Heinicke Hive: The LEGEND of Taylor Heinicke Thread

[Catatonic]

9 hours ago, skins island connection said:

 

 While overall I agree with this, I put it on the OC and DC.  This offense has looked alot more sharper, crisper than today.

Turner KNEW Dallas d-line was healthy and coming for blood, and he should have gotten TH out of the pocket alot more than he was, and he does make good things happen out of the pocket.  The WFT o-line wasn't going to be able to protect TH, Dallas would rotate fresh guys in to wear the o-line down. 

 

 

YES!!!  I was screaming this at the TV during the entire game yesterday.  

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

17 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Boy I don't know about that. It's a stretch to say he has an "OK arm".  By NFL standards he clearly has the weakest arm of all the 32 starters.  

Agreed on this front, if Taylor had an "OK arm" we wouldn't even be having these conversations.  

[TradeTheBeal!]

Yesterday was Beach Ball Bingo.  HineyHiney couldve and should’ve had 4-5 interceptions.

[mistertim]

3 hours ago, bowhunter said:

I had to work yesterday, so I have yet to see the game. But from what I was able to follow from my phone, it was UGLY. First half completion rate around 20%? My non football fan co-coworkers enjoyed watching me lament that Dallas was taking our lunch money. When I had a chance to re-open the phone app with 3 minutes left and saw us within 7 I wondered how/if Heiny had rallied. This thread tells me that he didn't. 

 

This is one advantage of having a larger sample size. Who is the real Heinicke? Was he "figured out?" Just a bad game? or did they expose his true weaknesses.? Apparently yesterday was a situation where just about any QB who isn't "elite" would struggle

 

Dallas basically stacked the box, sold out vs the run, brought multiple guys for pressure most of the time, and then dared Heinicke to beat them with his arm. It was pretty successful.

 

I'm not so sure that most QBs would necessarily have struggled. A couple of issues were that the scheming or design didn't seem to account enough for extra rushers, and that even when they did try to account for extra guys, Heinicke would often hold the ball too long (something Rivera said in his post-game presser as well). Our OL was also banged up and lost their individual battles at times as well, though they were up and down most of the game.

 

As far as accounting for the pass rushers, it's pretty much impossible to say whether that was on the OC or the QB without actually being in the game prep meetings. The OC is responsible for play design and packages for games, but the QB is often responsible for calling protections at the line.

 

Who were the hot reads? Why didn't we seem to get to them enough? Why not do more rollouts, naked boots, etc and get Heinicke out of the pocket more? Again, pretty hard to say without knowing the plays and game plan.

[skinny21]

IMO, when Heinicke sets his feet, his arm strength looks adequate.  Certainly not ideal, but at least adequate.  When he’s on - ie. comfortable and sets his feet - his accuracy has looked.. I don’t know, somewhere between solid/decent and good.  I was pleasantly surprised how many of his passes were hitting guys in stride, in the mitts.  Yesterday, and against Seattle to a lesser extent, his mechanics (among other things) let him down.

So probably one of the biggest thing he can work on in the offseason is getting better at setting himself consistently and doing it quickly.  I picture it a bit like a short stop in baseball snapping into their throwing stance to get the ball to 1st base.

[GoDeep81]

I think it's pretty obvious TH isn't going to beat teams by himself, even on his best days. Dude had a bad game, no doubt! But we're beat up man.. Players dropping like flies and at some point next man up just isn't good enough. Hopefully he's ok and bounces back and we can get a few bodies healthy.. I don't worry as much about his arm as others. He's not built to throw bombs, especially when we're down 20+ points and the opponent knows they're coming. I do worry why he's not been using his wheels more. You could see a huge difference in the jump Allen had, when he took off on that 1st play. TH hasn't looked nearly as "fresh" to me, for a while now. 

[wit33]

I’ll continue to beat home the idea his legs should be schemed to be used throughout each game. It makes zero sense to have him sit back there like pocket QB and tell him to only use his legs when the game dictates it. Scheme it up. 
 

Don’t know the ceiling or floor of Heineke, but his ability as a runner should be maximized to give the defense more to game plan for. It may not be ideal, but he’s going to have to grit out games against better opponents. Playoffs are on the line. Move all chips in. 

[Warhead36]

16 minutes ago, wit33 said:

I’ll continue to beat home the idea his legs should be schemed to be used throughout each game. It makes zero sense to have him sit back there like pocket QB and tell him to only use his legs when the game dictates it. Scheme it up. 
 

Don’t know the ceiling or floor of Heineke, but his ability as a runner should be maximized to give the defense more to game plan for. It may not be ideal, but he’s going to have to grit out games against better opponents. Playoffs are on the line. Move all chips in. 

He's a good runner but lets not make him out to be Lamar Jackson. Its hard to sustain offensive success without being able to consistently throw the football from the pocket, unless you're just a dynamic generational talent like Jackson.

[goskins10]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

Dallas basically stacked the box, sold out vs the run, brought multiple guys for pressure most of the time, and then dared Heinicke to beat them with his arm. It was pretty successful.

 

I think most of us saw this coming right? Each week Ds have been playing a little closer to the line and getting away with it. Just the two previous weeks thier offences could only muster 15 pts. Anyone expecting that against dallas was not being realistic. However, the D did hold them to 18. The offence gave dallas a TD (2pt conv is on the D) and FG through Tos. The D gave them a pick 6 back and a TO with the score 3-0 near midfield if I remember. Offense did nothing.  

 

48 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

IMO, when Heinicke sets his feet, his arm strength looks adequate.  Certainly not ideal, but at least adequate.  When he’s on - ie. comfortable and sets his feet - his accuracy has looked.. I don’t know, somewhere between solid/decent and good.  I was pleasantly surprised how many of his passes were hitting guys in stride, in the mitts.  Yesterday, and against Seattle to a lesser extent, his mechanics (among other things) let him down.

So probably one of the biggest thing he can work on in the offseason is getting better at setting himself consistently and doing it quickly.  I picture it a bit like a short stop in baseball snapping into their throwing stance to get the ball to 1st base.

 

I agree with you on mechanics. When he gets set and drives through the throw he is stronger and more accurate. However, I disagree with arm strength not being as big a problem. The best example is that deep throw to Terry. He had all day to throw (he made the time so good on him for that), had room to drive and the ball was 3 yds short causing Terry to have to come back for the ball. 3 more YDs and that's a TD. Terry had a step and half. So many other throws when he had time he had time there is just not enough velocity on the ball. Defenders had time to make a play on almost every ball. 

 

51 minutes ago, GoDeep81 said:

I think it's pretty obvious TH isn't going to beat teams by himself, even on his best days. Dude had a bad game, no doubt! But we're beat up man.. Players dropping like flies and at some point next man up just isn't good enough. Hopefully he's ok and bounces back and we can get a few bodies healthy.. I don't worry as much about his arm as others. He's not built to throw bombs, especially when we're down 20+ points and the opponent knows they're coming. I do worry why he's not been using his wheels more. You could see a huge difference in the jump Allen had, when he took off on that 1st play. TH hasn't looked nearly as "fresh" to me, for a while now. 

 

17 minutes ago, wit33 said:

I’ll continue to beat home the idea his legs should be schemed to be used throughout each game. It makes zero sense to have him sit back there like pocket QB and tell him to only use his legs when the game dictates it. Scheme it up. 
 

Don’t know the ceiling or floor of Heineke, but his ability as a runner should be maximized to give the defense more to game plan for. It may not be ideal, but he’s going to have to grit out games against better opponents. Playoffs are on the line. Move all chips in. 

 

 

I understand the thought and do not disagree about him using his legs more. But I really think that is becasue they do not want him getting hurt. If so, I think it's flawed logic, always have. If it's a designed run, he has control over how hard he gets hit (unless you are Robert and think you are 6'5" 250 and try to barrel roll people twice your size). Look atr Russell W. He has made a career out of knowing when to get down and keep from getting hit hard. It was like they didn't even care if he ran yesterday. 

 

Overall, yea Taylor had a bad day. But to be fair I think the injuries jsut were finally too much. The oline has been a patch work all year. I would have left Ismael in for Larson. I thought he has outplayed him when given the chance but that's jsut me. Here is a sentence most never thought would happen - right now Ereck Flowers is our best lineman, and to me it's not even close. Outside guys doing a nice job overall but Flowers is lighting it up. 

 

I know some do not see it this way, but the D played pretty well overall. Did they have a few breakdowns? Yes. But they held dallas well below all thier season averages including I think I saw held Elliott to 45 yds rushing? The only gave up 18 pts themselves. And the D got them the ball on a short field when the score was 3-0 and scored a late TD on a pick 6!! Off gave dallas a TD and a FG. Not sure much more you wanted from the D. 

[wit33]

42 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

He's a good runner but lets not make him out to be Lamar Jackson. Its hard to sustain offensive success without being able to consistently throw the football from the pocket, unless you're just a dynamic generational talent like Jackson.

Valid point. I don’t have an extreme stance on it (maybe I do lol), just believe in order for Washington to maximize his abilities while a starter his legs should be more involved. He appears to be a skilled runner with spatial awareness to protect himself on designed stuff.
 

Need the defenses having to scheme for more than him being in the pocket all game. They should have to worry about him running with the ball in the RO, RPO, and PA/roll out game throughout the entirety of a game. Mix this in with his comfort in the Turner scheme Washington might have another level on offense to reach with Heineke at the helm. As is, he appears he will be average with the penchant to make plays here and there.  

 

27 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

I understand the thought and do not disagree about him using his legs more. But I really think that is becasue they do not want him getting hurt. If so, I think it's flawed logic, always have. If it's a designed run, he has control over how hard he gets hit (unless you are Robert and think you are 6'5" 250 and try to barrel roll people twice your size). Look atr Russell W. He has made a career out of knowing when to get down and keep from getting hit hard. It was like they didn't even care if he ran yesterday. 

 

Couldn't agree more on the flawed logic in regards to the QB having a much stronger chance to protect themselves on designed runs. 
 

Theres 4 games remaining, go all out. Get to the playoffs at all costs. 

[mistertim]

One thing about Heinicke being out of the pocket...we know he can scramble well when need be, but do we actually know if he's any good at throwing on the run? He doesn't do it very often from what I can remember. A guy with a below average NFL arm might have trouble getting the necessary torque for those kinds of throws without being able to set his base and put what he needs into it.

[TradeTheBeal!]

Brutal.

 

 

[Renegade7]

14 minutes ago, mistertim said:

One thing about Heinicke being out of the pocket...we know he can scramble well when need be, but do we actually know if he's any good at throwing on the run? He doesn't do it very often from what I can remember. A guy with a below average NFL arm might have trouble getting the necessary torque for those kinds of throws without being able to set his base and put what he needs into it.

 

I dont believe he can throw on the run consistently.  He makes some crazy plays every once in a while, but unless he sets his feet his thrown power and accuracy typically drop.  I dont believe that should be a reason not to call roll outs, its jus up to him to run if he can't set his feet and the coaches to improve his mechanics into second nature.

[zCommander]

25 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Brutal.

 

 

 

On this play - forget about even throwing as TH had nothing but green in front of him. This play really baffled me as to why he didn't just run forward as he was already on the move. We were down by a lot so he was trying to get the most yards he could get, I get that but he didn't have to force a play and just take what is in front of him. This is where he over-thought himself out of a run for an easy 1st down. This play really frustrated the hell out of me. Now even more so seeing he also had a WR on his right wide open too. 

[88Comrade2000]

He’s not a franchise and will never be. At best he’s a bridge until we get a franchise.

[mistertim]

27 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Brutal.

 

 

 

I really hope Heinicke sends Terry a gift basket or something. He's hung him out like that too many times.

 

This play I think illustrates an issue with Heinicke, which is that when he gets behind or isn't playing well at first, he tries to make up for it with big plays that he simply doesn't have the arm to make. He gets into the gunslinger mode without having the requisite skills to be that kind of QB. I appreciate the mentality but it gets him into trouble. That was how he ended up with another couple of throws into double and triple coverage that luckily ended up as dropped INTs.

 

On this play he had 2 guys open for a 1st down, one of them being blatantly open, as well as enough green grass in front of him to run for a 1st, but he chose instead to heave up an underthrown bomb to Terry, which wound up with Terry concussed. 

[wit33]

39 minutes ago, mistertim said:

One thing about Heinicke being out of the pocket...we know he can scramble well when need be, but do we actually know if he's any good at throwing on the run? He doesn't do it very often from what I can remember. A guy with a below average NFL arm might have trouble getting the necessary torque for those kinds of throws without being able to set his base and put what he needs into it.

Not saying he’s good to great compared to whoever, but we’ve seen him do it this season a few times. Had enough torque on the roll out to Sims for a TD to the 40-50 yard or so, right?
 

Not attempting to disagree, just discuss. 

[mistertim]

9 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Not saying he’s good to great compared to whoever, but we’ve seen him do it this season a few times. Had enough torque on the roll out to Sims for a TD to the 40-50 yard or so, right?
 

Not attempting to disagree, just discuss. 

 

Yeah it was on a rollout, though Heinicke did have time to mostly set his feet. Still not quite as stable a base as if he were in the pocket, but decent. Then again, it also wasn't a precision throw where he was trying to thread the needle. He just needed to get enough on it to get it into Cam's general area.

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by mistertim

[Bacon]

1 hour ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Brutal.

 

 

 

How does Taylor not hit Curtis Samuel wide open and give him a chance to pick up YAC? That's pitch and catch.

 

(I know exactly how; he wanted to win the game in one throw. But he needs to know his limitations.)

Edited December 13, 2021 by Bacon

[skinny21]

@goskins10  Heinicke did have time to plant and throw at times, but I think most of the time, he was feeling the pressure, hearing footsteps, seeing ghosts, or however you want to put it and rushed his throws.

 

On the pass to Terry, it still felt/looked to me that his mechanics were off.  He did set his feet, but then his follow through looked ugly.  I’ll admit though that it could just be that’s the outer limit of his range and the heaving motion of his follow through was necessary to even get it that far, I don’t know.

 

Generally speaking (not directed at you), I don’t see this game as proof that Heinicke can’t qb when other things aren’t going right.  I say that because it’s one thing to be play from behind, or play when your run game isn’t working (or even both), but it’s another thing to do it while facing a ferocious pass rush with inadequate weapons.  Maybe a bad example, but Brady couldn’t do it against this team and he faced far less pressure  than Heinicke did (and didn’t get mauled, though you could argue he just got rid of the ball quicker).  

 

TH has overcome a run game gaining little or nothing on first down (or killing drives by not converting on 3rd and short), he’s picked up a fair share of first downs on obvious passing downs (long 3rd downs, 4th and 4+), has dealt with our defense letting the opposing team score a lot of points, had 4th quarter comebacks, and has certainly had to bounce back from bad plays/turnovers.  My point is, I think the jury is still out a bit on whether he can win a shootout with any kind of consistency (although I have my doubts). 

 

With all of that said, Heinicke absolutely panicked and he doesn’t have the arm to stretch defenses.  It was a horrible game from him.  He’s a smart guy that’s still relatively inexperienced, particularly with this style of game, so maybe he learns something from it?

[NeverSurrender]

4 hours ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Yesterday was Beach Ball Bingo.  HineyHiney couldve and should’ve had 4-5 interceptions.

Same could be said for Dak as well.  That guy had an awful game.

Edited December 13, 2021 by NeverSurrender
as well.

[ThomasRoane]

41 minutes ago, NeverSurrender said:

Same could be said for Dak as well.  That guy had an awful game.

 

And just think, Dak has $126M guaranteed!  Man he's not playing good at all.  And they are loaded with talent at WR.  Where, the WFT has Terry McLaurin and a bunch of guys who really try hard.  It was frustrating to see Diggs lock Terry down and then no one else able to make them pay.  That's two games now (vs Lattimore with the Saints) where we've seen Terry blanketed.  Not knocking Terry.  I love the guy.  I'm sure he'd like to have someone (Samuel, Sims, or Brown) to dominate their man on a regular basis.  That would be great for the QB too.  It would also be nice to have receivers catch the easy ones.  I understand there are some balls that make them work.  But there are too many easy balls that are dropped.  Carter, RSJ, Bates, etc.  When your offense is struggling those gimmes that are dropped really hurt.  

 

Heinicke didn't have a good game but Turner didn't really do him any favors either.  In fairness, yesterday was the first look at dallas with all their weapons.  I expect/hope for a much better gameplan in a couple of weeks.  

 

Kyle Alen clearly has the better arm but he's nowhere near Heinicke's level of manipulating the pocket and evading pressure.  You can't expect any player to run for their lives for most of the game.  And yeah, you can say there were times that the OLine and backs held up but it's human nature to start speeding up your mental clock.  That's three games in a row now where Heinicke has to work some Houdini magic in the pocket.  It gets to you.  That's also why he's not setting his feet consistently.  He's so used to having to chuck and duck now that it's become a habit.  He started to really fall apart before he got hurt.  Getting him out of there was the right move.  But, Allen doesn't seem like the guy to bring a team back for the go ahead score.  If only we could merge the two!  Kyle Heinicke would be one helluva QB!

Edited December 13, 2021 by ThomasRoane

[OMacAttack]

Any updates on the knee or more importantly his throwing arm?

[DEASkins]

7 minutes ago, OMacAttack said:

Any updates on the knee or more importantly his throwing arm?

Maybe his knee is fine and the Dr's can take some cartilage out and use it to improve his throwing strength

[PartyPosse]

1 hour ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

And just think, Dak has $126M guaranteed!  Man he's not playing good at all.  And they are loaded with talent at WR.  Where, the WFT has Terry McLaurin and a bunch of guys who really try hard.  It was frustrating to see Diggs lock Terry down and then no one else able to make them pay.  That's two games now (vs Lattimore with the Saints) where we've seen Terry blanketed.  Not knocking Terry.  I love the guy.  I'm sure he'd like to have someone (Samuel, Sims, or Brown) to dominate their man on a regular basis.  That would be great for the QB too.  It would also be nice to have receivers catch the easy ones.  I understand there are some balls that make them work.  But there are too many easy balls that are dropped.  Carter, RSJ, Bates, etc.  When your offense is struggling those gimmes that are dropped really hurt.  

 

Heinicke didn't have a good game but Turner didn't really do him any favors either.  In fairness, yesterday was the first look at dallas with all their weapons.  I expect/hope for a much better gameplan in a couple of weeks.  

 

Kyle Alen clearly has the better arm but he's nowhere near Heinicke's level of manipulating the pocket and evading pressure.  You can't expect any player to run for their lives for most of the game.  And yeah, you can say there were times that the OLine and backs held up but it's human nature to start speeding up your mental clock.  That's three games in a row now where Heinicke has to work some Houdini magic in the pocket.  It gets to you.  That's also why he's not setting his feet consistently.  He's so used to having to chuck and duck now that it's become a habit.  He started to really fall apart before he got hurt.  Getting him out of there was the right move.  But, Allen doesn't seem like the guy to bring a team back for the go ahead score.  If only we could merge the two!  Kyle Heinicke would be one helluva QB!

This is some next level apologist **** right here.