Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[Koolblue13]

So, Mac seems to be similar to Kurt Cousins, Alex Smith and Tom Brady in that they are very solid hard workers, with no real outstanding blow you away attributes, but move well in the pocket and see downfield really well. 

 

That seems like a great floor. Looking at Smith and Cousins, even if they were never the QB to throw you on their back and carry you to the finish, they are rarely on teams that struggle to find wins. I am absolutely fine with someone who can just keep the QB position locked down for a while.

[Skinsinparadise]

13 minutes ago, KDawg said:

My write up on him: Accurate passer in the middle of the field that has good footwork and scans the field well. Doesn't have a fantastic arm and one hops throws to the field outside the hash entirely too often and misses open targets down the field too often. He does well on crossing patterns, slants, digs and operates really comfortably from play action. He scans the field well and is situationally aware and knows how to throw the ball away to avoid a sack. He uses his playmakers well and throws the ball to them in space as often as he can. He has a winning attitude and has proven he is tough as nails, but he is extremely well protected and isn't a great dual threat kind of athlete. 

 

I agree.  The middle of the field/play action stuff reminds me a lot of Kirk.  I know some hate Kirk like poison.   I don't hate him.  He's a totally different type of dude from Kirk as a person from what I read.  But some of the strengths IMO overlap.   Kirk to me play action/sell defenders with his eyes/accuracy in ther middle of the field -- intermediate accuracy. As to his strengths with Mac its similar.  Mac is more adept at navigating pressure though.  Not saying Mac guaranteed will be as good or better than Kirk but some of their strengths overlap IMO. 

28 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I’m waiting to hear from more sources about some of these guys psych intangibles. I am sure my list will be altered dramatically once more around that stuff comes out.

 

I've read some on Mac, mostly good stuff about him as for leadership, the one red flag is a DUI when he was 19.  The article below isn't the first I've seen about him being goofy.  I recall a TV interview that showcased it.    Not sure what to make of the joker side of his personality. 

 

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/30479499/alabama-qb-mac-jones-stakes-claim-most-interesting-man-college-football

 

"I GOT ABSOLUTELY destroyed by Coach Saban for the next 10 minutes," Jones says now, some three years removed from the foolhardy crimes of his youth. (Read: freshman year.) "Everyone still brings it up, and I'm super embarrassed."

Then he barks out a laugh. Or laughs out a bark. He bark-laughs.

Surely you've heard this bark-laugh, or at least heard word of it. It's the one that inspired Alabama's former offensive lineman Richie Petitbon to dub Jones "Joker." As in the Joker, all volcanic laugh and spasmodic bursts of movement and overall gaucheness. "He's got this big, stupid smile on his face," Petitbon says. "I mean, it's huge."

 

Surely now you're thinking, This guy? This is the joker (pun decidedly intended) who incensed Saban in his scout team days, who was rumored to have the audacity to jaw back and forth with Saban back then too and lived to tell the tale? Survived to become Alabama's starting -- nay, star -- quarterback for this 2020 season?

Indeed, Mac Jones is the bold, peculiar quarterback capturing hearts, minds and sundry historical records at Alabama in this, his breakout year. And it's this bold, peculiar quarterback who might just lead the Tide out of the national championship desert -- nearly a three-year stretch with no titles, which amounts to a drought in Tuscaloosa. That quest begins in earnest on Saturday; the SEC championship game, and the Florida Gators' own Heisman-caliber quarterback, Kyle Trask, awaits.

Before all that, Jones' proclivity for needling Notorious Laid-Back Fella Nick Saban was hardly rare, and not really all that exclusive to Nick Saban. Neither Petitbon nor Miller Forristall, Alabama's redshirt senior tight end, are even sure they recall the exact Hail Mary fiasco that still makes Jones blush today, because his shenanigans were abundant enough to have all bled together lo these many years.

 

"That sounds like something that's happened more than once," Petitbon says.

"There's a lot of days where I remember Mac getting yelled at by Coach Saban," Forristall concurs. "Or yelled at by the defense. He loved it."

What makes Forristall say such a thing?

 

"Uh, the giant smile on his face?" he explains slowly and with what feels like a touch of mock indulgence, as though the question itself is so self-evident as to be rendered absurd.

It's that smile and his general veneer of goofiness, really, that unlocks the mystery of Mac Jones' enduring and disarming brand of charm. And why even if he makes the defense mad or Saban mad, his targets don't stay that way for all that long. "Mac's pretty goofy," Forristall says. "He's real goofy," clarifies Alabama senior wide receiver DeVonta Smith. "He's a clown," punctuates Kalif Jackson, who has known Jones since they were 15-year-old rivals in 7-on-7, dispensing with any uncertainty.

Mac Jones doesn't laugh, you see, he cackles. He doesn't dance, he wiggles. He doesn't talk smack, he banters and cheeses while doing so.

 

So here's this kid, this joker, who has never -- not once -- looked the part of QB1. Jones' father, Gordon, was a professional tennis player in his day; he played in qualifying at Wimbledon and the French Open, and his calling card was a powerful, soul-crushing serve. He's a hulk of a man, even now in his 60s, who could pass for a quarterback more easily than his son, the actual star quarterback. Mac? He was the string bean. The scrawny kid whom Jack Lundgren, Jones' high school teammate and close friend, guffawed at when he first laid eyes on him. The scrawny kid who grew into a less scrawny but still not awe-inspiring 6-foot-3, 214 pounds. Let's just say such physical stature does not a Cam Newton make. He's more Tom Brady ... circa 2000, at the NFL scouting combine, shirt off, pastiness thrown into sharp relief, nary a muscle in sight. The resemblance is so uncanny that Jones once tweeted a portrait of himself clipped alongside Brady's inglorious combine photo.

 

And it's this not-physical marvel who will challenge the fastest guy on the team to a race, blather on about how he'll leave that fastest guy in the dust, then wink.

Jones is in on the joke, in other words. He's different and he knows it. He's unconventional and he accepts it.

When asked to self-evaluate, to put himself in context with 2020's other quarterback phenoms -- Trevor Lawrence and Justin Fields and Trask -- Jones offers a frank assessment: "Those guys can probably all throw better than me, and some of them can run faster than me. I wouldn't say I have a bunch of physical characteristics that are super impressive." Then he bark-laughs.

And after Alabama shamed Mississippi State in October, a 41-0 indignity, he sat at a podium with Smith and explained why he dove headfirst at the end of one particular run. "I could've bounced it outside, I guess. But I'm not really fast."

 

Bark-laugh.

"I don't know ..."

Bark-cackle.

"I don't know if I would have made it out there."

Meanwhile, Smith, seated to his left, broke out in a mile-wide grin and dropped his head to giggle to himself.

See, Jones is different and unconventional, but he doesn't just know it and accept it. He embraces it -- and it's a strange, beguiling alchemy that makes everyone embrace him. (Truly, his teammates gush, making him out to be something of a cross between lovable mascot and pesky but precious little brother. "He's just Jooooooker, you know?" Petitbon says.) The result is a picture of an endearingly awkward, unnervingly talented 22-year-old kid with serious most-interesting-man-in-college-football vibes. He's known, in no particular order, for his sage investment advice, his natural salsa dancing skills, and his eclectic and encyclopedic appreciation of all genres of music. He is, his friends and family assure you, a real live Renaissance man masquerading as a football star.

Edited December 31, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[Darrell Green Fan]

12 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

So, Mac seems to be similar to Kurt Cousins, Alex Smith and Tom Brady in that they are very solid hard workers, with no real outstanding blow you away attributes, but move well in the pocket and see downfield really well. 

 

That seems like a great floor. Looking at Smith and Cousins, even if they were never the QB to throw you on their back and carry you to the finish, they are rarely on teams that struggle to find wins. I am absolutely fine with someone who can just keep the QB position locked down for a while.

 

Is the goal to be not bad/pretty good or is the goal to be a contender for many years? I am a notable Kirk guy but after his stop in Minnesota it's perfectly clear that a QB like Kirk Cousins or Alex Smith will limit your ability to actually challenge for deep playoff runs year after year. 

 

I'll ask again. For those in your camp what did Kyle show this year that would not make you believe he can be at the level you project for Mac?  I mean he played pretty well in his time here.  

Edited December 31, 2020 by Darrell Green Fan

[KDawg]

3 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Is the goal to be not bad/pretty good or is the goal to be a contender for many years? I am a notable Kirk guy but after his stop in Minnesota it's perfectly clear that a QB like Kirk Cousins or Alex Smith will limit your ability to actually challenge for deep playoff runs year after year. 

 

I'll ask again. For those in your camp what did Kyle show this year that would not make you believe he can be at that level?  I mean he played pretty well in his time here.  

I’m fine with Kyle for a starter while a rook develops. The reason I’m not more on the Allen bandwagon is injury concerns. He’s young, played quite well when he got his chances. There’s potential with him. A lot of it.

 

I think we need a guy to take the reigns at some point. But if Allen stays healthy and takes the job by force you have a good problem: the ability to trade one of the two and get assets in return.

[Skinsinparadise]

23 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

I'll ask again. For those in your camp what did Kyle show this year that would not make you believe he can be at the level you project for Mac?  I mean he played pretty well in his time here.  

 

 

23 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Is the goal to be not bad/pretty good or is the goal to be a contender for many years? I am a notable Kirk guy but after his stop in Minnesota it's perfectly clear that a QB like Kirk Cousins or Alex Smith will limit your ability to actually challenge for deep playoff runs year after year. 

 

I like Kirk.  My issue with him then and now is IMO he's mostly a good to very good but not great which is fine but he's always streaky and you don't know what you are getting on that front.  Hot Kirk?  Cold Kirk?  To me he's missing the clutch gene.  So toe to toe with the best QBs in the playoffs, he's not a dude I'd trust to reach a SB.    Alex is somewhat ditto as for having limits. He's not as prolific as Kirk or as streaky but his highs aren't as high.  Alex and Kirk are different type of QBs but both IMO aren't outdueling Aaron Rodgers (I know both have in the regular season) with everything at stake.   

 

Having said that with this type of defense you might be able to pull it off with QBs at their caliber but I don't like either one in a big game in the post season.  Ironically, I'd probably trust Ryan Fitzpatrick more than either one in a big game. He's not as talented but is clutch.   I know Stafford is getting slammed for going 0-4 in playoffs but that's a small sample.  He is mega clutch during the season I suspect with a really good supporting cast, he can play big in a big game in the post season.

 

Kyle Allen was a roller coaster in Carolina, more bad than good, if I recall ranked dead last that season by PFF, ranked dead last on deep throws, turnover machine.    He played decently in the short stint this season here.  He has some mobility, plays with some moxie.  He doesn't seem to have a ton of arm strength and he got away with some contested type throws that could have been picked off.  Kyle to me is a maybe versus we can sleep well at night because he's got this IMO. 

Edited December 31, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

16 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Is the goal to be not bad/pretty good or is the goal to be a contender for many years? I am a notable Kirk guy but after his stop in Minnesota it's perfectly clear that a QB like Kirk Cousins or Alex Smith will limit your ability to actually challenge for deep playoff runs year after year. 

 

I'll ask again. For those in your camp what did Kyle show this year that would not make you believe he can be at the level you project for Mac?  I mean he played pretty well in his time here.  

1-3 and then injured. Career almost as many picks as TDs. Meh, he's alright and I hope he is on the roster.

 

And the goal is to be a contender and that's what I said Smith and Cousins can do. I notice you left the other QB I mentioned out.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

1-3 and then injured. Career almost as many picks as TDs. Meh, he's alright and I hope he is on the roster.

 

And the goal is to be a contender and that's what I said Smith and Cousins can do. I notice you left the other QB I mentioned out.

 

The injury stuff is a point I forgot to mention, too.  He got injured twice in a short sample.  He's not the biggest dude.  He has some mobility which is good but seems to struggle to avoid contact on that front which isn't good. 

Edited December 31, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The injury stuff is a point I forgot to mention, too.  He got injured twice in a short sample.  He's not the biggest dude.  He has some mobility which is good but seems to struggle to avoid contact on that front which isn't good. 

Kind of RG3esque in the taking the big hits department. 

 

I think Allen is an asset and not an answer. 

 

Realistically, right now, if I were to just totally guess at a non reach offseason at QB we begin the season with Allen, Heineke, Mac (the possible right draft spot). Total guess.

 

I have a hard time seeing RR get aggressive for any of the high end QBs that may be available for trade or sign. I also don't know if the price to move up in the draft will be affordable. It would also be a career in Washington defining move for Ron. I don't think he's there yet.

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Kind of RG3esque in the taking the big hits department. 

 

I think Allen is an asset and not an answer. 

 

Realistically, right now, if I were to just totally guess at a non reach offseason at QB we begin the season with Allen, Heineke, Mac (the possible right draft spot). Total guess.

 

I have a hard time seeing RR get aggressive for any of the high end QBs that may be available for trade or sign. I also don't know if the price to move up in the draft will be affordable. It would also be a career in Washington defining move for Ron. I don't think he's there yet.

 

Mac Jones might be the biggest enigma for me right now as for where he lands in the draft.  I liked him for months as sort of my favorite 2nd tier type.  At the time he was considered by most draft geek types as a 2nd rounder or at best late first rounder.  Now he's all over the first round.   Tough for me to gauge where he falls. For all I know landing Mac Jones would be a an aggressive move because they might have to trade up. 

 

Between what insiders have said and watching/listening to Ron talk about the QB spot some, my best guess is this:

 

A. They won't be aggressive trading up in the draft unless they can trade up without giving the farm

B.  I think they will be aggressive in the trade market if Stafford, Ryan, Darnold or whomever they like hits the market

 

My big mystery is FA.  I don't really love any of the options.  But if they do, that's obviously the lowest risk chase.  None of those FAs IMO will break the bank cap wise. 

Edited December 31, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Mac Jones might be the biggest enigma for me right now as for where he lands in the draft.  I liked him for months as sort of my favorite 2nd tier type.  At the time he was considered by most draft geek types as a 2nd rounder or at best late first rounder.  Now he's all over the first round.   Tough for me to gauge where he falls. For all I know landing Mac Jones would be a an aggressive move because they might have to trade up. 

 

Between what insiders have said and watching/listening to Ron talk about the QB spot some, my best guess is this:

 

A. They won't be aggressive trading up in the draft unless they can trade up without giving the farm

B.  I think they will be aggressive in the trade market if Stafford, Ryan, Darnold or whomever they like hits the market

 

My big mystery is FA.  I don't really love any of the options.  But if they do, that's obviously the lowest risk chase.  None of those FAs IMO will break the bank cap wise. 

I trust Ron not to go crazy and over react.

 

QB and MLB are obviously going to be aggressively addressed and that's pretty exciting. I think it's going to be a very fun offseason for us.

[Skinsinparadise]

8 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I trust Ron not to go crazy and over react.

 

QB and MLB are obviously going to be aggressively addressed and that's pretty exciting. I think it's going to be a very fun offseason for us.

 

I think it might be the most interesting off season in eons.   Agree, MLB, QB and I'd add WR are probably tops on their list. 

[Koolblue13]

18 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I think it might be the most interesting off season in eons.   Agree, MLB, QB and I'd add WR are probably tops on their list. 

There may potentially be some really high end FSs available too. Harris, Simmons, Marcus Williams, Maye, I mean this is rich as hell for this position.

[mhd24]

25 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I think it might be the most interesting off season in eons.   Agree, MLB, QB and I'd add WR are probably tops on their list. 

Yeah, it was obvious the FO thought it was a major need (hence the going after Cooper).  There are some good cheap vet WRs available this Off-season who might be solid WR2s...

1). Hilton

2). Marvin Jones

3). AJ Green (although he looks close to done)

 

I don't want Galloday (too costly and too injury prone).  Godwin isn't getting out of Tampa.  

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, mhd24 said:

Yeah, it was obvious the FO thought it was a major need (hence the going after Cooper).  There are some good cheap vet WRs available this Off-season who might be solid WR2s...

1). Hilton

2). Marvin Jones

3). AJ Green (although he looks close to done)

 

I don't want Galloday (too costly and too injury prone).  Godwin isn't getting out of Tampa.  

Hilton for the right price would be a major boon to any of the quarterbacks that could be behind center. He’s 31 and his projected market value is around 11.5M AAV. That’s a big number. But not astronomical and likely worth the cost. 
 

Allen Robinson is the ideal guy but he has a projected AAV of around 20 mil. Count me out. Godwin is a 18ish AAV... out there, too.

 

A steal could be Sammy Watkins, who has a projected 9.7M AAV. Corey Davis is the same. (Ironically in a vacuum you could get both of these guys for the same projected market value as you could get just Allen Robinson...)

 

Curtis Samuel would be a nice piece at 12 AAV.

 

Other names: Keelan Cole, Alex Erickson (slot for Cincy, had a big game last week) and Rashard Higgins (5.5M AAV!!).

 

Austin Mack is incredibly intriguing. But he, Allen Lazard among others are ERFA.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ball Security]

I’d add Josh Reynolds to that list.

I like C Davis the most if we get aggressive.  

[heyholetsgogrant]

3 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

What do those 4 teams have in common? They either have had a very good QB for as long as they were relevant or in the case of KC they had a coach who is the best at getting the most out of his QB.  Prior to Russell Wilson's arrival Seattle was (counting backwards from the year before he arrived) 7-9, 7-9, 5-11, 4-12.  Yes they made a SB under Holmgren (in a year when their QB made the Pro Bowl) but nobody would consider those Hawks teams relevant before Russell Wilson arrived, they had one winning season for the entire decade of the 90's. 

Those Seahawks teams were good with Hasselbeck. Like I said, there’s going to be gaps in between QB’s. But, those teams were relevant prior to getting franchise QB’s. The Chiefs for example had Trent Green, Elvis Gerbac, Montana (yes, an aging Montana), and Alex Smith before Mahomes (they had other game managing QB’s who got them to the playoffs too). Most teams are not going to be lucky like Green Bay with Farve and then hand the keys over to Rodgers - It almost NEVER happens (unless you have the GOAT coach like Gibbs and you can win any QB 🙂). Washington hasn’t been revenant in nearly 3 decades. I think what I see around the league is that competent (not necessarily elite) QB play with a good defense can be competitive in this league.

 

Edited December 31, 2020 by heyholetsgogrant

[profusion]

Just don't reach for a QB again, please. If a guy they like is there in the 2nd or middle rounds, fine. 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

Hilton for the right price would be a major boon to any of the quarterbacks that could be behind center. He’s 31 and his projected market value is around 11.5M AAV. That’s a big number. But not astronomical and likely worth the cost. 

 

 

He's been injury prone later in his career.  Between that and his age, I bet he can be had without breaking the bank. 

 

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

Allen Robinson is the ideal guy but he has a projected AAV of around 20 mil. Count me out. Godwin is a 18ish AAV... out there, too.

 

 

I like Robinson over Godwin and Golladay.  I don't know how crazy they'd go money wise but for some reason I suspect they go for Robinson.    He does it all, stud as for contested catches, separates well, decent blocker.   I think he's actually better than Amari Cooper who they went to town for in a bidding war last year.  I don't know if I would go crazy mainly because of other needs we got.  But to me he's the best WR on the market. 

 

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

A steal could be Sammy Watkins, who has a projected 9.7M AAV. Corey Davis is the same. (Ironically in a vacuum you could get both of these guys for the same projected market value as you could get just Allen Robinson...)

 

 

Corey Davis is emerging as a star.  The Titans have cap room, I bet they bring him back.   I'd like him here.  Don't love Watkins but he's better than we got now at Z. 

[HigSkin]

Drafting QB's is such a poop shoot...

 

 

Interesting indeed...

 

 

[Koolblue13]

I think the plan was to play Allen when Haskins **** the bed and that we'd end up with a QB worthy draft position, but Alex came back and shocked everyone and drove us to the playoffs.

[Skinsinparadise]

Standig's take on it

 

 

[tmandoug1]

Here is what I want like to see....

RR is obviously happy with both Hiny and Allen otherwise they wouldn't be here.

This off-season Alex Smith becomes our QB coach and grooms/evaluates those two for future expectations. Spend First round pick on left tackle and pick up LBrs and secondary help in FA. If a good QB prospect falls to us in the second round pull the trigger. (Darnold trade?)

 

I know Alex would be the highest paid QB coach in the world but a guy can dream......bet he would also make a great head coach.

Thanks for reading.

[heyholetsgogrant]

1 hour ago, HigSkin said:

Drafting QB's is such a poop shoot...

 

 

Interesting indeed...

 

 

If you go by first round, yes many are busts.  However, many of those QB’s serviceable and will be in the league a while at least as a backup.  I think there needs to be a another category, like colossal bust (Haskins). 😝

[Skinsinparadise]

Whatever QB we acquire, we can use a WR obviously, another TE.  Maybe LT. 

 

 

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Can anyone help with the cap hit if Alex retires or is released?  I think the best scenario is to have Alex and Kyle back, then find a QB early in the draft.  I'm not getting fooled by a half at garbage time in a prevent defense with regard to Heineke.  

 

I agree we would be in this same position or possible a better one had Kyle Allen not been hurt.  Dwayne cost the Seattle game, Allen could have won that.