FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[Thinking Skins]

44 minutes ago, Xameil said:

Shanny's fascination with Beck was definitely an argument against legalized pot...

In Shanny's defense, Beck was hella impressive in all the off the field stuff. I'm sure in practice he was making the right reads and calling Mike correctly, doing his progressions and all that. Wasn't he a second round pick? The problems came when the lights came on. He was just a deer in headlights. Its hard to predict that. 

[Xameil]

2 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

In Shanny's defense, Beck was hella impressive in all the off the field stuff. I'm sure in practice he was making the right reads and calling Mike correctly, doing his progressions and all that. Wasn't he a second round pick? The problems came when the lights came on. He was just a deer in headlights. Its hard to predict that. 

Ok...first...it was a joke ;).

 

Second...I think we've seen that scenario soooo many times and coaches are always chastised for it...most of them on our team have been WRs and 1 named Perine...

 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, skinny21 said:

I’ve been thinking about this aspect of Haskins.  On one hand, we’ve heard or seen the negatives - preparation, immaturity, involvement, etc. - on the other hand, how much support has he been given?  How much of the preparation/work ethic angle was a result of him feeling unwanted?  How much of it was because of a lack of experience or understanding of how to be a pro?   None of that absolves him - plenty of guys come into the league and work their butts off and go the extra mile from day 1 - but hearing how some of these things have changed mitigates my concerns to some extent.  
 

 

I got some concerns on the intangibles front, heard more yesterday that didn't make me feel warm and fuzzy.  So am hoping the dude plays well enough that the side narratives becomes meaningless.  I know some think any negativity is about some media conspiracy.  I'd blow it off myself but its coming from too many different fronts to just throw it all out the window.   As for his talent, I am liking his progress but not blown away by it either.  I've watched every game of both Haskins and Jones and they both surprised me on some fronts in a good way and also confirmed some fears on other fronts.  Obviously, I am rooting for Jones to fail since we didn't draft him. 😀   I wouldn't put money on Vegas on either dude right now as franchise QBs or for that matter busts.    I am hardcore undecided.  But like all of us here, I need him to succeed big time.  I think the team can get good fast if he's the goods and conversely I think we will be same old same old for years if he's a bust or just a guy. 

 

 

9 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

In Shanny's defense, Beck was hella impressive in all the off the field stuff. I'm sure in practice he was making the right reads and calling Mike correctly, doing his progressions and all that. Wasn't he a second round pick? The problems came when the lights came on. He was just a deer in headlights. Its hard to predict that. 

 

Also, when he was asked about it after he left, he joked and said look he wanted to give a jolt of confidence to the dude.  The idea that Beck deep down had confidence issues on the field was clear to see.  It's not uncommon for a HC to blow smoke up the butys of their players especially the dudes who aren't rock star players. 

[HOF44]

It's like Gibbs used to say.  Win and it all goes away.  Lose and there will be endless talk.  Its' all meaningless except the results.  

[HTTRDynasty]

Not a great ranking, but at least he ranks better than Jones:

 

 

23. DWAYNE HASKINS, WASHINGTON REDSKINS

After a slow start, Haskins has shown signs of life in recent weeks, particularly against the Panthers, though his stat line has not shown it. Haskins’ best throws fell incomplete last Sunday, including a “go” ball to rookie wideout Terry McLaurin and a well-placed end zone route over Luke Kuechly. Haskins has missed a high percentage of throws (fourth-highest percentage of negatives), but he’s avoided turnover-worthy plays at the third-best rate in the league, so that’s an encouraging sign for a rookie.  

 

27. DANIEL JONES, NEW YORK GIANTS

After an encouraging start to his career, Jones has settled in as one of the most volatile quarterbacks in the league. He ranks 19th in big-time throw percentage at 3.6%, and he’s had a number of beauties, but his No. 3 ranking in turnover-worthy play percentage (5.5%) looms large. He’s made ill-advised decisions, but it’s his pocket presence and subsequent fumbles that have been the biggest issue. Overall, there is some optimism that he can move the chains and cut down on the turnovers with a better group of playmakers, but like Winston, it’s an important part of his development if he’s going to be the future in New York. 

[Llevron]

33 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I got some concerns on the intangibles front, heard more yesterday that didn't make me feel warm and fuzzy. 

 

Tell us 😈

[TradeTheBeal!]

35 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

Tell us 😈

 

No

[Skinsinparadise]

4 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

 

No

 

40 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

Tell us 😈

 

As for Haskins, I am just trying to digest him without a filter -- positive, negative, everything.   I've shared plenty of the good stuff, articles, gossip.  I've shared less of the bad stuff so to speak.  But man when I do share the stuff that isn't rainbows and sunshine, I get hammered sometimes by a few and it can lead to wild tangents about media conspiracies, etc.  I am hardcore neutral on Haskins.  That's not me straddling the fence.  I genuinely don't know.  And I am far from shy of landing on a position on a QB once I make up my mind.  I am just far from making up my mind, yet.

 

So since I am not in the mood to go on that ride of being slammed for sharing stuff.  I'll PM you with it.  It's nothing wild and crazy but it raises a concern I got in the mix of the soup.  And again I got both positives and negatives in that soup.  I am not really leaning hard in one way.  

 

 

 

 

 

[PartyPosse]

this sounds like one of those “You’re NOT going to believe your ears what Haskins did on Thanksgiving!” Clickbait articles.

[RandyHolt]

Its rarely a good thing to hear a QB's best throws were incomplete....

[TradeTheBeal!]

The most neutral parties are surely the ones that absolutely can’t stop telling you how neutral they are.

 

🤔

[Tay]

20 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

As for Haskins, I am just trying to digest him without a filter -- positive, negative, everything.   I've shared plenty of the good stuff, articles, gossip.  I've shared less of the bad stuff so to speak.  But man when I do share the stuff that isn't rainbows and sunshine, I get hammered sometimes by a few and it can lead to wild tangents about media conspiracies, etc.  I am hardcore neutral on Haskins.  That's not me straddling the fence.  I genuinely don't know.  And I am far from shy of landing on a position on a QB once I make up my mind.  I am just far from making up my mind, yet.

 

So since I am not in the mood to go on that ride of being slammed for sharing stuff.  I'll PM you with it.  It's nothing wild and crazy but it raises a concern I got in the mix of the soup.  And again I got both positives and negatives in that soup.  I am not really leaning hard in one way.  

 

 

 

 

 

 Can you copy and paste the PM to my inbox?

 

Thank you

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

this sounds like one of those “You’re NOT going to believe your ears what Haskins did on Thanksgiving!” Clickbait articles.

 

Nope.  But this post brings the point home for me.  I know I'll get slammed for sharing it so I won't.  

11 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

The most neutral parties are surely the ones that absolutely can’t stop telling you how neutral they are.

 

🤔

 

You more than most should know I am far from shy about sharing a strong opinion on a QB and I am far from shy about going to bat with anyone who disagrees once I do.  

 

So yeah once i truly land on a position on Haskins you won't find me straddling the fence.  I was as hardcore with a slant as it gets on RG3 and Kirk once I made up my mind. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Back to pure sunshine posts.  😁

 

 

 

 

 

[Warhead36]

But you're not gonna get 100% clean pockets every snap in today's NFL where seemingly everyone's trying to load up on pass rushers. Gotta be able to move within the pocket elude the rush and make throws under pressure.

[Est.1974]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 I am hardcore neutral on Haskins. 

 

That's a great line  

 

I'm of a similar mindset. I just have no real idea what path his career is going to take. There's the little tasters that he has the glimpses of being real good, offset by these peripheral negatives that are always too close for comfort. Not sure if polarising is the correct word, but he's a tough one to read.

[Skinsinparadise]

37 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

 

That's a great line  

 

I'm of a similar mindset. I just have no real idea what path his career is going to take. There's the little tasters that he has the glimpses of being real good, offset by these peripheral negatives that are always too close for comfort. Not sure if polarising is the correct word, but he's a tough one to read.

 

Yeah I agree.  For me there are things that I have liked which I have spelled out in detail.  And things I don't.  I've offended at times people on both sides of the debate in doing so, so I think if anything I am proving the point that if you stand in the middle of the road you get run over by cars on both sides of the street.  But heck it is what it is.  I don't really have an opinion on him where I am comfortable to say anything definitive. 

 

I feel the same way watching Daniel Jones and from what I saw in the one start from Drew Lock.  Kyler I am most sold on thus far.  And he was the dude i was most sold on too before the draft.  I didn't like Jones pre-draft.  He's played better than I expected but there is plenty I don't like about what I see either.  So I wouldn't go to Vegas to bet on him either one way or another.

 

If some think I actually have landed on an opinion and I am shy from sharing it, it would be somewhat hilarious considering my posting history.   I am one of the rare people here who loved RG3 and defended him a lot and Kirk afterward too and participated in some of the most heated debates on the board with a heavy slant on both subjects.   I'll take on anybody on any thought, on any opinion, anytime.    I am just not ready to do it on Haskins, yet.    I bought into RG3 quickly and I ended up wrong.  It was a slower burn with Kirk but eventually I bought in.   Haskins is tracking to me like Kirk if I end up buying in -- it might take more time. 

 

I pretty much have had every young QB's back here -- not really because I bought into their future from the jump but just because I think they deserved a decent sample size before deciding.  Maybe i am more cynical now than in the past because in the past I really wanted to believe so I tried to see the glass as always half full early on.  With Haskins I am open to everything as far as digesting things -- positive info, negative info, everything.     And on that front, it's just very mixed for me right now.   

 

So I need to see more of the movie.  

 

 

 

[skinny21]

@Skinsinparadise I don’t blame you not sharing the negative stuff.  You’ve made clear (as you always do) your stance on Haskins, but some will always assume an agenda.  
 

To be clear about my earlier post, I’m absolutely concerned about his off the field stuff and his ability to handle criticism.  He certainly acts like he’s got a thin skin (and this ain’t the market, organization or fan base for thin skin), and the preparation/work ethic stuff is a big red flag.  Now some of the stuff, I take with a grain of salt and some of it could come down to maturity and getting used to NFL life, but I still have my concerns.  
 

My post was essentially (meant to be) about setting that stuff aside and looking at 1) what he’s shown, 2) where he needs to grow, 3) how fixable his flaws are.  My take is that he’s shown some good things (much of it not something that shows up in the box score), has improved some in certain areas, has shown a desire to improve, and his flaws seem fixable.  All of that gives me hope he can develop into a franchise qb.  No idea if he will, and it’s important to note that the... personality issues I guess... could hinder, if not outright stymy that development.  

[skinfan2k]

I have no faith in callahan.  He is trying to play this team like gibbs 2.0.     Haskins will not develop this way.  

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, skinny21 said:

@Skinsinparadise I don’t blame you not sharing the negative stuff.  You’ve made clear (as you always do) your stance on Haskins, but some will always assume an agenda.  
 

To be clear about my earlier post, I’m absolutely concerned about his off the field stuff and his ability to handle criticism.  He certainly acts like he’s got a thin skin (and this ain’t the market, organization or fan base for thin skin), and the preparation/work ethic stuff is a big red flag.  Now some of the stuff, I take with a grain of salt and some of it could come down to maturity and getting used to NFL life, but I still have my concerns.  
 

My post was essentially (meant to be) about setting that stuff aside and looking at 1) what he’s shown, 2) where he needs to grow, 3) how fixable his flaws are.  My take is that he’s shown some good things (much of it not something that shows up in the box score), has improved some in certain areas, has shown a desire to improve, and his flaws seem fixable.  All of that gives me hope he can develop into a franchise qb.  No idea if he will, and it’s important to note that the... personality issues I guess... could hinder, if not outright stymy that development.  

 

The cliff notes version of Haskins for the moment for me and why i waffle.  Also, I am coming off a big whiny (which I try not to do) about it so I apologize to everyone here for that. 😀  If someone wants to argue any of this stuff, its cool.  I am sensitive on the point that I have some secret position considering my posting history alludes to a very different style than that.  😀 

 

Haskins Positive (for me)

 

A. I tend to have a soft spot for any dude who is nice to my kids.  I've seen Haskins interact with them on 4 different occasions -- super nice guy.  And beat guys have also said their sources tell him that people in that building think he's a super nice guy.

 

B.  I love the mobility in the pocket and he's better than I thought he would be on the move as a runner.  

 

C.   Rifle arm.  

 

D.  Brave in the pocket.

 

E.  I like how he uses his eyes to manipulate the safety and MLB, etc (per some of the clips I posted)

 

F.  I actually like his athletic arrogance, bravado.

 

Haskins Negative (for me)

 

A.  Too many reports from way too many places for me to believe all the questions about work ethic, practice habits are BS.    And via the same people, it's improved but those issues haven't all gone away.  If people want to discard it all as nonsense.  That's cool.   But when 8 people say the same thing, I at least take note of it.  So to each their own on that front.   And no its not because i just want to believe it.  That would be weird.  I don't want to think negative things about any player just for kicks.  

 

B.  Some of his accuracy issues I saw in camp I still see now -- under throwing out routes, over throwing intermediate routes in between the numbers.

 

C.  Playing off of B I don't think he's good at hitting receivers in stride to set up YAC.  Sometimes yes but too often no.

 

D.  I don't love his ability to throw on the move -- he doesn't always align his feet with his shoulders and can be wild

 

E.  There is certainly some weird thing going on at the building relating to Haskins.  He's got his detractors there in the mix.  That's clear as heck.   And I'd feel better if that would stop.  Granted maybe we got some people there with evolving opinions and are open to change with each game. 

 

 

I'd add this is the same thing I said about Haskins in the draft thread before the draft.  Of all the Qbs i studied Haskins is the one who shows the most exceptions to what I perceived to be their weaknesses.  In other words, if he's typically not good at something, out of nowhere he can do that thing really well for a play or two or even a game.  And I don't know what to make of it, I still don't.  For example in 4 practices I watched Haskins was wild on intermediate out routes but then in one practice he looked like Dan Marino on them. 

 

The positive side of me will say that it means that Haskins can master anything, just give him time.   The negative nelly in me would cite Arians' book on QBs and suggest that consistency is the key for QBs.  He would say they great ones would have consistent mechanics where you don't see these ups and downs that often.

 

[Thinking Skins]

This is a nice writeup on Haskins and his production so far: 

 

https://www.lmtonline.com/news/article/Analysis-One-metric-says-Redskins-QB-Dwayne-14881854.php

 

Haskins has been Pro Football Focus's 11th-highest-rated passer since he took over as Washington's full-time starting quarterback in Week 9. That puts him ahead of notable names such as Dak Prescott (12th), Tom Brady (14th) and MVP candidate Aaron Rodgers (24th) in that span. And before you dismiss this as a benchmark only nerds will care about, bear in mind that Haskins has taken notice of these accomplishments, retweeting kudos from Pro Football Focus for his Week 13 performance.

ESPN's Total Quarterback Rating puts a much different spin on Haskins' performance this season. His QBR (14.2) as of Tuesday implies his performance would earn a team just two wins over a 16-game season. He doesn't have enough passing attempts to qualify for ESPN's leader board, but if he did, he would rank well behind Gardner Minshew II (43.3), Mitchell Trubisky (38.8) and Mason Rudolph, whose 32.9 QBR is the worst in the NFL among qualified quarterbacks.

[Thinking Skins]

One thing about the article above is that it points out the sacks that Haskins is taking and compares them to Keenum who took 12 sacks in 8 games, whereas Haskins has taken 22 in just 6 games. Which defenses are better, particularly rushing the pass? I haven't done that analysis. And I've also read somewhere (need to look it up) that Haskins has 0 sacks in the last 2 minutes. Interesting and I wonder if he can improve on this. 

 

[HTTRDynasty]

It boggles my mind that ESPN's QBR is still being used by some as a legitimate stat.

[tmandoug1]

I saw something that did concern me during the game with the Panthers. Just a quick shot of DHack on the bench with a guy with a surface pro trying to show and talk to him and DHack was looking down while picking his fingernails instead of being focused on the discussion or at least holding his own tablet. Just something  I noticed......

[Thinking Skins]

I looked up these stats in nextgenstats https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing/2019/#average-time-to-throw and see that Haskins is right behind Kirk Cousins in terms of time to throw. Cousins is only sacked at a 5.8% rate, whereas Haskins is sacked at a 14.2% rate. 

 

Interesting. 

 

Minshew has a scak % of 6.4, 
Driskel has a 9.5% 
Brissett hat a 5.5

So there seems to be little correlation between this stat and number of times a QB gets sacked. I think there is something there though because some of his best throws came from escaping pressure.