2021 Comprehensive Draft Thread

[CapsSkins]

Would you rather have Pitts or Najee Harris if you think you can sign Allen Robinson in FA?

[Darth Tater]

Offensively, I would still see if I could get a great OT.  Not so much to improve protection of the QB but Trent was a big part of why so much of our dink game turned into big plays. With guys like Gibson, McKissic or even a Steven Sims (rookie edition), our quick passing game could blow it up!

[Koolblue13]

12 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Yep.  I didn't make that comment thinking you might be seeing it otherwise.  I was just doubling down on my own thought which is the more I think about it the more I want a real game changer to add to the passing game.    Pitts IMO is so special, that I'd be willing to trade some capital to go get him. 

 

 

 

I can't remember a TE so highly regarded since Kellen Winslow Jr.

 

Who I was mad we didn't draft

12 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

Would you rather have Pitts or Najee Harris if you think you can sign Allen Robinson in FA?

Pitts x100 out of 100 and I'm a big Harris guy.

 

Harris is, as steve puts it, the best back since Barkley.

 

There is no comparison for Pitts.

[Skinsinparadise]

17 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

Would you rather have Pitts or Najee Harris if you think you can sign Allen Robinson in FA?

 

I love both players but this one is easy for me.  It's Pitts by a mile.  It's not incredibly difficult to find a really good RB. 

 

Pitts' skill set for a TE is unique -- he's not the type of dude who you typically find at TE during an average draft. 

 

 

 

 

Waddle at 23?

 

 

 

[CapsSkins]

5 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

 

Pitts x100 out of 100 and I'm a big Harris guy.

 

Harris is, as steve puts it, the best back since Barkley.

 

There is no comparison for Pitts.

 

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I love both players but this one is easy for me.  It's Pitts by a mile.  It's not incredibly difficult to find a really good RB. 

 

Pitts' skill set for a TE is unique -- he's not the type of dude who you typically find at TE during an average draft. 

 

Okay let's make this more interesting

 

Would you rather trade a 3rd to move up 5-6 spots to draft Pitts or stand pat at 19 if you were confident you could get Najee there? 

[Number 44]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

As for Mac Jones, I think he's a really hard evaluation because its harder to seperate context with him than it was with Haskins IMO.  Overalll, I don't love Mac.  I am sort of in between the ones who really like him and the ones who rule him out.  In the throes of watching him in real time (including once in person) in games, I tend to like him.  When I am digesting him outside of watching the games in real time, when I reflect some about it I tend to like him less.

 

Some of things you don't like about Haskins though I don't see parallels to Jones.  Jones hangs in the pocket well. I like his footwork better both as to readjusting in the pocket or throwing on the move.  He throws a better deep ball.   He has better pocket presence IMO.  What I like the most about Jones is he can sell play action well and seems to understands how to try to manipulate the free safety with his eyes and body language.   Haskins isn't hot at that either IMO.

 

Haskins has the more live arm than Jones.  Haskins can throw a bullet into a tight window (albeit with sketchy accuracy).  Jones' release is fast enough but Haskins' release is faster.  Haskins has more raw talent than Jones.  But IMO Jones is the more polished passer.    The WFT couldn't even get a 7th round pick for Haskins according to national observers whereas Jones is likely going in the first/2nd round. 

 

I think Jones is both underrated and overrated depending on the evaluation in my opinion.  I like his accuracy but its not as good as some of his big supporters say IMO ala some of the posts below.  I think his accuracy/completion percentage is inflated because of open receivers and contested catches.   And can you beat play action when you got N. Harris in the backfield?

 

Jones throws the ball down the field well, sometimes he underthrows.  But its not like Haskins who was often about a 5 yard slant to Parris Campbell who would then take it for a 50 yard play.    PFF charted Haskins throws and if I recall said he was the single most reliant QB prospect that year on YAC.  Jones isn't as reliant on YAC.   But again he has open receivers and relies on contest catches.

 

QB gurus like Arians, Shanny, Gibbs have all said intangibles/work ethic are key for a QB.  From what I read, Jones is a big time hard worker.  

 

So in short, I see the argument for.  I see the argument against.  He's not who I'd want at 19.  But if the FO pulls the trigger for Jones I personally won't cry about it like I did at the time when they picked Haskins for the simple reason that I could see the narrative if they do it.  I can see why some like Jones and also why some don't.  My issue with him is I think his ceiling it low.  But it wouldn't shock me if he had a more successful career than Haskins.

I appreciate your acknowledgment that evaluating Jones is difficult.  I think you've hit on some very incongruent points that need examination.  You have pointed out some of the commonly stated "negative" points about Jones, while also recognizing some of his strengths.  Some of these actually go hand-in-hand, and when we `analyze them, maybe some of the "negatives" aren't very negative at all.

 

Many people somehow fault him for throwing to wide open receivers.  To me, that is in no way a negative for a quarterback.  First, he hits them at a very high rate - which is extremely important.  And little thought seems to be given to whether Jones has had anything to do with them being so wide open.  You touched on it yourself, when mentioning his abilities to sell play action, use his eyes and body language to manipulate the defense, and his pocket presence and ability to move within the pocket.  These things are a big part of the reason the receivers are open.  They just are.  These are NFL qualities in a QB.

 

Another "negative" you mention is hitting contested receivers.  Hitting contested receivers is also a strength, not a weakness, that is vital for an NFL QB, IMO.  Knowing the strengths and tendencies of your receivers and being able to "throw them open" is huge in my mind.  Throwing that contested ball in such a way that your receiver has a chance to catch it, but the defender really doesn't is a huge plus that speaks to the accuracy, as well as the football IQ, of a QB.  I think the tendency to somehow sluff that off as being 100% due to the receiver's skills and 0% attributed to the QB is not a very good way to look at it.

 

And the very common notion that playing with other really good players is somehow a negative has never made sense to me.  First, it totally overlooks the fact that Jones is also playing against many players that will soon be playing on Sunday.  Additionally, to pretend that his teammates make him a better player without acknowledging the possibility that the reverse is also true flies in the face of reason, yet it is a notion that seems to be held by more than a few folks.  Just read this thread for a few pages.

 

He didn't lay an egg in any game this season.  Consistency, confidence, and leadership.  Three qualities I certainly want to see in my QB.  How about you?

[Koolblue13]

5 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

 

Okay let's make this more interesting

 

Would you rather trade a 3rd to move up 5-6 spots to draft Pitts or stand pat at 19 if you were confident you could get Najee there? 

Pitts hands down.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, CapsSkins said:

 

 

Okay let's make this more interesting

 

Would you rather trade a 3rd to move up 5-6 spots to draft Pitts or stand pat at 19 if you were confident you could get Najee there? 

 

lol, its not that interesting to me.  I am in the camp that think Najee will be there at 19.  He's there and later in almost every mock -- not that it means anything in the scheme of things but I agree with the idea behind the point which is RBs tend to drop.

 

4 to 5 QBs can go before our pick.  3-4 CBs.  3-4 tackles.  those positions tend to go early.  I'd put money that Najee falls to 19.  

 

Now if Waddle is there at 19 that strikes me more interesting, that to me would be a slight surprise.   But if I can trade up for Pitts where I just give up a third, I'd do it in that context, too. 

[86 Snyder]

3 minutes ago, Number 44 said:

I appreciate your acknowledgment that evaluating Jones is difficult.  I think you've hit on some very incongruent points that need examination.  You have pointed out some of the commonly stated "negative" points about Jones, while also recognizing some of his strengths.  Some of these actually go hand-in-hand, and when we `

 

Many people somehow fault him for throwing to wide open receivers.  To me, that is in no way a negative for a quarterback.  First, he hits them at a very high rate - which is extremely important.  And little thought seems to be given to whether Jones has had anything to do with them being so wide open.  You touched on it yourself, when mentioning his abilities to sell play action, use his eyes and body language to manipulate the defense, and his pocket presence and ability to move within the pocket.  These things are a big part of the reason the receivers are open.  They just are.  These are NFL qualities in a QB.

 

Another "negative" you mention is hitting contested receivers.  Hitting contested receivers is also a strength, not a weakness, that is vital for an NFL QB, IMO.  Knowing the strengths and tendencies of your receivers and being able to "throw them open" is huge in my mind.  Throwing that contested ball in such a way that your receiver has a chance to catch it, but the defender really doesn't is a huge plus that speaks to the accuracy, as well as the football IQ, of a QB.  I think the tendency to somehow sluff that off as being 100% due to the receiver's skills and 0% attributed to the QB is not a very good way to look at it.

 

And the very common notion that playing with other really good players is somehow a negative has never made sense to me.  First, it totally overlooks the fact that Jones is also playing against many players that will soon be playing on Sunday.  Additionally, to pretend that his teammates make him a better player without acknowledging the possibility that the reverse is also true flies in the face of reason, yet it is a notion that seems to be held by more than a few folks.  Just read this thread for a few pages.

 

He didn't lay an egg in any game this season.  Consistency, confidence, and leadership.  Three qualities I certainly want to see in my QB.  How about you?

 

I look around the NFL and don't see any other pear shaped QBs who are successful.  Big Ben is the closest but he used to be more svelte and mobile.

 

Jones would have to be a mold-breaker.  Seems pretty unlikely.

[CapsSkins]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

 

lol, its not that interesting to me.  I am in the camp that think Najee will be there at 19.  He's there and later in almost every mock -- not that it means anything in the scheme of things but I agree with the idea behind the point which is RBs tend to drop.

 

4 to 5 QBs can go before our pick.  3-4 CBs.  3-4 tackles.  those positions tend to go early.  I'd put money that Najee falls to 19.  

 

Now if Waddle is there at 19 that strikes me more interesting, that to me would be a slight surprise.   But if I can trade up for Pitts where I just give up a third, I'd do it in that context, too. 

 

I'm just gauging Willingness to Pay for a talent like Pitts because I think if there is a run on QBs, you could have some great prospects dropping into plausible trade-up territory. We've talked about trading up for a QB prospect at length this season, but there's been relatively little discussion on trading up for a skill player. 

[seantaylor=god]

5 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

 

Okay let's make this more interesting

 

Would you rather trade a 3rd to move up 5-6 spots to draft Pitts or stand pat at 19 if you were confident you could get Najee there? 

That’s a great question. I guess for me it would be seeing who else was being picked. If at pick 12, there are 6-7 more players I had high grades on available (including Pitts, Collins, Najee, Waddle, etc.) then I would stand pat. If the players I really liked were all going fast and there were only 1-2 left that I liked I would trade up to 13 and get Pitts.

[Commander_N_Chief]

11 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

 

Okay let's make this more interesting

 

Would you rather trade a 3rd to move up 5-6 spots to draft Pitts or stand pat at 19 if you were confident you could get Najee there? 

I haven't even had the ink dry on the card by the time it took me to trade up and turn the card in for Pitts.  It's never going to happen though, I'm not sure he even makes it out of the top 10(Miami *#18 as I don't think they'd use #3 on Pitts, Atlanta, Cincy...though they need to go OL to protect Burrow, Philly may depending on what happens with Ertz and Goedert and their salary cap, Carolina, or Denver need TEs.  You also then have to get through Dallas, NYG(I'm not sure they resign Engram), New England, and Arizona.  All teams that would benefit greatly from Pitts at their spot, though obviously all of these teams have other needs as well.

 

14 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Now if Waddle is there at 19 that strikes me more interesting, that to me would be a slight surprise.   But if I can trade up for Pitts where I just give up a third, I'd do it in that context, too. 

That would be an amazing situation to be in, but I almost think you have to go Waddle if he drops from the injury.  While I love Najee, and he would be an instant factor on this team...you just can't substitute his talent with anyone on the field opposite Terry.

 

No matter what though, in every scenario I absolutely avoid Mac Jones at 19.

[Skinsinparadise]

32 minutes ago, Number 44 said:

I appreciate your acknowledgment that evaluating Jones is difficult.  I think you've hit on some very incongruent points that need examination.  You have pointed out some of the commonly stated "negative" points about Jones, while also recognizing some of his strengths.  Some of these actually go hand-in-hand, and when we `analyze them, maybe some of the "negatives" aren't very negative at all.

 

Many people somehow fault him for throwing to wide open receivers.  To me, that is in no way a negative for a quarterback.  First, he hits them at a very high rate - which is extremely important.  And little thought seems to be given to whether Jones has had anything to do with them being so wide open.  You touched on it yourself, when mentioning his abilities to sell play action, use his eyes and body language to manipulate the defense, and his pocket presence and ability to move within the pocket.  These things are a big part of the reason the receivers are open.  They just are.  These are NFL qualities in a QB.

 

Another "negative" you mention is hitting contested receivers.  Hitting contested receivers is also a strength, not a weakness, that is vital for an NFL QB, IMO.  Knowing the strengths and tendencies of your receivers and being able to "throw them open" is huge in my mind.  Throwing that contested ball in such a way that your receiver has a chance to catch it, but the defender really doesn't is a huge plus that speaks to the accuracy, as well as the football IQ, of a QB.  I think the tendency to somehow sluff that off as being 100% due to the receiver's skills and 0% attributed to the QB is not a very good way to look at it.

 

And the very common notion that playing with other really good players is somehow a negative has never made sense to me.  First, it totally overlooks the fact that Jones is also playing against many players that will soon be playing on Sunday.  Additionally, to pretend that his teammates make him a better player without acknowledging the possibility that the reverse is also true flies in the face of reason, yet it is a notion that seems to be held by more than a few folks.  Just read this thread for a few pages.

 

He didn't lay an egg in any game this season.  Consistency, confidence, and leadership.  Three qualities I certainly want to see in my QB.  How about you?

 

Lol, I guess its Mac Jones day.      I am getting burned out talking about him so sorry while I appreciate your response I just don't have the energy to go tit for tat on the subject anymore today. 

 

For weeks running, I noticed every now and then I somewhat defend Mac but in doing so I express that I like him but not love him (and explain why) but then get challenged by a person for not sharing the same intensity of like that they do about Mac as a player.    I presume that person has been you?  I haven't really paid super attention to who that poster has been aside from recalling its not a regular on the thread.   But that post feels like deja vu. 😀  So I presume we might have done this debate before?  

 

In that case, I'll repeat the same thing I did before to you or whomever the other person was, I have put up as much and probably more pro Mac Jones stuff on this thread than anyone.  If you go through my posts today and in the past closely, you'd see I sold his attributes pretty hard.   As for what I perceive to be his weaknesses or unknown tough to dicipher variables about him -- sorry, it is just what I feel.  I spent a lot of time and energy on Mac and as i mentioned I've seen the dude play live, too.   So i am not easily swayed on him one way or another. 

 

Relatively speaking, I am one of the most pro Mac Jones guys on the board.  Heck even if I included the average national draft geek types in the mix, I am more pro Mac than most but simpy not to the extent you are.   And I'd guess about 5 other people on the board give or take are really smitten with Mac from what I recall.  I am not smitten with him but I mostly like him.  He's my favorite roll of the dice 2nd tier type QB.   As for the pros and cons of what and why, I devoted enough hours to Mac today so I don't feel like rehashing. 

 

I am one of the only people on this thread who wouldn't jump off a cliff if we took him at 19 albeit he'd be far from my top choice at that spot.    So there are plenty of better targets here to argue about Mac with -- i am not a mile away from your point of view albeit I disagree with some of the points you used to back your argument.  There are other people here who are a mile off your take from what i can tell. 

 

[Number 44]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Lol, I guess its Mac Jones day.      I am getting burned out talking about him so sorry while I appreciate your response I just don't have the energy to go tit for tat on the subject anymore today. 

 

For weeks running, I noticed every now and then I somewhat defend Mac but in doing so I express that I like him but not love him (and explain why) but then get challenged by a person for not sharing the same intensity of like that they do about Mac as a player.    I presume that person has been you?  I haven't really paid super attention to who that poster has been aside from recalling its not a regular on the thread.   But that post feels like deja vous. 😀  So I presume we might have done this debate before?  

 

In that case, I'll repeat the same thing I did before to you or whomever the other person was, I have put up as much and probably more pro Mac Jones stuff on this thread than anyone.  If you go through my posts today and in the past closely, you'd see I sold his attributes pretty hard.   As for what I perceive to be his weaknesses or unknown varaibles about him -- sorry, it is just what I feel.  I spent a lot of time and energy on Mac and as i mentioned I've seen the dude play live, too.   So i am not easily swayed on him one way or another. 

 

Relatively speaking, I am one of the most pro Mac Jones guys on the board.  Heck even if I included the average national draft geek type in the mix, I am more pro Mac than most but simpy not to the extent you are.   And I'd guess about 5 other people on the board give or take or really smitten with Mac from what I recall.  I am not smitten with him but I mostly like him.  He's my favorite roll of the dice 2nd tier type QB.   As for the pros and cons of what and why, I devoted enough hours to Mac today so I don't feel like rehashing. 

 

I am one of the only people on this thread who wouldn't jump off a cliff if we took him at 19.    So there are plenty of better targets here to argue about Mac with -- i am not a mile away from your point of view albeit I disagree with some of the points you used to back your argument.  There are other people here who are a mile off your take from what i can tell. 

 

If it seemed like I was attacking you, I wasn't.  I realize that you aren't close-mindedly against Jones, as some others appear to be.  I was trying to converse with you about what you acknowledge are the difficulties in evaluating Jones.  I apparently failed in making that clear.  I was simply hoping to point out that passing to both wide-open and closely contested receivers with success isn't just a matter of luck and playing with excellent teammates, but that the QB does, indeed, have a very important hand in it.  

[KDawg]

56 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

Would you rather have Pitts or Najee Harris if you think you can sign Allen Robinson in FA?

Harris and it’s not close.

[Skinsinparadise]

10 minutes ago, thelongestbreath said:

 

That would be an amazing situation to be in, but I almost think you have to go Waddle if he drops from the injury.  While I love Najee, and he would be an instant factor on this team...you just can't substitute his talent with anyone on the field opposite Terry.

 

No matter what though, in every scenario I absolutely avoid Mac Jones at 19.

 

I'd be ecstatic if it was Waddle.  Yeah I'd probably go with him over Harris, too.  Tough call but I think we could still get someone like Javonte Williams in the 2nd. 

[CapsSkins]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Harris and it’s not close.

 

I was waiting for you to chime in on this one! Seems like this isn't a unanimous one after all.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, Number 44 said:

If it seemed like I was attacking you, I wasn't.  I realize that you aren't close-mindedly against Jones, as some others appear to be.  I was trying to converse with you about what you acknowledge are the difficulties in evaluating Jones.  I apparently failed in making that clear.  I was simply hoping to point out that passing to both wide-open and closely contested receivers with success isn't just a matter of luck and playing with excellent teammates, but that the QB does, indeed, have a very important hand in it.  

 

OK, cool. 

 

The QB indeed has a hand in it.  However, its tough to gauge a QB's ability to throw into tight windows when they don't do it that much.  I posted a PFF study weeks back for example that showed Burrow's accuracy as for tight window throws was a lot better than Mac Jones.    Also when you throw contested throws, its not always easy to tell if its Devonta Smith for example beasting over an inferior corner and that's driving the play.  You aren't going to always have such lopsided match ups in the pros.

 

If I am drinking the Mac Jones Kool Aide as for him adjusting to the pros its this:

 

He's one of my favorite play action type QBs in this draft.  He seems really conscious of how to contort his body and use his eyes to manipulate defenders.   

[KDawg]

4 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

I was waiting for you to chime in on this one! Seems like this isn't a unanimous one after all.

 

I like Pitts. I’d never argue against Pitts. I don’t think Pitts is going to have the type of NFL success many do. I think Harris will.

 

Now, if we shift the focus and talk about which I’d rather pay come contract time? Probably Pitts. Najee is going to have miles and be really expensive. And we all know when these stud RBs get to their second contract they trend to downturn in performance. Not all of them, mind you. But the beatings they take put a lot of miles on the tires.

 

So in that vein I think Pitts may be a surer bet to be around for a long time. So I could be sold that someone like him is a better pick due to that. 
 

But no one can convince me that Harris isn’t a top 5 talent in this draft. If not top 3 (Sewell may be the only one I think is overall a better player than him. Maybe DeVanta)

[Skinsinparadise]

10 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Harris and it’s not close.

 

I know we disagree that he will still be there at 19. Where I think he's there and you don't.  But I can only imagine what you'd do if he's there and we skip him.    It would be like me yelling at my TV when we skipped Derwin James.

 

I like N. Harris a lot but no way i'd take him over Pitts.   To each their own. 😀

[Number 44]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

OK, cool. 

 

The QB indeed has a hand in it.  However, its tough to gauge a QB's ability to throw into tight windows when they don't do it that much.  I posted a PFF study weeks back for example that showed Burrow's accuracy as for tight window throws was a lot better than Mac Jones.    Also when you throw contested throws, its not always easy to tell if its Devonta Smith for example beasting over an inferior corner and that's driving the play.  You aren't going to always have such lopsided match ups in the pros.

 

If I am drinking the Mac Jones Kool Aide as for him adjusting to the pros its this:

 

He's one of my favorite play action type QBs in this draft.  He seems really conscious of how to contort his body and use his eyes to manipulate defenders.   

If I've ever given the impression that I think Jones is equal to Burrow and should be considered at pick 1.1, I certainly didn't mean to.  I'm looking at our pick at 1.19.  Frankly, I have a feeling he won't make it to us, as I think Denver and New England are definite possibilities for him.

[KDawg]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I know we disagree that he will still be there at 19. Where I think he's there and you don't.  But I can only imagine what you'd do if he's there and we skip him.    It would be like me yelling at my TV when we skipped Derwin James.

 

I like N. Harris a lot but no way i'd take him over Pitts.   To each their own. 😀

Eh. I understand the way the game works. So if they don’t draft Harris I’ll live... As long as we get a player I’m okay with it. I’d even be okay with Pitts there. But I’d definitely wonder about the possibilities.

 

Where I’d get frustrated is if we go into the season with no workhorse back. 

[Commander_N_Chief]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I'd be ecstatic if it was Waddle.  Yeah I'd probably go with him over Harris, too.  Tough call but I think we could still get someone like Javonte Williams in the 2nd. 

I have to take a moment and apologize even though nothing was said.  When I saw I had a notification from my post, I completely figured you would be responding to how I absolutely have zero interest in Mac Jones at 19 and was coming to say I don't hate Mac Jones.  If he slid to the second round I'd even consider it, I just don't think the talent warrants #19 overall.  I like Williams but if I could have Waddle and then maybe a Sermon in the 4th, I'd look at that as my ideal draft situation.  Najee is great but to me, and I'd be overly excited if that's the route WFT goes in this year, but to me bringing in someone to be your bell cow who is actually an incredibly gifted pass catcher as well as solid pass protector you eliminate the use for Gibson(unless you split him out wide/slot), McKissic, and Barber.  I'm not sold on a single pass catcher on our team sans Terry.  I'd draft Waddle, Newsome, Eichenberg, Surratt/Browning, Sermon with my first 5 picks(given that they're all still there).

 

I'm really excited to see how Justyn Ross progresses, if he'll even be able to play again.  I read he recently got some good news but still hasn't been cleared for any kind of contact?  If he's good to go, but needs some additional time to heal, I'm still taking him later in the draft.

[Darth Tater]

36 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Pitts hands down.

There are only 2 players I would trade up to get and neither will be available at 12-13.

[KDawg]

Honestly I’d have the most pause at 19 if the following were there: Najee, Waddle, Smith, Collins.

 

I don’t think a single one of them is there at that point. 
 

But I’d be real tempted by Smith, Waddle, Collins in that order...