2021 Comprehensive Draft Thread

[Forehead]

Well reading back, I see Mac Jones' family found ES and decided to stick up for him

 

I'm admittedly not as in depth a draftnik as some of you but I railed against Haskins pre-draft and after the pick.  I knew nothing about his work habits but got a chance to watch a lot of him being a Big 10 rival fan.  Haskins was a product of the talent around him, regardless of how many TD passes he threw.  Obviously, Penn State is going to be my clearest frame of reference, but they were one of the only teams Ohio State faced where the D-Line was good enough to make Haskins uncomfortable.  Most of the time, he had a clean uniform when the game was over.  In the Penn State game, he got hit several times and it was obvious he didn't like it.  Sure, no QB likes getting hit, but Haskins immediately started ducking, throwing off his back foot, etc.  They wound up adjusting in the second half so he threw almost nothing but screens and slants.  He clearly lacked a certain toughness I liked in QB prospects.

 

Now in fairness, I'm also the guy who thought Christian Hackenberg would be a good pro, so my evaluations are no better than anyone elses.  His freshman year, he had Bill O'Brien and a pro-style offense and lit things up.  Cannon arm, could hit all the professional throws.  And unlike Haskins, he had one weapon to throw to, Allen Robinson.  The RB's were a mishmash of crap, the TE and receivers were nothing special outside of Robinson.  He had a decent line but nothing like Ohio State routinely trots out.  Then O'Brien leaves and we get James Franklin and his O-coordinator, who installed a RPO and screen pass type offense.  This with a 6'4" QB who was a statue in the pocket.  Also weirdly, Hackenberg was the only QB I could remember whose accuracy got worse the shorter the throws got.  I've never seen that before, a guy who could drill 30-40 yard crossing routes, TE seam routes, lasers on the 15-20 yard out route...but 1/2 the screen passes he'd try to throw would hit the receiver in the feet, if it even got to them.  I can't remember another QB with those kind of reverse accuracy issues.

 

Anyway, I figured once he escaped that and got back to a pro style offense, he'd go back to lighting things up, and I beat the drum for him on this board.  So either Franklin and two years of a ****ty offense broke the kid, or Bill O'Brien is a damn good QB coach, however bad he may be at being a head coach.  That or Allen Robinson can really help cover up a lot of flaws.

[KDawg]

4 minutes ago, Forehead said:

Well reading back, I see Mac Jones' family found ES and decided to stick up for him

 

I'm admittedly not as in depth a draftnik as some of you but I railed against Haskins pre-draft and after the pick.  I knew nothing about his work habits but got a chance to watch a lot of him being a Big 10 rival fan.  Haskins was a product of the talent around him, regardless of how many TD passes he threw.  Obviously, Penn State is going to be my clearest frame of reference, but they were one of the only teams Ohio State faced where the D-Line was good enough to make Haskins uncomfortable.  Most of the time, he had a clean uniform when the game was over.  In the Penn State game, he got hit several times and it was obvious he didn't like it.  Sure, no QB likes getting hit, but Haskins immediately started ducking, throwing off his back foot, etc.  They wound up adjusting in the second half so he threw almost nothing but screens and slants.  He clearly lacked a certain toughness I liked in QB prospects.

 

Now in fairness, I'm also the guy who thought Christian Hackenberg would be a good pro, so my evaluations are no better than anyone elses.  His freshman year, he had Bill O'Brien and a pro-style offense and lit things up.  Cannon arm, could hit all the professional throws.  And unlike Haskins, he had one weapon to throw to, Allen Robinson.  The RB's were a mishmash of crap, the TE and receivers were nothing special outside of Robinson.  He had a decent line but nothing like Ohio State routinely trots out.  Then O'Brien leaves and we get James Franklin and his O-coordinator, who installed a RPO and screen pass type offense.  This with a 6'4" QB who was a statue in the pocket.  Also weirdly, Hackenberg was the only QB I could remember whose accuracy got worse the shorter the throws got.  I've never seen that before, a guy who could drill 30-40 yard crossing routes, TE seam routes, lasers on the 15-20 yard out route...but 1/2 the screen passes he'd try to throw would hit the receiver in the feet, if it even got to them.  I can't remember another QB with those kind of reverse accuracy issues.

 

Anyway, I figured once he escaped that and got back to a pro style offense, he'd go back to lighting things up, and I beat the drum for him on this board.  So either Franklin and two years of a ****ty offense broke the kid, or Bill O'Brien is a damn good QB coach, however bad he may be at being a head coach.  That or Allen Robinson can really help cover up a lot of flaws.

You started this talking about Mac Jones. And then... none of this is about Mac Jones... I low key appreciate this.

[Forehead]

8 minutes ago, KDawg said:

You started this talking about Mac Jones. And then... none of this is about Mac Jones... I low key appreciate this.

 

Just a commentary about the last few pages, I don't care much about the guy, I cared more about my two cents on Haskins.  But I'm also willing to admit when I'm wrong.

[Skinsinparadise]

@KDawg is killing it as for diving into so many prospects so fast.  He's making me feel lazy.  I got to get to work.  I'll go at it soon.   I've spent too much time diving into QBs.  Now to other positions. 

[XxSpearheadxX]

It would be awesome to draft the Kam Curl of linebackers in 2021

[Going Commando]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I am in the same place about Jones.   I disagree with those who say Trask is better.    Trask IMO doesn't have much pocket prescense, has slow feet, doesn't throw that hot on the move, folds under pressure.  Jones while not that mobile he is distinctly more mobile than Trask.  He isn't fast but has somewhat quick feet, he can throw on the move, too.   His accuracy IMO is fine.  He also has more arm strength than Trask.  Granted Trask isn't the highest bar.  

 

He's got noisy feet, more so than quick feet.  It goes from "urgent" to "panicked" quite a bit.  And he is a lumberer.  He can labor for 7 or 8 yards in a wide open field before a defense completely recovers to him, but that is absolutely basic.  It's splitting hairs to say one is more mobile than the other, they're both going to struggle with muddy pockets and early pressure at the next level and neither of them give you any threat to run.  Haskins was more mobile than them, and if anything, I think Trask throws better on boots and scrambles than Jones does.

 

I'm not a Trask fan and I don't think he belongs anywhere near the first round, but I do think he's better than Jones.  The stuff people seem to be claiming about Mac Jones's accuracy is actually true about Kyle Trask.  He throws with noticeably better consistency, touch, timing, and placement to me, especially on throws outside the numbers.  His arm strength is very lacking, but the touch and placement is superb and he still has the ability to throw strikes downfield in the seams around those deep safety zones.  NFL-type windows in the coverage.  There are so many throws of him beating completely in phase coverage down the field and outside of the numbers just because he put the ball in the perfect spot.  Those were almost routine big plays from him this season.  He is what an accurate touch thrower looks like, not Jones.

 

So far this class has been top three QB prospects or bust for me.  I've hesitated to give a strong take on Lance because I've only been able to watch his one game and his highlight reels.  The raw athletic traits are certainly Lamar Jackson-esque, and we've seen pure traits get Jordan Love drafted in the first and Josh Allen drafted 7th overall and Justin Herbert drafted 6th, and the latter have worked out.  So it's not crazy that Lance could go top ten.  But I think he's a bad fit for our team in particular.  There is no way I would trust this coaching staff with a super raw and highly drafted QB who struggles with his accuracy and is so far away from being able to read coverages and pressures at an NFL level.  Especially because the kid is going to have to start next year if Alex retires.  To me that is the kind of move that will get Rivera fired.

[Koolblue13]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

RB	Every Down	College	Ht/Wt
1	Najee Harris	Alabama	6-2, 230
2	Javante Williams	UNC	5-10, 220
3	Travis Etienne	Clemson	5-10, 200
4	Jaret Patterson*	Buffalo	5-9, 195
5	Michael Carter	UNC	5-8, 199
6	CJ Verdell*	Oregon	5-9, 210
7	Chuba Hubbard*	Oklahoma State	6-1, 207
8	Kylin Hill	Miss. State	5-11, 215
9	Trey Sermon	Ohio State	6-0, 216
10	Trey Ragas	La-Lafayette	5-11, 227
11	Jermar Jefferson*	Oregon State	5-10, 214
12	Keaontay Ingram*	Texas	6-0, 220
13	Spencer Brown	UAB	6-1, 220
14	Elijah Mitchell	Louisiana	5-11, 221

 

 

 

	Weapon/Homerun
1	Max Borghi*	Washington State	5-10, 197
2	Kenneth Gainwell	Memphis	5-11, 191
3	Demetric Felton	UCLA	5-9, 189

 

 

	Power
1	Rhamondre Stevenson	Oklahoma	6-0, 236
2	Brian Robinson, Jr.	Alabama	6-1, 221
3	Stevie Scott*	Indiana	6-2, 231

 

 

Travis Etienne Clemson 5-10, 200

Great change of direction runner and a real problem in the open field. Doesn't have great patience or vision at the LoS but he is a very bursty runner that when he hits a hole has top end second level vision and acceleration. His change of direction is top end elite. He can break tackles with the best of them as long as he has some forward momentum built, so if he gets to the LoS you better wrap him up. He has NFL top end receiving skills. He is extremely poor as a pass blocker, though.

 

Najee Harris Alabama 6-2, 230

Patient runner that knows how to set his blocks and burst through the hole. Runs through arm tackles and drives his feet at all times. Great change of direction and tremendous situational awareness. He has really good hands. His ability can make an offensive line look better than they are. Aggressive runner. Solid in pass protection. Has off the charts agility and intelligence. Can literally do anything asked of him. He is the best prospect at running back since Barkley, and he could be an even better prospect than him. 

 

Chuba Hubbard* Oklahoma State 6-1, 207

Runs a lot like Etienne. Great burst beyond the LoS. Aggressive runner on inside hitters, gets to the edge well on outside schemes. Quick and patient runner. Good change of direction. Breaks tackles in the open field. He is not the same as a receiver as Etienne, though. And that's the primary item that sets them apart. I didn't see him in pass pro a whole lot in any of the cut ups, which isn't a great omen for him as far as his ability.

 

Max Borghi* Washington State 5-10, 197

Shifty and elusive. His size makes him tough to see behind the line and he uses his "disadvantage" of being small(er) as an advantage. He has tremendous shift and wiggle and he's hard to make solid contact with. Doesn't hit the hole with great burst in the run game because he is constantly looking for the running lane. His feet are always moving and it looks like his steps per yard is sky high, which allows him to change his lane in a hiccup. He is a reliable, steady back with home run potential in the mold of Austin Ekeler. He won't be a bellcow but he is a touch monster where if utilized correctly can be extremely productive.

 

Keaontay Ingram* Texas 6-0, 220

Slightly smaller than Najee and doesn't have the same footwork. But he is an excellent one cut runner who doesn't shy from contact. He's adequate as a receiver and hits the hole with extreme burst. He mixes patience with anxiousness asa runner where at times he looks like he's trying to force things but then sometimes he sets his blocks up and explodes. He is tough to bring down and he's a productive runner and decent receiver. He seems to lose his balance a bit at times but still a strong runner.

 

Trey Sermon Ohio State 6-0, 216

Runs with a mean streak. Concerns about the reasoning for his late surge in the 2020-2021 season, but having had an injury previously and playing in the Big Ten with a shortened and delayed schedule could easily be the reasoning. Not particularly standout as a pass catcher but he can do it a little bit. He doesn't have a fast change of direction speed so accelerated cut backs aren't really his forte. He has a nasty stiff arm and is good in pass protection. His best skill is his ability to run through contact.

 

CJ Verdell* Oregon 5-9, 210

Athletic and shifty. Receiving threat. High end athleticism that will throw his shoulder into anyone, especially at the goal line. His patience and reads aren't where they need to be for an inside zone scheme runner, but when there is a hole he is electric and getting the ball in space is a recipe for a disaster for defenses. He is a second level runner. What's really impressive for me is that a guy that athletic can drive his feet so well. He actually reminds me of Antonio Gibson a little bit. I have him ranked where he is for the time being, but injuries are something that need to continue to be monitored. That is a concern for him at the next level.

 

Demetric Felton UCLA 5-9, 189

Good receiver used in the flats and in the screen game. One of the more unheralded backs in the draft class, likely due to the fact that he's smaller and he plays for UCLA. He changes direction extremely well while moving near top speed, which is one of his breakout attributes. He translates to more of a "weapon" type of player in the NFL, similar to a Ty Montgomery type. His stop and go move in the backfield as a runner is dangerous if a defensive tackle comes crashing down on him but if he's smart and uses it well he stops and starts so fast that defenses will be left totally off guard. He is a playmaker.

 

Brian Robinson, Jr. Alabama 6-1, 221

Sample size is low... Simply due to the fact he plays behind one of the better running back prospects in the last decade. He isn't a quick twitch back who moves well. He's a big bruiser type who runs directly through tacklers rather than around him. He has good "box" ability (in a confined space he is very shifty). He will carry defenders for extra yards. He is a capable receiver in the backfield as well. He probably translates to more of a short yardage bruiser at the next level that can run to the outside and inside and is decent in pass protection. His ranking won't really reflect it but he is a very solid role player type of back that given the right opportunity will flourish.

 

Trey Ragas La-Lafayette 5-11, 227

"Short" but compact and strong. Good inside runner who sees the holes well. He doesn't necessarily create seams with his patience, but he sees the open lanes and takes them. He uses his off ball hand well for balance and for shedding tackles. He doesn't stretch the field as well horizontally on outside plays as he runs inside. Is a capable receiver with some wiggle. Has a great stutter step move to freeze level 2.

 

Spencer Brown UAB 6-1, 220

Strong runner with decent speed. He doesn't have a whole lot of wiggle and his hands are just okay. His vision isn't where you want it to be for a full time starting back. He isn't a great blocker, evidenced by a pass play against Miami where he ran a route that was designed to take him into position to block a second level defender and he just struggled to break down and make the play.

 

Jermar Jefferson* Oregon State 5-10, 214

He plays very similarly to CJ Verdell stylistically. He's not quite the receiver and he doesn't have the same downhill attack mentality as Verdell as it pertains to making contact. But he is shifty and explosive. His hands aren't quite on the Verdell level, but he could translate long term into an every down NFL back. He doesn't break the tackles you'd like to see, but he is a player that would benefit from another year in college. Since he has already declared, though, he is a guy worth drafting and developing because once he picks up a few minor things he can be extremely dangerous.

 

Kylin Hill Miss. State 5-11, 215

His blocking stands out. He recognizes the rush and gets himself in good position. He's not a stonewall guy ala Portis, but he is a "ride him out" guy. He's not going to wow you with many pancake type blocks. He's a strong downhill runner and has very good situational awareness. Very good stutter read step at times where the hole isn't quite there yet. His strength though is his value in the passing game, both as a protector and as a receiver. He is a very productive receiver even though his receiving ability isn't as flashy as an Etienne or Verdell/Jefferson/Borghi type. He can function as an every down back.

 

Michael Carter UNC 5-8, 199

He is compact at 5-8, but he plays a lot bigger than that. He gets to the edge and doesn't shy from any contact. Extremely agile and he keeps his feet churning when he gets to traffic. What stands out is his steps per minute when he gets to traffic. His running pattern changes slightly and that allows him to change direction, run through tackles or accelerate and lengthen his gait. Electric player despite his height. Watching his shoulder pads he tries to stay square and low as much as possible so his vision is excellent as well.

 

Javante Williams UNC 5-10, 220

Excellent receiving threat out of the backfield. Downhill style runner who seems to always fall forwards for that extra yard or two when he isn't carrying guys. Sound in pass protection and understands when to leak and when not to. Has through the roof balance and agility. He uses his off ball hand really well and it's always active and never along for the ride. Runs with power and has the pad level you'd like to see from a bellcow type NFL back.

 

Kenneth Gainwell Memphis 5-11, 191

Used a lot as a receiver as well as a back. Primarily a bubble receiver but ran some quick outs and hitches. Downhill runner who tries to "cross over" defenders and that slows him down a touch. Good athlete and overall reliable hands, but sometimes drops the easy ones. He is a guy that needs to be on the field as much as possible but not necessarily as the back. Explosive weapon similar to his former teammate Antonio Gibson. Doesn't quite have the same build as Gibson and is built more like a receiver than a back. But he certainly has running back skills that Gibson didn't in college.

 

Jaret Patterson* Buffalo 5-9, 195

If production is the barometer for a back, look no further than Patterson. His speed, as in raw speed, isn't top end. But his on-field speed most certainly is. Smaller back but built like a brick outhouse in a winter storm that doesn't topple. His footwork and processing is top end. He's shifty and not afraid of anything. And despite being under 200 pounds, his mass looks larger than that as he runs downhill, inside, outside and uses his size to sneak through small spaces and drop a shoulder and run through contact. In his career at Buffalo he averaged 6.1 yards a carry and never rushed for under 1000 yards... Including this season where he did it in just 6 games. He also averages 17.3 TD/season. Production is never the end all be all, but his ability matches and he is going to wind up being a steal due to his size in this draft class.

 

Stevie Scott* Indiana 6-2, 231

Not fast or electric, but good size and can get tough yards. He is adequate in pass pro, stepping up into contact and walling off defenders. He could do a better job selling his play fakes. I wouldn't have him as an immediate every down player in the NFL and I'd reserve him for more of a power role.

 

Elijah Mitchell Louisiana 5-11, 221

Relatively productive runner. He can gain tough yards when he gets open space, but he doesn't have great elusiveness when it comes to creating his space by setting up blocks or making a defender miss. His side to side agility and change of direction isn't quite where you'd like it to be and his power doesn't make up for that.

 

Rhamondre Stevenson Oklahoma 6-0, 236

Pure, unadulterated power. He breaks tackles on seemingly every run and averaged 3.89 yards after contact for the season. This is an incredible rate for a power back. The concern with him is that he is kind of a one trick pony. He is serviceable in pass pro but he isn't much of a receiver, though I don't think it's impossible for him to catch some balls. He probably isn't on the field in most third down situations. I think he classifies more as a power back than an every down back, but he can certainly be relied on for entire games and 20-30 carries per game.

 

If we don't land Harris, I hope we can pick up Williams. Stevenson would be a lot of fun and a change of pace too. I wonder how he's do as a hybrid FB at times.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Forehead said:

Well reading back, I see Mac Jones' family found ES and decided to stick up for him

 

I'm admittedly not as in depth a draftnik as some of you but I railed against Haskins pre-draft and after the pick.  I knew nothing about his work habits but got a chance to watch a lot of him being a Big 10 rival fan.  Haskins was a product of the talent around him, regardless of how many TD passes he threw.  Obviously, Penn State is going to be my clearest frame of reference, but they were one of the only teams Ohio State faced where the D-Line was good enough to make Haskins uncomfortable.  Most of the time, he had a clean uniform when the game was over.  In the Penn State game, he got hit several times and it was obvious he didn't like it.  Sure, no QB likes getting hit, but Haskins immediately started ducking, throwing off his back foot, etc.  They wound up adjusting in the second half so he threw almost nothing but screens and slants.  He clearly lacked a certain toughness I liked in QB prospects.

 

So did I as for Haskins and the Penn State game was part of it.  Beyond being flustered, you could also see how clunky his footwork is and by his extension accuracy when flushed out of the pocket where he was on the move. 

 

The biggest misperception about Haskins IMO was that since he had a strong arm his strength was throwing down the field but IMO that was a weakness not a strength.  Haskins deep ball and intermediate passing game especially as for out routes was errartic at best.   Ohio State hid that well and had him throw so much in the flat.  His strength IMO was hitting 5-10 yard in routes in between the numbers:  slants, shallow crossers, digs, etc. Mesh concepts.   Outside of his sweet spot his accuracy was sketchy and if I had any doubts about that it was confirmed when I watched him throw in training camp. 

 

As for Mac Jones, I think he's a really hard evaluation because its harder to seperate context with him than it was with Haskins IMO.  Overalll, I don't love Mac.  I am sort of in between the ones who really like him and the ones who rule him out.  In the throes of watching him in real time (including once in person) in games, I tend to like him.  When I am digesting him outside of watching the games in real time, when I reflect some about it I tend to like him less.

 

Some of things you don't like about Haskins though I don't see parallels to Jones.  Jones hangs in the pocket well. I like his footwork better both as to readjusting in the pocket or throwing on the move.  He throws a better deep ball.   He has better pocket presence IMO.  What I like the most about Jones is he can sell play action well and seems to understands how to try to manipulate the free safety with his eyes and body language.   Haskins isn't hot at that either IMO.

 

Haskins has the more live arm than Jones.  Haskins can throw a bullet into a tight window (albeit with sketchy accuracy).  Jones' release is fast enough but Haskins' release is faster.  Haskins has more raw talent than Jones.  But IMO Jones is the more polished passer.    The WFT couldn't even get a 7th round pick for Haskins according to national observers whereas Jones is likely going in the first/2nd round. 

 

I think Jones is both underrated and overrated depending on the evaluation in my opinion.  I like his accuracy but its not as good as some of his big supporters say IMO ala some of the posts below.  I think his accuracy/completion percentage is inflated because of open receivers and contested catches.   And can you beat play action when you got N. Harris in the backfield?

 

Jones throws the ball down the field well, sometimes he underthrows.  But its not like Haskins who was often about a 5 yard slant to Parris Campbell who would then take it for a 50 yard play.    PFF charted Haskins throws and if I recall said he was the single most reliant QB prospect that year on YAC.  Jones isn't as reliant on YAC.   But again he has open receivers and relies on contest catches.

 

QB gurus like Arians, Shanny, Gibbs have all said intangibles/work ethic are key for a QB.  From what I read, Jones is a big time hard worker.  

 

So in short, I see the argument for.  I see the argument against.  He's not who I'd want at 19.  But if the FO pulls the trigger for Jones I personally won't cry about it like I did at the time when they picked Haskins for the simple reason that I could see the narrative if they do it.  I can see why some like Jones and also why some don't.  My issue with him is I think his ceiling it low.  But it wouldn't shock me if he had a more successful career than Haskins.

 

Of the tweets/info below Brugler somes it best for me. 

 

 

 

 

https://www.pff.com/news/draft-2021-nfl-mock-draft-dolphins-select-qb-justin-fields-with-pick-no-3-49ers-send-pick-no-12-to-miami-for-qb-tua-tagovailoa

8. CAROLINA PANTHERS: QB MAC JONES, ALABAMA

Oh, hello! Mac Jones has skyrocketed up draft boards this season and, in my opinion, has played his way above North Dakota State's Trey Lance.

Teddy Bridgewater didn't particularly hit the ground running in Carolina. He produced just a 66.4 passing grade (28th) and has been one of the worst downfield passers in the league, ranking fifth-to-last in uncatchable pass rate on passes thrown 10 or more yards downfield.

With Jones, the Panthers still won’t be getting a bazooka of an arm, but they will be getting a pinpoint accurate passer, a sharp decision-maker and a quarterback who has routinely displayed perfect timing and anticipation in Alabama’s offense.

Jones enters tonight's national championship game with the highest PFF grade that we have ever given to a Power 5 quarterback at 95.7, breaking the record set by Burrow in 2019. He also shattered the previous record for best single-season negatively graded throw rate (that was also previously held by Burrow in 2019) by a great distance.

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

 

I'm not a Trask fan and I don't think he belongs anywhere near the first round, but I do think he's better than Jones.  The stuff people seem to be claiming about Mac Jones's accuracy is actually true about Kyle Trask.  He throws with noticeably better consistency, touch, timing, and placement to me, especially on throws outside the numbers.  His arm strength is very lacking, but the touch and placement is superb and he still has the ability to throw strikes downfield in the seams around those deep safety zones.  NFL-type windows in the coverage.  There are so many throws of him beating completely in phase coverage down the field and outside of the numbers just because he put the ball in the perfect spot.  Those were almost routine big plays from him this season.  He is what an accurate touch thrower looks like, not Jones.

 

 

I am good with Mac as a roll of the dice player.  He wouldn't be my guy at 19 by a long shot but I wouldn't go nuts if they took him.   😀    Not so much Trask.  I'd be upset if they took him with the first round pick.  I think both are second round talents (Mac early 2nd, Trask later 2nd) but I suspect Mac goes in the first and Trask goes late 2nd. 

 

After it looked clear we wouldn't be picking early, I spent a lot of time watching both players because I wanted to be sold.   I've seen Mac play live once -- to me it helps to see QBs that way because you can get a better sense of their accuracy/velocity and how they see the field.   I've watched almost every UF and Alabama games this season in real time and rewatched what I could on youtube.  None of this makes me an expert on either dude.  Heck the professionals get it wrong all the time on QBs and I am no professional obviously.  But I am just explaining why I am more opinionated in my take on these two players than maybe any other two in the draft at this point  because I spent the most time on them.

 

I've posted plenty on both.  But for some quick rehash.  I agree Trask has had some nice outside the numbers throws.  I've pointed that out on this thread before.    My top issue with him centers on if a QB isn't mobile then I want quick feet and pocket presence like a Tom Brady or Drew Brees.  Trask isn't that dude IMO.  He doesn't have the mobility or pocket presence.  And you can survive that in college but good luck in the pros.  

 

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

He's got noisy feet, more so than quick feet.  It goes from "urgent" to "panicked" quite a bit.  And he is a lumberer.  He can labor for 7 or 8 yards in a wide open field before a defense completely recovers to him, but that is absolutely basic.  It's splitting hairs to say one is more mobile than the other, they're both going to struggle with muddy pockets and early pressure at the next level and neither of them give you any threat to run.  Haskins was more mobile than them, and if anything, I think Trask throws better on boots and scrambles than Jones does.

 

 

This to me is a perfect description of Trask in the pocket as opposed to Jones.   Trask even looks clunky to me in designed roll outs.  He's a bigger less agile looking dude than Jones and IMO he plays that way, too.   Like I said I've tried to talk myself into Trask.  His accuracy on certain tough throws is what I like but I have hard time finding how he could do well in the NFL without great protection and weapons.  When he played his last game without Toney and Pitts he looked like a hot mess. 

 

Don't get me wrong, Jones isn't like Tony Romo or a Zach Wilson type in the pocket.  But he seems to be able to feel pressure well, reset his feet, move up in the pocket when needed.   Jones also throws better IMO when he is rolling from the pocket.   It's Trask from what I observed who gets flustered more.  All QBs at some points get flustered but I am talking as a pattern.  Haskins is faster when he just takes off and escapes pressure by turning it into a QB scramble but he IMO has the more clunky footwork/accuracy of all three when flushed out of the pocket if they go is to reset and throw on the move or off platform. 

 

I explained in more detail what I like and don't about Jones in a post I made to another just a few minutes ago.  I think both dudes are sometimes tough to gauge because they both benefit greatly from good protection, wide open receivers and receivers who can make contested catches. 

 

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

So far this class has been top three QB prospects or bust for me.  I've hesitated to give a strong take on Lance because I've only been able to watch his one game and his highlight reels.  The raw athletic traits are certainly Lamar Jackson-esque, and we've seen pure traits get Jordan Love drafted in the first and Josh Allen drafted 7th overall and Justin Herbert drafted 6th, and the latter have worked out.  So it's not crazy that Lance could go top ten.  But I think he's a bad fit for our team in particular.  There is no way I would trust this coaching staff with a super raw and highly drafted QB who struggles with his accuracy and is so far away from being able to read coverages and pressures at an NFL level.  Especially because the kid is going to have to start next year if Alex retires.  To me that is the kind of move that will get Rivera fired.

 

Lance last I looked had two games on youtube. I watched them both and also the highlights.  He's raw for reasons I explained in detail in the past but his athleticism is really appealing to me.  I wouldn't trade the farm for him though.   I share your liking of Zach Wilson.  And I gather I like Justin Fields more than you do though you seem to be warming up to him some.  😀

 

I agree with you that Mac isn't in that conversation with the top guys.  To me Mac is a roll of the dice.  He could work out, he could end up "meh", or a bust.  I wouldn't bet my mortgage on him.   But if I am rolling the dice, I'd take him over Trask.   And while draft geeks opinions are meaningless in the scheme of things -- just about all of them agree with me on this point so I am not on an island on it. 

[Commander -JB-]

If there’s an elite OL prospect sitting at 19 grab him or trade down to obtain extra picks.  

[JamesMadisonSkins]

I think we should expect a couple of "Logan Thomas" type additions this off-season. They worked more often than not this year, and they don't cost a lot of $$. And that, combined with 1-2 splash signings (where we have the $$ to spend) could really free the draft up to go any direction. And then, to me, it boils down to whether we are prioritizing QB this off-season or prioritizing strengthening the core of the roster and kicking the can down the road.

 

Of course, very few of us are going to "see" this year's Logan Thomas or JD McKissic signings. We are just going to have to trust the front office. It could be someone none of us have really heard of, or it could be going after Curtis Samuel instead of Allen Robinson and saving some $$ that way.

 

Some names I'd keep an eye on ... Curtis Samuel and Taylor Moton. Both could and should get paid good $$ this year, but if the FO wants to nail down WR and the OL and really free up the draft those would be two logical signings. But both were drafted for Rivera's systems in Carolina, and if we think they'll be bringing in "system guys" those two might fit well. Obv. OL is less system than maybe some skill positions or even QB, but just a hunch. Those are definitely not the "logal thomas" type signings though, as those two will command decent pay days.

[seantaylor=god]

54 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

 

https://www.pff.com/news/draft-2021-nfl-mock-draft-dolphins-select-qb-justin-fields-with-pick-no-3-49ers-send-pick-no-12-to-miami-for-qb-tua-tagovailoa

8. CAROLINA PANTHERS: QB MAC JONES, ALABAMA

Oh, hello! Mac Jones has skyrocketed up draft boards this season and, in my opinion, has played his way above North Dakota State's Trey Lance.

Teddy Bridgewater didn't particularly hit the ground running in Carolina. He produced just a 66.4 passing grade (28th) and has been one of the worst downfield passers in the league, ranking fifth-to-last in uncatchable pass rate on passes thrown 10 or more yards downfield.

With Jones, the Panthers still won’t be getting a bazooka of an arm, but they will be getting a pinpoint accurate passer, a sharp decision-maker and a quarterback who has routinely displayed perfect timing and anticipation in Alabama’s offense.

Jones enters tonight's national championship game with the highest PFF grade that we have ever given to a Power 5 quarterback at 95.7, breaking the record set by Burrow in 2019. He also shattered the previous record for best single-season negatively graded throw rate (that was also previously held by Burrow in 2019) by a great distance.

 

 

 

God, can we please stop talking about Mac Jones? Ken Dorsey looked good surrounded by NFL studs as well.  

[JamesMadisonSkins]

 

1 minute ago, seantaylor=god said:

God, can we please stop talking about Mac Jones? Ken Dorsey looked good surrounded by NFL studs as well.  

 

So is there a solution at QB at #19 for you? If Mac Jones is a no-go, then I assume you're hoping one of the Top 4 falls to #19? I'm not sure I am seeing a free agent solution (long term at least) at QB. But I could definitely be wrong there.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, seantaylor=god said:

God, can we please stop talking about Mac Jones? Ken Dorsey looked good surrounded by NFL studs as well.  

 

I am not pushing Mac Jones.   it's like any prospect here.  if someone wants to discuss then we go at it.  If you are bored by it, I get it but then just don't read the post.  😀

 

I don't feel like discussing it but if a good supporting cast rules out prospects then a lot of good NFL QBs would not have been drafted. 

[Est.1974]

I will be amazed if Elway passes over Jones.

[SemperFi Skins]

If it's not Lawrence, who will undoubtedly go #1, then it would need to be Zach Wilson... who I also assume would need to be traded up for

 

Possibly Trey Lance at 19 but I'm not much for 'high-ceiling needs polishing and time' or 'raw' qb's...

 

Zach Wilson is ultimately my guy.

 

perfectly fine not taking a QB in this draft if those 3 are gone.

 

[PartyPosse]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

If we don't land Harris, I hope we can pick up Williams. Stevenson would be a lot of fun and a change of pace too. I wonder how he's do as a hybrid FB at times.

Stevenson is the perfect complimentary back to AG and JD.

[KDawg]

31 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

 

 

So is there a solution at QB at #19 for you? If Mac Jones is a no-go, then I assume you're hoping one of the Top 4 falls to #19? I'm not sure I am seeing a free agent solution (long term at least) at QB. But I could definitely be wrong there.

If the top 4 are gone? No. There’s not. Get better elsewhere.

 

In the second and beyond Shane Buechele, Jamie Newman, Kellen Mond are names to keep an eye on.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

I think Javonte Williams would be a nice fit for our offense. Breaks a ton of tackles. Sneaky speed. Powerful. 
 

Not sure where they’re projecting him but round 3 looks about right to me. 

[Skinsinparadise]

24 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

Stevenson is the perfect complimentary back to AG and JD.

 

Stevenson would be fun especially when the weather gets cold in the playoffs.

 

 

 

 

here is some of it

 

 

[mhd24]

Dane Bugler with a 2 round mock at the Athletic:

 

https://theathletic.com/2316582/2021/01/12/nfl-mock-draft-devonta-smith/

 

He has us taking Vera-Tucker over Collins (22) and Najee (27).

 

He has us with Marshall (WR from LSU) (51) over Rondale Moore in (53) the 2nd round

 

 

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Stevenson would be fun especially when the weather gets cold in the playoffs.

 

 

 

 

here is some of it

 

 

Beat me by seconds SIP!

[Koolblue13]

Collins is going in the teens like most rock solid LBs. 13-18 ranger. The OTs, CBs, and WRs will all shoot up like they do every year. RBs, most likely, will be in the 20's and later.

 

My hope is that Collins slips to 19 and then we can move back up into the late first for Harris.

 

I of course want Pitts, but doesn't seem realistic. 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

35 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Collins is going in the teens like most rock solid LBs. 13-18 ranger. The OTs, CBs, and WRs will all shoot up like they do every year. RBs, most likely, will be in the 20's and later.

 

My hope is that Collins slips to 19 and then we can move back up into the late first for Harris.

 

I of course want Pitts, but doesn't seem realistic. 

 

If I could trade up for Pitts giving up one of the third rounders, I'd do it in 2 seconds.   I don't think depth is the main issue on offense -- I believe we need another star -- game breaker type.

[Koolblue13]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

If I could trade up for Pitts giving up one of the third rounders, I'd do it in 2 seconds.   I don't think depth is the main issue on offense -- I believe we need another star -- game breaker type.

I don't think Depth is the issue either. It's definitely talent. Pitts would be amazing, especially if we can add a WR in FA and draft a big CoP RB.

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I don't think Depth is the issue either. It's definitely talent. Pitts would be amazing, especially if we can add a WR in FA and draft a big CoP RB.

 

Yep.  I didn't make that comment thinking you might be seeing it otherwise.  I was just doubling down on my own thought which is the more I think about it the more I want a real game changer to add to the passing game.    Pitts IMO is so special, that I'd be willing to trade some capital to go get him.