The Impeachment Thread

[Llevron]

3 minutes ago, @SkinsGoldPants said:

 

That's how the mob works. You have the receipts on your allies so they don't flip on you without hurting themselves.

 

I mean Rudy said exactly this when he was asked if Trump would turn on him lol. So thats just how they get down. 

[NoCalMike]

The only explanation that I can come up with for the GOP bending the knee for Trump is that they have seen the forecast in America politically and they don't see a future for the  modern GOP as it is/was, so their two choices were to modernize (especially on social issues) OR embrace someone that is such a cretin that it would bring out every other cretin from under their rocks who might not otherwise vote for the "RINOS" so they think the new Trump version of the party will outlast the viability of the normal GOP, and/or at least buy them time to come up with a longer term strategy. 

 

The numbers are never going to be on the GOP's side, the modern GOP I mean, nor on Trump-GOP's side, however when it comes to actual voters, someone like Trump is drawing people for better or worse, and the Dems probably always seem to be drawing the "I agree with you, but I simply just don't vote ever" crowd.

[tshile]

12 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

The only explanation that I can come up with for the GOP bending the knee for Trump is that they have seen the forecast in America politically and they don't see a future for the  modern GOP as it is/was, so their two choices were to modernize (especially on social issues) OR embrace someone that is such a cretin that it would bring out every other cretin from under their rocks who might not otherwise vote for the "RINOS" so they think the new Trump version of the party will outlast the viability of the normal GOP, and/or at least buy them time to come up with a longer term strategy. 

 

I don't think the GOP ever bought into the "death of the party" the dems have been on about for years now.

 

Yes the demographics are changing but they quite clearly still had staying power and could have done minor adjustments.  And the changing demographics is a way overblown issue anyways given the electoral college, where those demographic changes are, and the fact that it requires subscribing to the idea that a political party (the republicans specifically in this context) is incapable of changing.

 

(I'm speaking from before this whole Trump thing happened... now is a different story and I have trouble feeling comfortable about having my bearings straight on the current climate)

 

Maybe you're right, it just doesn't fit what I see GOP leadership thinking over the years. This "white people are going away so the republican party is dying" stuff is cute, and has a bit of truth and reality to it, but to me always seemed way overblown.

 

(much like the few times in my adult life I've seen the same declarations made of the dems, and none of them ever came true either...)

 

[@DCGoldPants]

20 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

The only explanation that I can come up with for the GOP bending the knee for Trump is that they have seen the forecast in America politically and they don't see a future for the  modern GOP as it is/was, so their two choices were to modernize (especially on social issues) OR embrace someone that is such a cretin that it would bring out every other cretin from under their rocks who might not otherwise vote for the "RINOS" so they think the new Trump version of the party will outlast the viability of the normal GOP, and/or at least buy them time to come up with a longer term strategy. 

 

The numbers are never going to be on the GOP's side, the modern GOP I mean, nor on Trump-GOP's side, however when it comes to actual voters, someone like Trump is drawing people for better or worse, and the Dems probably always seem to be drawing the "I agree with you, but I simply just don't vote ever" crowd.

 

it's not even party over country. It's about self-preservation over country. If Trump turns his rage on them within the GOP, they're done and they know it. It's their careers. So, they are waiting him out thinking once he's gone, they won't stand out from the crowd of supporters who are pretending to not have been such a loud supporter of his. 

 

Where are the people who screamed that they had proof of WMDs in Iraq and anybody who says different hates America? Some are gone. Some are still on the Hill pretending they never went that far. 

 

 

[NoCalMike]

10 minutes ago, tshile said:

(much like the few times in my adult life I've seen the same declarations made of the dems, and none of them ever came true either...)

 

 

Specific demographics aside however, I still think the Dems main problem is turning out the people who agree with them principally on issues, but just don't vote.  I think the whole "winning over the other side" is not something you can do in massive numbers election-to-election, that is more of a culture issue that has to be fostered over the long term.

1 minute ago, @SkinsGoldPants said:

 

it's not even party over country. It's about self-preservation over country. If Trump turns his rage on them within the GOP, they're done and they know it. It's their careers. So, they are waiting him out thinking once he's gone, they won't stand out from the crowd of supporters who are pretending to not have been such a loud supporter of his. 

 

 

With some of the GOP I agree, guys like Gym Jordan, Matt Gaetz, etc etc etc....are they even known for much of anything (political career-wise) other than, "I support everything Trump does no matter what?" That is the mantra that has raised their profiles, they have saddled up to Trump in a way that turning on him would bring their short fragile political careers to an abrupt end. 

[No Excuses]

Trump’s coalition of white and Christian identity voters isn’t going away anytime soon and the GOP knows that. Trump has a real appeal to white voters without college degrees, many who used to be Democrat voters. He attracted many first time voters in this demographic and also won over many who voted for Obama twice. 
 

While the GOP would retain socially conservative voters that always vote GOP anyways by abandoning Trump, it’s likely that they will bleed white working class voters who don’t care so much about abortion and gays but are animated by class warfare along racial lines. 

[Burgold]

Once again, more proof that the GOP supports the troops.

 

 

[No Excuses]

14 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

Specific demographics aside however, I still think the Dems main problem is turning out the people who agree with them principally on issues, but just don't vote.  I think the whole "winning over the other side" is not something you can do in massive numbers election-to-election, that is more of a culture issue that has to be fostered over the long term.

I have seen public surveys on non-voters and it seems that non-voters aren’t necessarily left-leaning. It looks like a 50-50 split where some seem to favor leftist policies and others look like traditional GOP voters.
 

There’s a hidden, untapped vote out there for both parties. And honestly, if someone needs extra incentives to vote in 2020, I don’t know how much it is worth investing this person to turn out rather than ensuring that you can reliably turn out people who actually intend to vote but face various kinds of difficulties (financial, transportation etc) or are on the fence and need to be nudged over to your side.

 

I think the biggest challenge for any Dem candidate, especially the more progressive ones, is to find a way to build a coalition of lefty young voters and more moderate suburban voters. Where Dems have lost in the white working class rural voters, they have gained in the suburbs. But if these suburban voters will support someone more progressive than their local candidates and congressional members is an unanswered question.

[tshile]

25 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

Specific demographics aside however, I still think the Dems main problem is turning out the people who agree with them principally on issues, but just don't vote. 

 

Of course.

one of my bigger criticisms of the democrat's base is that... if you're so sure you're right, and if this is such an important issue, maybe you should show up and vote like a responsible citizen. Then come talk to me about how I should be on your site.  Why would I want to side with a bunch of lazy assholes that can't even be bothered to go vote once a year? It's either important to you or it's not, and if you aren't showing up to vote then it's not important to you. And if it's not important to you then why should I give a ****? Especially if it's to support policies that would (at best) not directly help me, and sometimes actually (directly) cost me...

[NoCalMike]

1 minute ago, tshile said:

 

Of course.

one of my bigger criticisms of the democrat's base is that... if you're so sure you're right, and if this is such an important issue, maybe you should show up and vote like a responsible citizen. Then come talk to me about how I should be on your site.  Why would I want to side with a bunch of lazy assholes that can't even be bothered to go vote once a year? It's either important to you or it's not, and if you aren't showing up to vote then it's not important to you. And if it's not important to you then why should I give a ****? Especially if it's to support policies that would (at best) not directly help me, and sometimes actually (directly) cost me...

 

Right, which is why it is so disappointing to hear Biden suggest things like, "With Trump gone, the GOP will go back to......" umm excuse me? Joe, were you sleeping through 8 years of Obama?

[redskinss]

21 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

Trump has a real appeal to white voters without college degrees,

You know why?

Because the Democrats don't ever talk to them anymore.

 

It's always about LGBTQ, or minorities or women, or any group that's been oppressed over the course of our history. 

 

I'm not suggesting that's a bad thing but giving a reason why they've lost white voters without college degrees and honestly quite a few with degrees.

 

If the Democrats want to obliterate trump in 2020 they need to find a way make white voters not feel like they're being ignored. 

 

I'm sure I'm gonna take a whole lot of flak for this opinion but I've seen so much of it lately I can't ignore it.

 

 

 

[Llevron]

33 minutes ago, Burgold said:

Once again, more proof that the GOP supports the troops.

 

That was cold as hell too. Once he became critical of Trump he just turned off. That would be on every campaign add of mine. Thats why Dems cant make anything happen. They find themselves above using **** like this to their advantage. 

[skinsmarydu]

3 minutes ago, redskinss said:

You know why?

Because the Democrats don't ever talk to them anymore.

 

It's always about LGBTQ, or minorities or women, or any group that's been oppressed over the course of our history. 

It's hard to talk to people who have a systemic paranoia of said groups. 

[mistertim]

4 minutes ago, redskinss said:

You know why?

Because the Democrats don't ever talk to them anymore.

 

It's always about LGBTQ, or minorities or women, or any group that's been oppressed over the course of our history. 

 

I'm not suggesting that's a bad thing but giving a reason why they've lost white voters without college degrees and honestly quite a few with degrees.

 

If the Democrats want to obliterate trump in 2020 they need to find a way make white voters not feel like they're being ignored. 

 

I'm sure I'm gonna take a whole lot of flak for this opinion but I've seen so much of it lately I can't ignore it.

 

 

 

An issue I have with this is that one of the main appeals Trump seems to have to his white non college educated base is based on racial grievance and dipping his toe in white nationalist rhetoric (or sometimes more like cannon balling into it). If that's what it takes to get those voters, then the Dems aren't going to try, nor should they. 

[Larry]

Folks, a whole lot of the posts on this page belong in the election thread, instead of the impeachment one.  

[tshile]

49 minutes ago, redskinss said:

 

Because the Democrats don't ever talk to them anymore.

 

It's always about LGBTQ, or minorities or women, or any group that's been oppressed over the course of our history. 
 

 

hah. I already tried that here. Didn’t go over well. 

 

41 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

An issue I have with this is that one of the main appeals Trump seems to have to his white non college educated base is based on racial grievance and dipping his toe in white nationalist rhetoric (or sometimes more like cannon balling into it). If that's what it takes to get those voters, then the Dems aren't going to try, nor should they. 

um, including white people in your “we want to make everyone’s lives better” platform and not excluding them as the only group you never talk to, is not the same as courting white nationalists and racists. 
 

maybe that so many people see it that way is a huge part of why we have this problem. 

[Dan T.]

4 hours ago, Jumbo said:

if you want to see a nicely done easy-to-follow summation of the traitorous ass-klown chicanery of the republicans evolution of "defenses" for trump, try to find a video of jon avalon's "Reality Check" segment from this morning...i think it was on the cnn show new day first...well done piece

 

Here's the link...

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2019/11/22/trump-quid-pro-quo-defenses-reality-check-avlon-newday-vpx.cnn

 

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Larry]

 

4 minutes ago, visionary said:

 

 

And Donald Trump is hers.  

 

And we do NOT want to see where Donald is handling her.  

[@DCGoldPants]

 

[NoCalMike]

Maybe Bolton can just tweet everything he knows?

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

 

[redskinss]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

An issue I have with this is that one of the main appeals Trump seems to have to his white non college educated base is based on racial grievance and dipping his toe in white nationalist rhetoric (or sometimes more like cannon balling into it). If that's what it takes to get those voters, then the Dems aren't going to try, nor should they. 

I 100 percent agree.

I'm not talking about the vitriol trump spews I'm talking about how with Obama I truly felt he was talking to the entire nation but with the current crop of candidates it's only the aforementioned and the incredibly poor, none of which are categories that I or millions of other white non college educated whites fall into.

I'll still vote for whatever Democrat wins the primaries over the anti christ but many will not and I believe that's the biggest reason why.

[NoCalMike]

I think the problem though is that right wing talking heads have found an effective way to turn inclusiveness which should be a plus, into something white working poor folks resent.  When it comes to economics there are your broad policies that will help everyone on a macro level, but there are also a lot of things that need to specifically addressed marginalized groups/minorities/etc etc etc.......some policies cross over, some don't.  Speaking as your average white guy, I personally don't feel threatened when Democratic candidates speak to specific groups about specific issues.  I don't feel "abandoned."  I actually feel pretty good that the candidates I support are willing to tackle these diverse issues and cover a lot of ground as opposed to a narrow message that tax cuts for the wealthy and making cuts to everything besides the military will be a cure all. 

[bearrock]

17 minutes ago, redskinss said:

I 100 percent agree.

I'm not talking about the vitriol trump spews I'm talking about how with Obama I truly felt he was talking to the entire nation but with the current crop of candidates it's only the aforementioned and the incredibly poor, none of which are categories that I or millions of other white non college educated whites fall into.

I'll still vote for whatever Democrat wins the primaries over the anti christ but many will not and I believe that's the biggest reason why.

 

Coming from a bleeding heart liberal, I can understand the sentiment.  It's something that can be very tricky to say without it appearing to absolve the blatant racism, injustices, and discrimination that minority groups face.  But I think there is a segment of the population, lot of them white, non-college graduate males, who are saying "You know I don't have anything against the minority groups.  I don't engage in some active discrimination in my life.  I agree that they suffer a greater degree of injustice than I ever would.  But I have it hard too and no one seems to care.  No one is talking about what can be done to make my life a just a little bit easier.".  Something like that.