!!!!0mgz!!!! Trent Williams finally showed up

[sempre_victrix]

34 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 The world is full of men with healthcare plans that refuse to see a doctor until they can't stand the pain any longer or they die.  That's also not smart, but that's the way it is. 

 

As I've said, I'm that way.   Less so as I age, but still only go when I think it's serious. 

 

You can blame the team physicians for missing this, but, don't blame the team for you not getting a second opinion.

30 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

That's the read I get from it, too, BFS. But I like to give the benefit of the doubt. I don't know what's going through anyone's mind, so assuming things is okay for forming somewhat educated opinions, but I can't try to talk in absolutes about that stuff without them coming out and saying exactly what they are thinking.

 

Everyone thought this was a cyst until it was removed.

 

He, just like everyone else, let it go for 6 years.

 

27 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I've said from the outset if Trent wants a raise or extension, I am against that.  If he wants the same status quo money but wants it to be guaranteed, I support that.  And Trent flat out said that's exactly what he wants and said he's not asking for a dime more than what he is already slated to be paid.  I got no problem with that.  And I understand his angle on it especially in the context of the medical scare. 

 

 

Then say that is the reason for the holdout.  Don't get all dramatic and blame everyone when all you want is your money guaranteed.  He is tarring a lot of people in the hopes of getting his contract guaranteed.

 

All this being said, its too damn bad that Allen didn't trade him in August for a some picks, but if he truly can't wear a helmet, then how could he have played for any team?

 

 

[JSSkinz]

I can see both sides of the story but I'm on team Trent on this one.  The team should stop being petty, guarantee the last 2 years and make amends with a guy who has been loyal to the franchise when most have no reason to be.

 

The team trying to prove they are right with this special investigation is embarrassing, they could have used the special investigation a year or two ago to find out why they have so many injuries and problems with surgeries.

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, sempre_victrix said:

As I've said, I'm that way.   Less so as I age, but still only go when I think it's serious. 

 

You can blame the team physicians for missing this, but, don't blame the team for you not getting a second opinion.

I'm not even sure it's up to the team's physicians to be able to properly identify this.  I'm just saying I can see why he'd trust them, rightly or wrongly.  If he's looking to blame them so bad, then why wouldn't he want any of them to lose their job?  Dude sounds like he was really shaken up by the news and what he had to do to get rid of it, and that Bruce made it about $ and setting precedent vs. how he was doing, and for that he's major salty.  Could be wrong, but it's the only thing that makes sense.

[Skinsinparadise]

7 minutes ago, sempre_victrix said:

 

Then say that is the reason for the holdout.  Don't get all dramatic and blame everyone when all you want is your money guaranteed.  He is tarring a lot of people in the hopes of getting his contract guaranteed.

 

All this being said, its too damn bad that Allen didn't trade him in August for a some picks, but if he truly can't wear a helmet, then how could he have played for any team?

 

 

 

It's clearly not how he feels so why should he say that?  He didn't say he is cool with how everything rolled but the scare just makes him want his money guaranteed now.

 

I had some concerns that money was the operative thing myself but when he said he didn't want a dime more than his contract already paid him -- I let that angle go from my end.  I said from the jump I'd have an issue if this was about a raise or an extension.  But it's not.

 

Just about everyone over the years who have talked about Trent have said he's a stand up guy.  I can see how people can maybe question Trent's take here but I can't see how we can come down hard on him -- we don't have all the facts.  At the very least, I think its clear that Trent has no ill motives about anything and he believes in everything he's saying.

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

 

It's clearly not how he feels so why should he say that?  He didn't say he is cool with how everything rolled but the scare just makes him want his money guaranteed now.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I read that he had talked to the team about guaranteeing his contract before he ever even found out the seriousness of the growth.  That Bruce was dug in about not doing it because he didn't want to set precedent.  Trent even said that he could understand that part of it.

 

It sounds like the scare part of the health issue happened after that and caused him to reassess.  And based on how he was rather clear that his issue is with Bruce, I'd venture a guess - Bruce did Bruce stuff, like being a douche about the whole ordeal in some form or fashion, so he's done with him.

[sempre_victrix]

10 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I'm not even sure it's up to the team's physicians to be able to properly identify this.  I'm just saying I can see why he'd trust them, rightly or wrongly.  If he's looking to blame them so bad, then why wouldn't he want any of them to lose their job?  Dude sounds like he was really shaken up by the news and what he had to do to get rid of it, and that Bruce made it about $ and setting precedent vs. how he was doing, and for that he's major salty.  Could be wrong, but it's the only thing that makes sense.

 

So, as the team president, a player with a fairly large contract comes to you and says "I have/had cancer, I want the rest of my contract guaranteed".  Is your first response "Sure, we'd love to be on the hook for $26M, even if you can't play"?

 

Obviously, I'm sure it didn't go down like that, but you get the gist.  There's a human side to this and there's a business side to this.

 

Bruce is still an asshole.

 

Neither side is going to come out a winner in this, that is the only thing I'm certain of, short of TW suing someone for a lot of money and winning.

[megared]

14 minutes ago, sempre_victrix said:

You can blame the team physicians for missing this, but, don't blame the team for you not getting a second opinion.

 

The NFL isn't set up like a normal workplace.  He couldn't go to an outside specialist, without the team's approval without the chance of being cut. 

 

Even the review the Redskins called, are they doing it because they really want to know, or to save face?  I mean they've known more about this than the general public for a long time...why now?  It's in response to Trent talking to the media.  So confounding why they didn't trade him, to avoid this scenario.

[KDawg]

4 minutes ago, sempre_victrix said:

 

So, as the team president, a player with a fairly large contract comes to you and says "I have/had cancer, I want the rest of my contract guaranteed".  Is your first response "Sure, we'd love to be on the hook for $26M, even if you can't play"?

 

 

Probably not. But then I would ask the question... "If we don't guarantee it, is there something we can do to make this work?"

 

And when he says no, you trade him. Then. Not a year later. Amiable split.

[Bonez3]

So, I always snarked when athletes and talking heads would criticize those fans that outwardly booed athletes. A common remark would be 'hey, we don't walk into your office and boo you at your work place'. Well, TW didn't go to the doctors office, he went on nationally t.v. and booed the doctor.

 

Many here held back until it was official regarding the reason for the holdout. I personally stated I lost respect for TW if it was regarding medical issues. That is private and should be handled so. TW has the right to e upset if truly mismanaged (which, only one side here is being given a voice). But, this is not something that should be taken public. 

 

I wish they had traded him. Love the player but this decision and tactic lost me. Sorry, just not necessary.

[sempre_victrix]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

 

Probably not. But then I would ask the question... "If we don't guarantee it, is there something we can do to make this work?"

 

And when he says no, you trade him. Then. Not a year later. Amiable split.

 

That's how adults would handle it.  

[veteranskinsfan]

3 minutes ago, megared said:

 

The NFL isn't set up like a normal workplace.  He couldn't go to an outside specialist, without the team's approval without the chance of being cut. 

 

Even the review the Redskins called, are they doing it because they really want to know, or to save face?  I mean they've known more about this than the general public for a long time...why now?  It's in response to Trent talking to the media.  So confounding why they didn't trade him, to avoid this scenario.

On the radio this morning JP Finlay says in the players collective bargaining agreement players have access to getting a second opinion on any medical issue.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

11 minutes ago, sempre_victrix said:

So, as the team president, a player with a fairly large contract comes to you and says "I have/had cancer, I want the rest of my contract guaranteed".  Is your first response "Sure, we'd love to be on the hook for $26M, even if you can't play"?

 

Obviously, I'm sure it didn't go down like that, but you get the gist.  There's a human side to this and there's a business side to this.

 

Bruce is still an asshole.

 

Neither side is going to come out a winner in this, that is the only thing I'm certain of, short of TW suing someone for a lot of money and winning.

Neither you or I have any idea what transpired between parties. 

 

I'm merely going off of Trent's actions and what he said and taking into account both Bruce's reputation and history.  You are correct in that there are two sides to this, but it sure seems Bruce's massive failure on the human side leads to his mass failures on the business side.

[megared]

2 minutes ago, veteranskinsfan said:

On the radio this morning JP Finlay says in the players collective bargaining agreement players have access to getting a second opinion on any medical issue.

 

Are we saying it works in practice?  A Jets player just got cut for having a shoulder surgery the team didn't authorize.  What good does going do, if the team still dictates treatment through their medical staff by proxy?

 

Stuff like this is going to pop up around the league until they make medical staffs completely independent of ownership.   

[Bonez3]

4 minutes ago, megared said:

 

Are we saying it works in practice?  A Jets player just got cut for having a shoulder surgery the team didn't authorize.  What good does going do, if the team still dictates treatment through their medical staff by proxy?

 

Stuff like this is going to pop up around the league until they make medical staffs completely independent of ownership.   

I don't agree with TW's actions. But, this is absolutely correct.

 

All medical care should be independent, with no connection to ownership. Obviously, the team has the right to medical records regarding physicals and medical conditions.

[Commander Adama]

I am glad Trent is okay now. First, I really dislike how this was handled by Bruce Allen. Please fire him. This is the first time I have ever said anything negative regarding him, but he is the common theme with issues in the organization. Second, the CBA needs to be changed so players can get a second opinion. If a player is worried about something then it is their health and should be able to get an outside second opinion. Third, while I understand Trent has had a scare and has been nothing but a team player, the holdout and what he is doing now is immature. They need to discuss what needs to happen going forward and come to an agreement that benefits everyone, except for Bruce, though I honestly believe if Dan fired Bruce today, they would be able to have that conversation with Trent.

[SkinsGuy]

2 minutes ago, Blue Collar Skins said:

Second, the CBA needs to be changed so players can get a second opinion. If a player is worried about something then it is their health and should be able to get an outside second opinion

 

The players can get a second opinion on medical issues.

 

Whether they have to clear it with the team first, I don't know.

[Commander Adama]

1 minute ago, SkinsGuy said:

 

The players can get a second opinion on medical issues.

 

Whether they have to clear it with the team first, I don't know.

 

I thought that's not what I read

[Gerald362]

11 minutes ago, megared said:

 

Are we saying it works in practice?  A Jets player just got cut for having a shoulder surgery the team didn't authorize.  What good does going do, if the team still dictates treatment through their medical staff by proxy?

 

Stuff like this is going to pop up around the league until they make medical staffs completely independent of ownership.   

A second opinion is one thing. If you immediately jump from second opinion to surgery without discussion with the folks paying, there is a great chance that they won't pay. In the case of player and team, there should be the report generated and discussed, not just the second doctor immediately going to surgery.

[RandyHolt]

Way to go Trent!!!

 

Saying he likes Dan, focusing his ire on Bruce, can only help us with "our problem"

 

If it costs us Trent to ditch Bruce, that's a price we are willing to pay.

 

At least until we learn of the replacement for Bruce, and his possible role as a macromeddler enabler.

 

I had speculated early on that he merely wanted reparations, in part for restructuring his contract in 2015 so Bruce could escape cap issues, all tied to his medical situation... AKA just convert his contract to guaranteed money.  Which is all the rage now after Kirk's shanahanigans.

 

It would fool no one to hear Bruce is getting a big front office promotion and moving away from day to day football operations, so that he can focus on the stadium deal in addition to all his new duties.  But Dan may be a fool enough to think he can fool everyone.

 

Do it, dumbass.  Dan has to realize Trent can help us win games more than Bruce can. It really is that simple.

[Skinsinparadise]

37 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I read that he had talked to the team about guaranteeing his contract before he ever even found out the seriousness of the growth.  That Bruce was dug in about not doing it because he didn't want to set precedent.  Trent even said that he could understand that part of it.

 

It sounds like the scare part of the health issue happened after that and caused him to reassess.  And based on how he was rather clear that his issue is with Bruce, I'd venture a guess - Bruce did Bruce stuff, like being a douche about the whole ordeal in some form or fashion, so he's done with him.

 

It's clear as a bell that he didn't like Bruce and the way he's handled this.   And obviously now it's personal.    Bruce was front and center as the villain behind the Kirk contract as to Kirk's side of the equation, too. Ditto with Scot at the end.  And no i don't think he's just the bad cop because he's part of the negotiation.  Eric Schaffer is typically the lead negotiator and he seems to be liked.  Based on the Standig article on this and the ones about the agents, it paints Bruce as a dude who comes off like a slick car salesman who can come off phony and as someone you can't trust. 

 

Ironically Sheehan as I type this said on air he thinks there would be Redskin fans who would take even Vinny back to get rid of Bruce.  At the very least, Bruce has surpassed Vinny as a national punch line.  A caller just said what i've said recently -- the thing with Vinny is he was a buffoon but he wasn't unlikeable but Bruce is seen as malicious and paints the organization in a worse way on that front. 

[megared]

5 minutes ago, Gerald362 said:

A second opinion is one thing. If you immediately jump from second opinion to surgery without discussion with the folks paying, there is a great chance that they won't pay. In the case of player and team, there should be the report generated and discussed, not just the second doctor immediately going to surgery.

 

He got fined/released for going and seeking a second opinion, and then having the surgery.  The Jets felt it was a pre-existing injury...and because of that, they expected him to have to wait until the offseason to address it.  And practice, and play in the meantime.  

 

The cost of a 2nd opinion is a drop in the bucket to an NFL team.  Why do you think they're so opposed to it?  I mean this is the same league where players used to not have access to their own medical records...

[justice98]

It would not shock me in the least if they actually did recommend a second opinion prior to the 6 years passing and he just didnt do it.  But them continuing to say they didnt think it's anything trumped the second opinion advice.  Almost like they told him once, but didnt emphasize it as an urgent concern, so he didnt bother.  

[SkinsGuy]

3 minutes ago, Blue Collar Skins said:

 

I thought that's not what I read

 

I think players can get second opinions on injuries.

 

Here is an article from September about Drew Brees getting a second opinion on his thumb injury:

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/saintswire.usatoday.com/2019/09/16/sean-payton-drew-brees-second-opinion-thumb-injury-news/amp/

[megared]

2 minutes ago, SkinsGuy said:

 

I think players can get second opinions on injuries.

 

Here is an article from September about Drew Brees getting a second opinion on his thumb injury:

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/saintswire.usatoday.com/2019/09/16/sean-payton-drew-brees-second-opinion-thumb-injury-news/amp/

 

C'mon man...Brees isn't representative of the average care or attention an NFL player would get.  He isn't even representative of the average care or attention an NFL superstar would get.  He's a diety to New Orleans.  At this point, you probably had people offering their own thumbs to get him on the field.  

[Skinsinparadise]

7 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Way to go Trent!!!

 

Saying he likes Dan, focusing his ire on Bruce, can only help us with "our problem"

 

If it costs us Trent to ditch Bruce, that's a price we are willing to pay.

 

 

Sheehan asked Finlay if he thinks this would hurt Bruce's status with Dan.  Finlay speculated that if anyone could affect Dan on this it would be Trent.

 

7 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

 

 

It would fool no one to hear Bruce is getting a big front office promotion and moving away from day to day football operations, so that he can focus on the stadium deal in addition to all his new duties.  But Dan may be a fool enough to think he can fool everyone.

 

Yeah that's my main fear.  They'd make some BS cosmetic move that has no teeth.  As long as Bruce is the dude that Dan pals around with every night and has drinks with -- his finger prints will likely remain to be big on the organization.

 

Dan is a train wreck on his own.  But my one small hope is that he finds a more competent and classy drinking buddy and it rubs off on him a little.