All things defense

[Warhead36]

What's annoying is apparently Fabian Moreau has been killing it with the Giants as an outside CB. IIRC he played okay in 2020 but Rivera let him go. Imagine if we had just kept him instead of overpaying for Jackson. We could have two real good outside CBs with him and St. Juste and Fuller in the slot and have more cap space to boot. 

 

You win some you lose some I guess.

[Zim489]

4 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

I get into this all the time in the QB thread, but I'll stress it here. Why does the round drafted matter? We have Holmes from last year's 7th and will probably draft more. But we've shown an ability to find corners later in the draft so I would not say we're dependent on that. 

You want to put your best assets into the prime, impactful, positions. I mean yes you want to find an all pro with your 7th rounder but thats not likely to happen. 

 

The latest stats I could find with ease were from 2019 but Defensive back All pros have the 4th highest median draft pick at 19th. 60.5% of all pros being first rounders. 

 

Its not about JUST finding Corners but elite ones. You want your best players at the most important positions. So yes the rounds matter.

[Thinking Skins]

6 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

What's annoying is apparently Fabian Moreau has been killing it with the Giants as an outside CB. IIRC he played okay in 2020 but Rivera let him go. Imagine if we had just kept him instead of overpaying for Jackson. We could have two real good outside CBs with him and St. Juste and Fuller in the slot and have more cap space to boot. 

 

You win some you lose some I guess.

I mean I understand. He wanted his own guys. There was a lot to judge and it's not like Moreau was elite here. It even took him a while to catch on there. 

[Thinking Skins]

Just now, Zim489 said:

You want to put your best assets into the prime, impactful, positions. I mean yes you want to find an all pro with your 7th rounder but thats not likely to happen. 

 

The latest stats I could find with ease were from 2019 but Defensive back All pros have the 4th highest median draft pick at 19th. 60.5% of all pros being first rounders. 

 

Its not about JUST finding Corners but elite ones. You want your best players at the most important positions. So yes the rounds matter.

I mean that's true for every position. I'm always taking about how we can find steals on QBs by drafting late. Beathard built a dynasty by drafting guys late. 

 

Kyle Hamilton is a baller but is he really better than Curl or Forrest? It's about using our resources to the best. I'm always about trading down to get more shots. We see it with Young. I wasn't big on him but I didn't have anybody else I wanted. I just believe in the philosophy of trading down to get more picks. I like 12 or so. Obviously more high picks is better and there is a point where you can ask what's the point of having 8 picks in the 6th and 7th vs just signing UDFAs, but what happens is sometimes guys drop for whatever reason (like Howell), sometimes it's a small school thing where only a few teams have scouted him, sometimes it's a maturity thing or something else. But these guys exist. 

 

Before the rookie pay scale I was all about trading out of the first every year because the commitment was too much. Now I'm off that but I still think there's more value is the second and third with those guys who drop out of the first. 

 

[Zim489]

2 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Beathard

Well I see where the root of the issue starts. Drafting is completely different than those days. Really it’s different from 2011. Anything draft wise prior to 2011 is irrelevant. As you said with the rookie wage scale changed things.
 

But your whole argument is really talking two different points. While like I said yes it’s nice to get guys like Curl, late round studs, the odds of them aren’t something to be banked on. The rounds you take guys do matter. 

[Thinking Skins]

8 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

Well I see where the root of the issue starts. Drafting is completely different than those days. Really it’s different from 2011. Anything draft wise prior to 2011 is irrelevant. As you said with the rookie wage scale changed things.
 

But your whole argument is really talking two different points. While like I said yes it’s nice to get guys like Curl, late round studs, the odds of them aren’t something to be banked on. The rounds you take guys do matter. 

I disagree completely. Outside of the Rams, most successful teams are built though the draft. The salary cap and free agency tried to change things but it didn't really. The rookie wage scale is in the same platform. It helps with the draft and especially the first rounders, but it only helps get first rounders under the cap. Lower round picks are still a steal and the more lower round steals you have on your roster the better you're likely to be. That's always been the case and still is. Lol at our defense now. We found a steal in Ridgeway to replace Mathis and didn't miss a beat. 

 

We still have Holmes and the FS who aren't playing much on defense. We're thin at OL, LB and TE (production wise) and those are areas I'd addess. 

[Zim489]

It’s still two different things you’re talking about. Steal are always fantastic. No one will argue that but that’s the reason they are called steals. You still have to take guys at in each round unless you trade down like you said. Sometimes that’s the best option. Other times it’s not even available at all. So if I’m stuck at 15 or what ever I’m still going to put my best assets to the most impactful positions. 
 

That’s the argument we were talking about 

[Thinking Skins]

5 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

It’s still two different things you’re talking about. Steal are always fantastic. No one will argue that but that’s the reason they are called steals. You still have to take guys at in each round unless you trade down like you said. Sometimes that’s the best option. Other times it’s not even available at all. So if I’m stuck at 15 or what ever I’m still going to put my best assets to the most impactful positions. 
 

That’s the argument we were talking about 

You mention impact but it's all about value. It's about who's available vs who's left. In a draft deep for DL, I'm not going DL at 15 when I know there is no other OT after this one. 

[Zim489]

So you started off with why does round matter. I explained it matters. You went off on a tangent that didn’t make any sense. I reiterated my explanation while incorporating your follow up. Now you follow up with a completely different tangent. 
 

What?

[CommanderInTheRye]

 

Commanders’ secondary realignment gets breakout star more playing time

 

The Washington Commanders’ defense is on an absolute tear. Over the last five games, the Commanders rank third in points allowed and sixth in total yards. While the defensive line has spearheaded that turnaround, the secondary has quietly made notable strides since the benching of William Jackson III.

 

That’s not to say Jackson was the lone problem with the defense, but his benching and eventual trade allowed Jack Del Rio to get more creative with his personnel.

 

Initially, the defensive coordinator experimented with Rachad Wildgoose in the slot, and Benjamin St-Juste joining Kendall Fuller on the boundary. That experiment eventually flamed out. Since then, Washington has tried out Danny Johnson in the slot with Kam Curl, Bobby McCain, and Darrick Forrest rotating at safety.

 

With Curl and Forrest performing like two of the NFL’s elite safeties, Ron Rivera confirmed a permanent realignment on Friday. Moving forward, McCain will be the team’s full-time slot cornerback.

 

While McCain has performed well in the nickel, the change allows more playing time for Forrest, who pulled off an incredible interception of Jalen Hurts in Washington’s upset of the Eagles on Monday Night Football in Week 10.

 

The Commanders will start Bobby McCain in the slot, allowing Darrick Forrest to play more snaps at safety.

What a genius move by Rivera and Del Rio. Entering Week 11, Forrest is Pro Football Focus’ second-highest-graded safety. Only teammate Kam Curl has a higher player grade, and Forrest actually flaunts the highest coverage grade at the position with a sublime 84.8 mark.

 

 

[Koolblue13]

Edited November 19, 2022 by Koolblue13

[Thinking Skins]

3 hours ago, Zim489 said:

So you started off with why does round matter. I explained it matters. You went off on a tangent that didn’t make any sense. I reiterated my explanation while incorporating your follow up. Now you follow up with a completely different tangent. 
 

What?

I started off saying that I wouldn't be so pressed to get a corner in the first because we've found value picks in the secondary late in the draft. I.E. We seem to be good at scouting that area late in the draft. So even if CB is a need with an "aging" Fuller I would think that maybe Holmes / Wildgoose / Castro-Fields could turn up good or we continue finding gems in the draft. 

 

 

But yes that was just the focus on CB. In general I'm pro trading down and defining BPA based on "value differential" basically how good is this player vs the next X persons we could pick at this position, and are they likely to be at our next pick. Its why I liked the trade down in the 2022 draft. What is the difference between London / Wilson / Olave / Doctson? I thought it was negligible. All had ups and downs and since we had Terry I wasn't big on getting any of them initially. But with the trade down, the question becomes Doctson / Burks / Watson and the dropoff was sharp so I could understand the pick more even if I didn't think WR was as much of a need. Same thing goes with Mathis. I wasn't a big fan of his but he was the last DT taken until Travis Jones in the third and I'm guessing they thought there was a dropoff in play. 

 

The question is if we had more picks would we have drafted Ridgeway in the 5th as welll? Doesn't matter cause we got him. Would we have drafted Castro Fields? We got him too but the whole thing is that I don't think we need to settle in and say what positions we need high because how the draft breaks down and the runs on players are hard to predict. Could I see the value in a high CB? Yep. I wouldn't have minded Stingley, Sauce, Elam, or a few others, but I wasn't gung ho on any of them. I rarely am. I am normally a guy who sees that we (most years) have a team without many GLARING weaknesses but lots of areas that could use improvement / depth. So I like just getting as many shots at the potential lottery picks to come in here and try to turn it around. 

 

[Cooleyfan1993]

So, we have until Wednesday to activate chase young, or he’s out for the season….the next time they practice will be Wednesday. If they haven’t felt ok about activating him yet, how is 1 more practice going to change that? Just feels like this is going to end in him not being activated  so we’ll go into his 4th season having only 1 good year, 1 bad year, and 1 year of him having played zero games. 
 

 

[Est.1974]

4 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Who cares what the Eagles are doing now.

[Hoover-ball]

10 minutes ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

So, we have until Wednesday to activate chase young, or he’s out for the season….the next time they practice will be Wednesday. If they haven’t felt ok about activating him yet, how is 1 more practice going to change that? Just feels like this is going to end in him not being activated  so we’ll go into his 4th season having only 1 good year, 1 bad year, and 1 year of him having played zero games. 
 

 

They can activate him but not have him suit up. They have not felt he was ready for game speed and did not HAVE to activate him so why should they. They will early next week and then see by Saturday if he is ready to be active for game day.

[wit33]

On 11/18/2022 at 12:12 PM, Zim489 said:

This is where you lose me. Just too much capital into one position group. Especially once you get deep into the playoffs where a Good QB and a Good coaching staff can scheme out a Defensive line. Spread that money around to your LBs, secondary, and offense instead. 

100% own it’s a radical idea to keep all 4 and I really don’t have the spectrum of knowledge relating to cap and projecting it out over years. Sure, I have some knowledge and pay enough attention to how cap is allocated to believe maybe it can be done with some outside the box thinking.

 

I’m intrigued with idea to have a dominant Dline over next 3-4 years and attempting to build around that. Many will place paradigms of how other teams have allocated cap over the years, but having 4 really young freaks who have performed at various high levels is unique and requires innovative thinking. If all are extended they will play the entirety of their respective contracts in the prime of their careers. 
 

Philosophically having a dominant Dline aligns with my football truths; Obliterating the run game and suffocating the opposing QB is second in value to having an elite QB. 

 

Having known high performing players I want the organization to prioritize. Keep and treasure the talent. Maximize their window and get playoff at bats. The idea you must spread it to just spread it out baffles me. Go for it, go against the trend.
 

Following the historical formulas to build a team which most fail at or struggle to escape mediocrity is brutal to follow and support. 

Edited November 19, 2022 by wit33

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

6 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

What's annoying is apparently Fabian Moreau has been killing it with the Giants as an outside CB. IIRC he played okay in 2020 but Rivera let him go. Imagine if we had just kept him instead of overpaying for Jackson. We could have two real good outside CBs with him and St. Juste and Fuller in the slot and have more cap space to boot. 

 

You win some you lose some I guess.

 

Huh, haven't seen their games so didn't realize that. What's wild is he was even worse with Atlanta than with us, but somehow found a way to function well this season? I guess go him for saving his career. Wonder what the method was.

[FLSkinz83]

12 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

I get into this all the time in the QB thread, but I'll stress it here. Why does the round drafted matter? We have Holmes from last year's 7th and will probably draft more. But we've shown an ability to find corners later in the draft so I would not say we're dependent on that. 

 

What good CB have we drafted late in the draft?   We've drafted good Safeties late.

[CommanderInTheRye]

Damn that's bad news.

 

I'm now concerned about Chase's knee for the long term, not just this season.

 

I'm starting to get Malcolm Kelly type vibes, heaven forbid.

 

They may just need to shut him down, if it's that bad, and give him the off season to heal or worst case scenario consider additional surgery. 😔

[Koolblue13]

5 hours ago, CommanderInTheRye said:

Damn that's bad news.

 

I'm now concerned about Chase's knee for the long term, not just this season.

 

I'm starting to get Malcolm Kelly type vibes, heaven forbid.

 

They may just need to shut him down, if it's that bad, and give him the off season to heal or worst case scenario consider additional surgery. 😔

That's really low dude. 

[CommanderInTheRye]

3 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

That's really low dude. 

 

I'm not sure I understand your reaction KB13?

 

I am legitimately concerned for Chase Young's health at this point.

 

I truly hope I am wrong and he ends up playing like a beast next week and never looks back but it seems to me that the available current evidence leads to a reasonable conclusion that there is a far larger issue with his recovery than initially anticipated.

 

I am simply proposing doing whatever it takes to get him healthy before putting him on the field again and risking greater damage to his knee and confidence.

 

Even if we have to shut him down for the rest of the year or, as a worst case alternative, explore further surgical options. The most important thing is doing what benefits Chase for the long term.

 

Admittedly, this is just my opinion as a non-professional with no access to his medical condition beyond what I can divine from the media.

 

You may, and apparently do, disagree with my assessment/(speculation), as is your right.

 

I just don't think it's fair to call me "low" for expressing my concerns but perhaps I am missing something essential in your criticism that you can enlighten me on. 

 

.

Edited November 20, 2022 by CommanderInTheRye

[Est.1974]

Yeah I’m not confident on Youngs return at all. I said weeks ago I’d consider sitting him this year.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

10 hours ago, CommanderInTheRye said:

Damn that's bad news.

 

I'm now concerned about Chase's knee for the long term, not just this season.

 

I'm starting to get Malcolm Kelly type vibes, heaven forbid.

 

They may just need to shut him down, if it's that bad, and give him the off season to heal or worst case scenario consider additional surgery. 😔

 

Someone was saying (can't find it right now) that what was damaged when he tore his knee is usually a really bad sign for future performance. It was the patellar tendon I think? That's supposedly robbed just about every athletes prime ability.

[Going Commando]

McCain is probably better at slot corner than deep safety.  His versatility was one of his major selling points when we signed him, and that's come into play for us now that Forrest is emerging.

[Idaho fan]

2 hours ago, Est.1974 said:

Yeah I’m not confident on Youngs return at all. I said weeks ago I’d consider sitting him this year.

I’m not confident he will ever return at least to the level of what he was before the injury.  At this point I am getting more confident that he will never become that “generational” player we all hoped for.  Hopefully he does.