Heinicke Hive: The LEGEND of Taylor Heinicke Thread

[mistertim]

34 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

We saw enough to get a good idea...he started 4 games for us last year and 12 games for the Panthers the year before, with at least some of them having Scott as OC.

 

Yeah I think Allen had sort of established himself already as a serviceable NFL QB, but not a guy who's necessarily going to win you games.

 

Honestly, it feels like that's all 3 of our QBs at this point.

 

Fitz is Fitz and is going to be up and down (though he's been more up than down for the past couple of seasons). He's prone to pulling out an amazing performance one day and then a stinker the next.

 

Heinicke has the mentality to be a guy who can make big plays with his arm and win you games, and tries to be that guy...but he doesn't really have the physical traits to be that guy, which is a combination that can get him into trouble, as we've seen recently.

 

Allen is sort of a combination. More mobile than Fitz but less than TH. Better arm than TH but probably a bit less than Fitz. Decent game manager. Though to be fair, we also haven't seen a whole lot of him in the WFT uniform.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

7 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Yeah I think Allen had sort of established himself already as a serviceable NFL QB, but not a guy who's necessarily going to win you games.

 

Honestly, it feels like that's all 3 of our QBs at this point.

 

Fitz is Fitz and is going to be up and down (though he's been more up than down for the past couple of seasons). He's prone to pulling out an amazing performance one day and then a stinker the next.

 

Heinicke has the mentality to be a guy who can make big plays with his arm and win you games, and tries to be that guy...but he doesn't really have the physical traits to be that guy, which is a combination that can get him into trouble, as we've seen recently.

 

Allen is sort of a combination. More mobile than Fitz but less than TH. Better arm than TH but probably a bit less than Fitz. Decent game manager. Though to be fair, we also haven't seen a whole lot of him in the WFT uniform.

 

 

[PartyPosse]

The question is, of the three, which one is the best compliment to our current defense and which would be the best compliment to the defense we anticipated having?

[Renegade7]

2 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

The question is, of the three, which one is the best compliment to our current defense and which would be the best compliment to the defense we anticipated having?

It doesn't matter now, the offense needs to do its job to the best of its ability and let the chips fall where they may on the other side of the ball.  The best our offense can do is limit turnovers and do best it can on sustaining drives, but they can't play defense for them. 

 

At the rate we are going we jus need to score as much as we can and put our offense in best position possible for good film to decide who stays or goes in the offseason.  We are dangerously close to this season being over and being in evaluation mode.

 

I'm beginning to understand the lack of need to see Allen, but I really want to see Fitz as he was expected to make this offense hum, not Taylor.

[Stone Cold]

Arming our 3 QBs, 4 gives us the best chance to win this season.  He’s makin the ol look very good bc of his off schedule plays.  Put the other 2 statues and were back to struggling to score 17

[NeverSurrender]

THe thin about last game is that the 2 INTS were not because of TH's arm strength.  They were just bad decisions.  Honestly I would like to see him throw more deep balls down the sideline.  I think teams are sitting on the short to intermediate stuff a little and taking some shots will force teams to cover a bit more of the field.  I still think TH can be effective but until this Defense figures something out (mainly benching Collins), then were arent going to win a lot of games.  But what happens if we win this week and TH looks as good as Mahomes....??  Honestly I could see that happening as the Chiefs are not the immovable force they were a few years ago. 

[Renegade7]

As good as Mahomes?  *sigh, we are doing it to ourselves, yall...

[Voice_of_Reason]

19 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

I'm beginning to understand the lack of need to see Allen, but I really want to see Fitz as he was expected to make this offense hum, not Taylor.

There is just nothing special about Allen in any way.  He doesn't have the physical tools either, though his arm is somewhat better than TH's.  I commented on it during the Giant's game last year after 1 drive.  You could just SEE that he couldn't drive the ball the way we're used to seeing NFL QBs drive the ball.

 

The problem is Fitz isn't familiar with this offense. So he's learning.

 

The actual answer to QB is not on this team.

 

Personally, I want them to go all-in on either Russel Wilson or Aaron Rodgers.  We need a quick fix with a lot of juice.  

[ThomasRoane]

40 minutes ago, NeverSurrender said:

THe thin about last game is that the 2 INTS were not because of TH's arm strength.  They were just bad decisions.  Honestly I would like to see him throw more deep balls down the sideline.  I think teams are sitting on the short to intermediate stuff a little and taking some shots will force teams to cover a bit more of the field.  I still think TH can be effective but until this Defense figures something out (mainly benching Collins), then were arent going to win a lot of games.  But what happens if we win this week and TH looks as good as Mahomes....??  Honestly I could see that happening as the Chiefs are not the immovable force they were a few years ago. 

 

Any of the three QBs on the team need the receiving weapons that we all thought would be present at the beginning of the season.  

 

1) McLaurin

2) Thomas

3) Samuels

4) Brown

5) Humphries

 

Three out of five easily could start for most NFL team. 

 

Now, TH has the following:

 

1) McLaurin

2) Carter

3) Humphries (although it's close betw him and Carter)

4) RSJ

5) Milne

 

Only one out of these five are starting for another NFL teams.  

 

Running game should be more helpful but Gibson needs to be on a pitch count with the stress fracture.  And they're not very good up the middle which is why they try to get out on the edge.  The OLine without Sherff (and now Cosmi) is not bad on pass pro but they're not knocking people off the ball.  

 

Add in the pressure that any QB would feel to keep pace with the opposing offense and any QB that has any guts at all is going to make some mistakes.  

 

Honestly, as the offense is now I don't know how you can evaluate any of the QBs.  McLaurin is the only weapon you don't have to scheme to get open.  Double him and it's a wrap.  

Edited October 14, 2021 by ThomasRoane

[mistertim]

2 hours ago, NeverSurrender said:

THe thin about last game is that the 2 INTS were not because of TH's arm strength.  They were just bad decisions.  Honestly I would like to see him throw more deep balls down the sideline.  I think teams are sitting on the short to intermediate stuff a little and taking some shots will force teams to cover a bit more of the field.  I still think TH can be effective but until this Defense figures something out (mainly benching Collins), then were arent going to win a lot of games.  But what happens if we win this week and TH looks as good as Mahomes....??  Honestly I could see that happening as the Chiefs are not the immovable force they were a few years ago. 

 

The second one was definitely a bad decision, but I think the first one was a combination. He was trying to get the pass over the DB and it just floated short.

 

As far as throwing deep balls down the sideline, I think that's super risky for Heinicke unless his anticipation is absolutely dead on. There were 3 passes during the Atlanta game that hit DBs in the hands and were basically dropped INTs, and IIRC at least 2 of them were deep(ish) passes down the sideline where Heinicke was a little late to throw it, but he doesn't have the arm strength to really drive the ball there in that situation, so the DBs had time to recover and make a play. We just got lucky that they weren't picks.

 

You're probably right that teams are mostly sitting on the short and intermediate stuff now, and that's because they know Heinicke's limitations. Unfortunately those limitations are real and so it makes sense for them to sit shallow and force him to try and make more difficult throws downfield. I think the offense needs to cater to his strengths and try to minimize his limitations. That means more boots and rollouts, more off schedule stuff, which is where he excels.

 

Heinicke can make those intermediate and deep outs, but because of his arm limitations his anticipation and timing on those throws basically has to be elite, and it's not at that point yet (though that doesn't mean it couldn't get there).

[bowhunter]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Personally, I want them to go all-in on either Russel Wilson or Aaron Rodgers.  We need a quick fix with a lot of juice.  

Wilson and Rodgers cannot score enough points to overcome the D's weakness. In the end we'll just keep racking up losses and be poorer for it. Fix the D

[Wyvern]

14 hours ago, Califan007 said:

 

We saw enough to get a good idea...he started 4 games for us last year and 12 games for the Panthers the year before, with at least some of them having Scott as OC.

Sorry Califan, I'll stand by my statement.  I was looking at Allen's potential fit in the WFT offense, and I feel his time in learning the starter's role in Carolina just raised a few things I'd need to watch in assessing whether he could be a good game-manager in the WFT system (He had a lot of interceptions).  I saw in Carolina he was somewhat mobile, but it remained to be seen how he'd perform with a different team, different defensive support, different receiving corps, etc. and working under different expectations of the offense. Also, maybe a year of seasoning might make a difference in what WFT might get out of Allen.

 

And to be clear, Allen's time as a WFT starter was not enough to evauate, either due to injury or to the  disparity in competitive levels of opponents he faced.

 

... Allen's first start as WFT QB vs. the Rams wasn't the best example to conclude an evaluation.  The Washington O-line was being dominated, the running wasn't working and the Washington D quickly gave up 20 points early into the 2nd quarter, which meant the Rams could really pin their ears back and go after Allen.  He didn't even make it to the half before Ramsey took him out out the game with a personal foul.  Kyle had 9/13, 74 yds/ a 7-yrd. TD run, 83.5 rating

 

The next two games Allen could have been 2-0 if Hopkins didn't miss a last minute FG. He also could have put up more points against Dallas.  But NFC-E games were kind of weird in 2020, and those weren't middle-to-upper tier opponents.

--- Vs the Giants ((Oct game) he put up enough points to be able to win, but Hopkins blew it. Allen's numbers 31/42 280yrds. /2TDs/1Int/ QB rating 97.3 WFT got to 19 points but could have been at least 22 for the win on the road.

--- Vs Dallas  WFT got to 25 points and it could have been more. Cowboys couldn't stop the run and were held to 3 points.  Allen's stats...15/25 194yds. 2 TDs. Rating of 111

 

In the November Giants game, Allen may have been on the field for only a total of 4-5 minutes total before Jabrill Peppers personal foul took his leg out even  before the first quarter was over.  Moreover, the Giants dominated the first quarter time of possession because McKissic fumbled after a 21yrd reception and the  WFT punt returner also fumbled.) Allen's stats ....5/7 62 yrds. Rating of 98.5

 

So what we got to see was just two full games against flawed NFC-E opponents and a 1/2 game when the whole team was being dominated by the Rams.  I saw a few good things and some bad things -- but not enough to get sense what he could do against non NFC-E teams that were middle to upper tier. And after Washington's history of QB results from McNabb, Beck, Grossman, Brunnell, etc I prefer to assess what I see of the QB in the Washington scheme, rather than pre-judge them based on their performance with another team.  Heck, at this point I'm not sure how mobile Allen is now, after that major leg injury.

 

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by Wyvern

[Voice_of_Reason]

52 minutes ago, bowhunter said:

Wilson and Rodgers cannot score enough points to overcome the D's weakness. In the end we'll just keep racking up losses and be poorer for it. Fix the D

I actually think the D is going to get fixed by the end of the year.  I think it’s obvious what is wrong, but Ron and Jack are not rushing 

[KDawg]

I think the D is fairly easy to fix, to be honest.

Its can be serviceable with a few subs. Seriously.

 

Jump to elite? Get a FS and a LB. 
 

CB may be a necessity for an elite D but I think the current crop could get by with a very good FS and Curl. 

[PartyPosse]

38 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I think the D is fairly easy to fix, to be honest.

Its can be serviceable with a few subs. Seriously.

 

Jump to elite? Get a FS and a LB. 
 

CB may be a necessity for an elite D but I think the current crop could get by with a very good FS and Curl. 

I agree. It’s not hard to exploit a good defense if there’s a very clear weak link. 

[wit33]

3 hours ago, KDawg said:

I think the D is fairly easy to fix, to be honest.

Its can be serviceable with a few subs. Seriously.

 

Jump to elite? Get a FS and a LB. 
 

CB may be a necessity for an elite D but I think the current crop could get by with a very good FS and Curl. 

I think they’re on the right track with what they did last week in playing 1LB (Holcomb) and rest DBs on most downs. Adjust to these past first offenses and dare them to run against the 5 man front. 

[NeverSurrender]

21 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

The second one was definitely a bad decision, but I think the first one was a combination. He was trying to get the pass over the DB and it just floated short.

 

As far as throwing deep balls down the sideline, I think that's super risky for Heinicke unless his anticipation is absolutely dead on. There were 3 passes during the Atlanta game that hit DBs in the hands and were basically dropped INTs, and IIRC at least 2 of them were deep(ish) passes down the sideline where Heinicke was a little late to throw it, but he doesn't have the arm strength to really drive the ball there in that situation, so the DBs had time to recover and make a play. We just got lucky that they weren't picks.

 

You're probably right that teams are mostly sitting on the short and intermediate stuff now, and that's because they know Heinicke's limitations. Unfortunately those limitations are real and so it makes sense for them to sit shallow and force him to try and make more difficult throws downfield. I think the offense needs to cater to his strengths and try to minimize his limitations. That means more boots and rollouts, more off schedule stuff, which is where he excels.

 

Heinicke can make those intermediate and deep outs, but because of his arm limitations his anticipation and timing on those throws basically has to be elite, and it's not at that point yet (though that doesn't mean it couldn't get there).

I agree 100% with the roll outs and off schedule stuff.  I would really like to see a lot more of that.  However, what im asking with the deep sideline balls is more of a low risk pass that shouldnt really be intercepted.  Kind of the way Mark Brunell Used to use the sideline when he was in Jacksonville before he came to us.  Streaks down the side can open up the cover 2 shell that teams are playing a lot of against us.  I think this will help TH have more of the middle of the field back.  Again, Im not asking for a lot of these plays but tossing a few here and there can make the DBs move more.  Thats all im saying.  

[Renegade7]

Hoping Taylor bounces back this week, KC defense is jus as bad as ours, he should look better then he did last week.  This is a game he can't look bad in, it will cost him his job if he does.

[ODU AGGIE]

OK guys. I'm trying my best to be objective, but undoubtedly some of my bias will shine through. I think TH can have a good game this week. First, as others have pointed out the Chiefs defense has not exactly been setting the world on fire. Secondly, Heinicke is really pissed about his performance last week and determined not to repeat it. Unfortunately, the number of injuries going into this game is huge, and a number of backups are going to have to step up big time. That well could be the difference maker, but I believe TH gets the job done. That said, even if he plays well, it may not be enough to secure the win. Cheers, all!

[CobraCommander]

I forgot this dude was our QB this week. Hope he can pull off some magic, we're gonna need it.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

10 minutes ago, Florgon79 said:

I forgot this dude was our QB this week. Hope he can pull off some magic, we're gonna need it.

 

How could you forget that? lol...

[CobraCommander]

28 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

How could you forget that? lol...

I haven't really thought about any of the players or the team tbh, So many off the field distractions.

[ThomasRoane]

1 hour ago, ODU AGGIE said:

OK guys. I'm trying my best to be objective, but undoubtedly some of my bias will shine through. I think TH can have a good game this week. First, as others have pointed out the Chiefs defense has not exactly been setting the world on fire. Secondly, Heinicke is really pissed about his performance last week and determined not to repeat it. Unfortunately, the number of injuries going into this game is huge, and a number of backups are going to have to step up big time. That well could be the difference maker, but I believe TH gets the job done. That said, even if he plays well, it may not be enough to secure the win. Cheers, all!

 

McLaurin tweaked his hamstring.  If he doesn't go, Carter is your #1 receiver.  Let that sink in.  

[ODU AGGIE]

53 minutes ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

McLaurin tweaked his hamstring.  If he doesn't go, Carter is your #1 receiver.  Let that sink in.  

I had already taken that into account. The thrust of my post was that I thought TH would play well, but it may not be enough. Try to let that sink in this time.

[mistertim]

3 hours ago, NeverSurrender said:

I agree 100% with the roll outs and off schedule stuff.  I would really like to see a lot more of that.  However, what im asking with the deep sideline balls is more of a low risk pass that shouldnt really be intercepted.  Kind of the way Mark Brunell Used to use the sideline when he was in Jacksonville before he came to us.  Streaks down the side can open up the cover 2 shell that teams are playing a lot of against us.  I think this will help TH have more of the middle of the field back.  Again, Im not asking for a lot of these plays but tossing a few here and there can make the DBs move more.  Thats all im saying.  

 

Yeah trying to keep defenses honest makes sense, and I'd be fine with it if we're talking about passes that are where either your receiver gets it or nobody does, but that's pretty tough to do with throws like out routes that are more about precision than anything else...and if the ball doesn't get there in time it's an incomplete pass if you're lucky, a pick six if you're not. With that sort of throw, to make it so just your guy can get it you'd really need to push it to the sideline and basically force your receiver to toe tap. But it's do-able.