong D including a back 7. St Juste, Curl, Davis, Forrest, all young guys learning and getting better each game. FS is a need and they could use another LB but they are still building. They may not be here to finish the job but I hope the new owner doesn't go backwards just for the sake of change. 

 

I was wrong about JDR. I wanted him fired last season and to start this season. But he has done a nice job of making adjustments and moving the pieces around to field a legitimate top 10 to 15 def that is just gettting better. Minn and Philly have legit offenses. They did a pretty good job on both. They played well enough to beat Minn if TH had not coughed up a fur ball. And last night they made Philly throw and for the most part and held them in check or created TOs. There is still a long way to go for the D but you can see the players starting to get it and fly around the ball. 

 

As for paying Payne, in general you probably do not pay 2 DTs big money. But those two are legitimate dominating together. You give yourself away when you talk about you hated Payne at every level. He was not my first choice in that draft for us either. I wanted Derwin James in the worst way. Having said that, Payne has out-paced expectations despite your critisism which is born more out of not wanting to admit you were wrong than anything he has actually done on the field. He is much more than just OK. You are looking through skewed lens. 

 

Ultimately it will depend on how Chase Young does when he comes back though. I think they want to keep 3 of Allen, Payne, Sweat, and Young. And the CAP could easily take that if you are on a rookie contract for a QB, which is where they should be looking at for a QB. 

Edited November 16, 2022 by goskins10

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[method man]

17 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

That is exactly what THIS staff is doing. 🙂  LOL  They are building with young guys a strong D including a back 7. St Juste, Curl, Davis, Forrest, all young guys learning and getting better each game. FS is a need and they could use another LB but they are still building. They may not be here to finish the job but I hope the new owner doesn't go backwards just for the sake of change. 

 

I was wrong about JDR. I wanted him fired last season and to start this season. But he has done a nice job of making adjustments and moving the pieces around to field and legitimate top 10 to 15 def that is just gettting better. Minn and Philly havfe legit offenses. They did a pretty good job on both. They played well enough to beat Minn if TH had not coughed up a fur ball. And last night they made Philly throw and for the most part held them in check or created TOs. There is still a long way to go for the D but you can see the players starting to get and fly around the ball. 

 

As for paying Payne, in general you probably do not pay 2 DTs big money. But those two are legitimate dominating together. You give yourself away when you talk about you hated Payne at every level. He was not my first choice in that draft for us either. I wanted Derwin James in the worst way. Having said that, Paytne has out paced expectations despite your critisism which is born more out of not wanting to admit you were wrong than anything he has actually done on the field. He is much more than just OK. You are looking through skewed lens. 

 

Ultimately it will depend on hoiw Chase Young does when he comes back though. I think they want to keep 3 of Allen, Payne, Sweat, and Young. And the CAP could easily take that if you are on a rookie contract for a QB, which is where they should be looking at for a QB. 

 

I've mentioned before that I want to see more 5 man front or 3-4 and let Mathis, Payne and Allen man the line. Trade Sweat and move Davis to the outside as rush linebacker. Could be a poor man's TJ Watt where he could be the rare complete 3-4 OLB. You can have Holcomb man the middle with another person with one of them subbing out for Forrest as buffalo nickel

[HigSkin]

Orlovsky did a bit on NFL Live tonight about stats on league wide averages run versus pass.  League passing averages are 11 yards per completions lowest since 1933 versus league wide running is 4.5 yards per carry which is highest in NFL history.  Makes the scoring at an all time low.

 

I suppose you could take from that, we're going to need a really stout defensive line and need to get our key space eaters resigned.

 

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by HigSkin

[skinny21]

41 minutes ago, method man said:

 

I've mentioned before that I want to see more 5 man front or 3-4 and let Mathis, Payne and Allen man the line. Trade Sweat and move Davis to the outside as rush linebacker. Could be a poor man's TJ Watt where he could be the rare complete 3-4 OLB. You can have Holcomb man the middle with another person with one of them subbing out for Forrest as buffalo nickel

I can see that line of thinking.  Young and Davis at OLB, Butler/Curl/Forrest on the back end, and Ridgeway can sub at NT.  Of course, we’re left (once again) trying to find another middle linebacker…

 

Not sure about messing with what’s working though.

 

Side note, I like that we have young guys Wildgoose, Fields-Castro and Butler trying to develop/earn time. 

[IrepDC]

9 hours ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

Not doubting, just curious about a source/article that might explain the switch away from Curl more.

Jonathan Allen says it in his post game interview when asked about Jamin.

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, HigSkin said:

Orlovsky did a bit on NFL Live tonight about stats on league wide averages run versus pass.  League passing averages are 11 yards per completions lowest since 1933 versus league wide running is 4.5 yards per carry which is highest in NFL history.  Makes the scoring at an all time low.

 

I suppose you could take from that, we're going to need a really stout defensive line and need to get our key space eaters resigned.

 

 

 

It's the product of the ascendance of two deep shell defenses.  Used to be a niche philosophy and almost everyone played cover 3, but the natural response to everyone playing two deep is to run at the light box, especially if teams only play three down linemen.

[HigSkin]

34 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

It's the product of the ascendance of two deep shell defenses.  Used to be a niche philosophy and almost everyone played cover 3, but the natural response to everyone playing two deep is to run at the light box, especially if teams only play three down linemen.

 

Yup, they talked about it going back to "old school" defenses.

[method man]

2 hours ago, skinny21 said:

I can see that line of thinking.  Young and Davis at OLB, Butler/Curl/Forrest on the back end, and Ridgeway can sub at NT.  Of course, we’re left (once again) trying to find another middle linebacker…

 

Not sure about messing with what’s working though.

 

Side note, I like that we have young guys Wildgoose, Fields-Castro and Butler trying to develop/earn time. 

I think they’ve done well in 5 man front this season when they’ve played it

[MrJL]

If this D actually adds getting turnovers to it's bag of tricks we are in very good shape

[Warhead36]

23 minutes ago, MrJL said:

If this D actually adds getting turnovers to it's bag of tricks we are in very good shape

You need to score more points to force teams into being more aggressive to create takeaways. 

[MrJL]

4 hours ago, Zim489 said:

Let’s see what happens when a new staff is in place that actually can build a back 7. Currently there’s no FS on the future roster. This Buffalo nickel is because of their inability to get LBs or CBs correct. 

 

Darrick Forrest is excelling at FS and the majority of modern teams  play five DBs most of the time

Just now, Warhead36 said:

You need to score more points to force teams into being more aggressive to create takeaways. 

 

that is only true of interceptions

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Standig

 

 

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[skinny21]

15 hours ago, Zim489 said:

Let’s see what happens when a new staff is in place that actually can build a back 7. Currently there’s no FS on the future roster. This Buffalo nickel is because of their inability to get LBs or CBs correct. 

Not necessarily disagreeing here, but…

1) Collins moving to the BN role was both to get Curl on the field and because Jamin was underdeveloped

2) Forrest has earned more time, yet they want to keep McCain/Curl on the field over a nickel corner, so they move McCain to that spot

3) St Juste was the nickel corner until they benched Jackson

4) Forrest played FS this past game when McCain went to nickel (maybe last game as well?).  Does he have a future there?  I don’t know.

5) Percy “rocket butt” Butler has taken snaps here and there, I could see him developing into a starting caliber FS in his 2nd year (too early to tell of course)

So yes, they’ve moved guys around to get their best group on the field.  And yes, it’s probably fair to say they’ve done this at least in part because of issues at LB and corner, but I think it also gives them a bit more flexibility as well.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

[FLSkinz83]

They were right in not bringing back Collins.

 

Seems like Fuller has played much better since WJ3 left.  

[Skinsinparadise]

15 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

 

 

As for paying Payne, in general you probably do not pay 2 DTs big money. But those two are legitimate dominating together.

 

Agree.

 

I think the game changer for Payne is he's getting sacks now.  That's not been his thing in either Alabama or through most of his NFL career.  Pressures sometimes but not sacks.   IMO he is a force this season playing 3 technique.  And he's good playing 0-1 if he must.  Versatile.  I am gathering having Ridgeway who is more of a true 0-1 technique tackle has freed up Payne even more.   

 

My point is teams rarely pay big money to old school style run stuffing DTs if that's really their whole game.  Dudes like D. Harrison (snacks) aren't valued the way they once were.   But if you can bring pressure from the DT spot I do think it fits the modern NFL perfectly.   Payne IMO hovered around those two categories.  He certainly wasn't just a pure run stuffer.  But is he explosive enough as a pass rusher to treat him as that type of player?  IMO that was debatable before but not debatable now. 

 

I was on the fence (leaning no) as to keeping Payne versus trading him for a good pick in the past.  Now, I am 100% on bringing him back.  He's a stud this season.  He's been good leading up to this season but this season he's exploded.  I'll give Logan Paulsen some props, he said in the preseason-camp you could see Payne was practicing with incredible fire, his oomph level was palpable big time.

 

Yeah I was never more pissed in a draft than when they took Payne.  It's not that I didn't like Payne.  I liked him.  But I loved Derwin James.  Would I still take James over Payne.  Yes, easily.  James is an All Pro and one of the best players in the league IMO -- leader, too.  But that doesn't influence what I think of Payne at the moment.  He's having a monster season IMO. 

10 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

They were right in not bringing back Collins.

 

Seems like Fuller has played much better since WJ3 left.  

 

Oddly they also seem right about swapping essentially Obada for Settle as to Buffalo.

 

And Toohill has more than handled the role that Ionnaidis had.

 

On defense some of their at times moves that seemed questionable have worked out -- alas if I can only say the same about O line.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[lavar1156]

Do we let Sweat walk after the season? I think we have to keep Payne over Sweat if we have to pick one.

[HigSkin]

5 minutes ago, lavar1156 said:

Do we let Sweat walk after the season? I think we have to keep Payne over Sweat if we have to pick one.

 

They can pick up Sweats 5th year ~$10.8 mil option next year.  Payne is the FA next year.

 

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by HigSkin

[skinny21]

Not the thread to expound on it, but the offense sustaining drives (TOP) is surely pretty crucial here.  Payne played what, 88% of snaps?  Obviously it’s a multi-pronged issue - losing backups Mathis and Wise, Payne looks like he’s in excellent shape, the offense giving the D some rest, and the back 7 helping limit yardage and get some key PDs.  I assume the same applies to Allen, though I haven’t looked at his snap count.