2020 Comprehensive Draft Thread

[arftech]

@KDawg, I luv Tua too but my anxiety level goes up when that cat takes a snap.  He's nicked and injured so much I don't think we can risk the 2nd pick on him if he's there.  However, this cat just plays the position at a special level as compared to the other dudes.  He has all the intangibles you want to see from a quarterback...smarts, escapability, arm talent, awareness and tremendous leadership skills!

[volsmet]

2 hours ago, cakmoney61 said:

 

If the Redskins hadn't drafted Haskins last year, I'd be right there with you.  But they did.  So you have to hope he works out 

You don’t have to do that. 

[volsmet]

*

We get the opportunity to have Haskins compete with Tua, I’ve never seen a great competitor get worse due to competition. The rookie QB deals are the nfl’s cheat code, Haskins was fine last year, but if we can bring someone as gifted as Tua in, I don’t give a rats ass who we have at QB, I’m bringing him in. I wouldn’t bring in Rivers, I wouldn’t bring in Tua for $30 million, but I can’t pass on that talent/contract combination. You have to get far fewer things correct if Haskins or Tua prove legitimate while on their rookie deals, ... and then you trade the guy who wins the job before you pay him. Dallas should have traded Dak, LAR should have traded Goff, we should trade our first round QBs before we pay them. If Tua or Haskins became elite QBs, trade them for more. 
 

I don’t need 10+ years out of my first rounder, I need him to improve as many other positions as possible — nobody can do that on the field like a gifted QB & nobody can do that in the offseason like a cheap QB. 
 

I wonder what Dallas could get for Dak, they should be trying to move him for Tua, and they probably could. 

 

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, arftech said:

@KDawg, I luv Tua too but my anxiety level goes up when that cat takes a snap.  He's nicked and injured so much I don't think we can risk the 2nd pick on him if he's there.  

Redskins PTSD is real my brother.

[skinny21]

26 minutes ago, volsmet said:

You don’t have to do that. 

You certainly don’t.  
 

There are some obvious parallels between us and Arizona last year (new staff, 2nd year 1st round qb that has question marks, a top qb available to us in the draft, a relatively weak team).  The two differences that give me pause though (there are more of course) are 1) Haskins has shown all of the tangible things I want to see out of a qb (albeit with a lot of room for improvement), and the qb likely to be available has major injury concerns.  
 

When you then factor in the other route/talent available to us (Young) and the Bosa effect on the Niners... I just can’t get behind going with Tua.  
 

With that being said, one option that would intrigue me is trading down and then landing Tua.  We gain picks to further improve the team, we have an excellent qb situation (talent-wise anyway), and the potential to trade one away for a high draft pick down the road.  In a sense, this might be the biggest draft gamble in recent history, which would be both exciting and terrifying.  
 

Edit: woah @volsmet - I swear I hadn’t read your post before I submitted this.

 

[JamesMadisonSkins]

3 hours ago, KDawg said:

I struggle with a lot of the buzz words these guys use. Generational, "could bust", "could be a hall of famer", we get it. It's a crap shoot and everyone is guessing. No one wants to be overly negative on any prospect as, in the end, these are young dudes getting their entry level position. But a lot of this stuff is kinda cringey. 

In Miller's defense, he and his team do a great job running the Stick to Football podcast. In Friday's episode the closed the show out with some listener questions, and someone had asked who in their Top 5 they thought had the highest risk of being a bust. I believe he and Connor Rogers both agreed on Simmons. FWIW, Simmons is in their Top 5. They were just saying if he has any flaws it's that he struggles to shed blocks, so the team that drafts him is going to need to make sure he is schemed properly. It wasn't that they THINK he will bust, they just had to ID a player who they had graded really highly who was the riskiest. I think it was a fair assessment, and I suppose the way I framed it in here was not done properly. But it was just an interesting take on Simmons. He said the hybrid S/LBs going from college to the NFL struggle the most to find a place because they come in without a defined role. That's essentially the crux of what he was saying.

 

I actually think this team was incapable of using his talents prior to this year for obvious reasons. But with our DL and JDR as the Def. Coordinator, I have no doubt that if we drafted him, we'd use him properly.

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

In Miller's defense, he and his team do a great job running the Stick to Football podcast. In Friday's episode the closed the show out with some listener questions, and someone had asked who in their Top 5 they thought had the highest risk of being a bust. I believe he and Connor Rogers both agreed on Simmons. FWIW, Simmons is in their Top 5. They were just saying if he has any flaws it's that he struggles to shed blocks, so the team that drafts him is going to need to make sure he is schemed properly. It wasn't that they THINK he will bust, they just had to ID a player who they had graded really highly who was the riskiest. I think it was a fair assessment, and I suppose the way I framed it in here was not done properly. But it was just an interesting take on Simmons. He said the hybrid S/LBs going from college to the NFL struggle the most to find a place because they come in without a defined role. That's essentially the crux of what he was saying.

 

I actually think this team was incapable of using his talents prior to this year for obvious reasons. But with our DL and JDR as the Def. Coordinator, I have no doubt that if we drafted him, we'd use him properly.

 

That's fair.

 

I think Okudah has higher bust potential, though. Not so much because I think Okudah is a poor talent or lacks anything that you like to see. He's a pretty prototypical prospect at corner. Dude can ball. But the reason I'd select him over anyone else? He plays corner. One of the easiest positions in football to roller coaster on a year to year basis. 

 

And I think Joe Burrow has an even higher bust potential due to his attitude. 

 

Tua has a high bust potential right now due to injury, but if that checks out his bust potential drops significantly. 

 

Who are their top 5?

 

I think Young and Simmons are actually the surest bets to succeed. Okudah has just as much talent as Young does for his position, but it's a more volatile and reliant on others position than what Young/Simmons play.

 

Other than Tua, I think those guys are the best 3 players in the draft class.

[JamesMadisonSkins]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Who are their top 5?

I forget Connor Rogers' but Miller's is:

1. Young

2. Burrow

3. Okudah

4. Jeudy

5. Simmons

[Est.1974]

If Tua’s fully fit then the Bengals have to be seriously considering him at #1

[KDawg]

5 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

I forget Connor Rogers' but Miller's is:

1. Young

2. Burrow

3. Okudah

4. Jeudy

5. Simmons

 

Man, I don't know. Of those 5, if I were listing them 1-5 with 1 as the highest bust potential my list would be:

 

1. Burrow

2. Jeudy

3. Okudah

4. Simmons

5. Young

 

1-3 could be swapped any which way. But that's what my gut said as I typed so I rolled with it.

 

I don't mind disagreeing. That's fair It's a crap shoot. I just don't understand how "block shedding" becomes a reason that makes more sense for a bust (where, by the way, Simmons is actually good at doing) than your position like quarterback/cornerback, which are extremely volatile. Or wide receiver, where being drafted astronomically high makes you a target of angst if you don't live up the previous year's rookie receivers.

 

Of course, again, it's all opinion based. I'd just like to hear well respected guys (like they are, and rightfully so, they're good) be more informative to the masses with this stuff. Position MATTERS in bust rate.

[cakmoney61]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

Where the hesitation should come in is if you think Haskins can actually be the guy (or more, you think he's going to be a better NFL QB than Tua). If you do, you have to see what happens. If you don't, a quarterback should be on the table. 

 

Ultimately, I think we wind up with Young. And that's a good thing. But dismissing other options is a mistake for any fan who delves deep into this stuff. 

 

This is my point.  Did Haskins already show you that he is a bust or do you see the potential to be a very good QB?  If you think he could be the guy, why would you draft another QB with a history of injuries in the first round?  Tua is no more a guarantee than Haskins at this point, so we are back to hoping he works out just like we hope Haskins works out.

 

If the Redskins had not drafted Haskins, I might have taken a chance on even an injured Tua over Young.  But Haskins showed potential last year.  Tua is injured and has had a problem with injuries since he has been the starter.  And Young is a consensus can't-miss talent by the so-called experts.

 

Of course, the Redskins should do their due diligence with every position in the draft.  Any fan who loves this team should want and expect nothing less.

[volsmet]

30 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

You certainly don’t.  
 

There are some obvious parallels between us and Arizona last year (new staff, 2nd year 1st round qb that has question marks, a top qb available to us in the draft, a relatively weak team).  The two differences that give me pause though (there are more of course) are 1) Haskins has shown all of the tangible things I want to see out of a qb (albeit with a lot of room for improvement), and the qb likely to be available has major injury concerns.  
 

When you then factor in the other route/talent available to us (Young) and the Bosa effect on the Niners... I just can’t get behind going with Tua.  
 

With that being said, one option that would intrigue me is trading down and then landing Tua.  We gain picks to further improve the team, we have an excellent qb situation (talent-wise anyway), and the potential to trade one away for a high draft pick down the road.  In a sense, this might be the biggest draft gamble in recent history, which would be both exciting and terrifying.  
 

Edit: woah @volsmet - I swear I hadn’t read your post before I submitted this.

 

The other Bosa, Joey Bosa has been great for SD, but they’d have been legitimate SB contenders if they’d landed Wentz, gotten rid of Rivers, & used that Rivers money to build a better team. Nick Bosa is nasty, but I think he’s given far too much credit for the turn around. 
 

I like Young as much as anyone likes him, but I value the rookie QB contract more than 99.9%, or so it seems. 4 more years of Haskins & 5 of Tua give us so much flexibility &, imo, drastically increases our chance of securing the rookie-contract-QB (rcq) to build around for a few years. 
 

Taking Tua could be a disaster, Young is going to be a pro bowl player, but it’s a worthy discussion imo. If we had drafted Lock, who people love right now & who I am a fan of, I’d still lean towards taking Tua. 
 

I should do some research on it, but it seems to me the very good + rcq’s are far more valuable than DE’s. Houston lost Watt & Clowney & got to the same place in the playoffs that they always do. 
 

[The Consigliere]

16 hours ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

Uh, that's it.  You've just named them.  The recent endless supply of studs stops at 2. 

 

2019 - 3rd round, Terry McLaurin (1 season over 900 yards)

2017 - 2nd round, Michael Thomas (4 seasons)

 

 

You'd have to go back to the 2009 draft, Brian Hartline in the 4th round, to find the next OSU WR with more than 900 receiving yards in a season.  The perception of OSU producing WR talent is a new thing.  You'd have to go back to the 1990's for OSU to be thought of that way.

 

The OSU WR to be drafted higher than Terry last year, Parris Campbell, only had 127 receiving yards as a rookie.  And it's not like he had any competition.  TY Hilton kept getting hurt and only played in 44% of their snaps.

I get that Curtis Samuel only had the 54-627-6 season last year, but a huge chunk of the problem for him was the absolutely horrific production at QB, Kyle Allen finished 33rd league wide via that DVOA stat they produce for QB's. He's not going to be a yardage monster regardless, he'll also get 15-25 carries a year w/Deebo like usage in the run game, maybe more, but Samuel's been very, very productive when getting even halfway competent QB play, I definitely view him as a hit at WR. Campbell was hurt most of last year so we'll see how things go when he's healthy. 

[volsmet]

12 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

I forget Connor Rogers' but Miller's is:

1. Young

2. Burrow

3. Okudah

4. Jeudy

5. Simmons

4 are the same mine, just swap Burrow for Tua. Burrow is the first guy to get his aarp card at graduation. 
 

I must say, I’m inclined to have a 5b, as Mayock always did, just to get Thomas in there. 

3 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

I get that Curtis Samuel only had the 54-627-6 season last year, but a huge chunk of the problem for him was the absolutely horrific production at QB, Kyle Allen finished 33rd league wide via that DVOA stat they produce for QB's. He's not going to be a yardage monster regardless, he'll also get 15-25 carries a year w/Deebo like usage in the run game, maybe more, but Samuel's been very, very productive when getting even halfway competent QB play, I definitely view him as a hit at WR. Campbell was hurt most of last year so we'll see how things go when he's healthy. 

Unleash the beast

 

 

[KDawg]

18 minutes ago, cakmoney61 said:

 

This is my point.  Did Haskins already show you that he is a bust or do you see the potential to be a very good QB?  If you think he could be the guy, why would you draft another QB with a history of injuries in the first round?  Tua is no more a guarantee than Haskins at this point, so we are back to hoping he works out just like we hope Haskins works out.

 

If the Redskins had not drafted Haskins, I might have taken a chance on even an injured Tua over Young.  But Haskins showed potential last year.  Tua is injured and has had a problem with injuries since he has been the starter.  And Young is a consensus can't-miss talent by the so-called experts.

 

 

I don't see Haskins the same way you do.

 

I see a guy who absolutely improved, but mechanical issues loomed large at times even in better performances against weak defenses like the Giants.

 

I see a guy who has potential to be a capable NFL quarterback.

 

I think others want so bad for Haskins to be the guy, for various reasons, that they forget the maturity issues, the mechanical issues, the poor play and then, not only that, jump to the conclusion based on, what, a game an a half? That he is a franchise level quarterback.

 

Do you think Dwayne > Tua straight up?

 

What about Dwayne > Injured Tua straight up?

 

As much as I think Haskins can improve, and be a good starting NFL quarterback, I don't think he has anywhere near the ability of Tua in either case. And, Dwayne is under contract. I'm in full agreement with @volsmet. Two rookie quarterbacks who people think can be the guy battling for the starting spot. If they both turn out, you have massive trade assets under cheap contract. You also have a backup and a starter.

 

Though, based on Haskins previous play as a backup, I think he'd fold in that situation. But is that a player you want competing to be your QB?

18 minutes ago, volsmet said:

 

Unleash the beast

 

 

 

if AJ Klein hits the market, I'd without a doubt inquire on him.

[crabbypatty]

I don't see Ron going after Tua. There's the whole Snyder loves DH thing, and I don't think he would rock the boat right out of the gate. There's been plenty of talk about consensus and everyone being in agreement, I just don't see it happening. Don't mean it can't, just doesn't seem likely.

 

In any event I think the draft hinges on Detroit. I have been saying for awhile now that they make the most sense for Tua and are absolutely in play for him at #3, regardless of the talk about Stafford. You have a dynamic talent sitting there in your face and you're gonna pass that up because you've got a 30+ year old qb on a $25 million dollar deal coming off a broken back? I'm not buying it. They can easily shed that contract next year for a very low dead cap penalty.

I hope the Tua mania rises to a fever pitch and detroit wants to trade up to ensure they get him, landing us a 2nd or 3rd and CY.

 

This draft could be franchise changing without the massive trade down.

Imagine: trade with Det, for their 2nd, now we have 1,2,3,4,4,5,7,7

Trade trent for a 2nd. 1,2,2,3,4,4,5,7,7

Trade Dunbar for a 3rd. 1,2,2,3,3,4,4,5,7,7

Kerrigan restructures/Reed cut

you now have 5 picks in the top 100, AND Chase, AND no significant cap guarantees (once Smith comes off next year) Except for Collins and whatever FA acquisitions you add this year going forward.

That's huge and would be a winner in my book.

It all hinges on detroit though. It sucks we have to wait 2 more months to find out what will happen.

 

 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

15 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

I get that Curtis Samuel only had the 54-627-6 season last year, but a huge chunk of the problem for him was the absolutely horrific production at QB, Kyle Allen finished 33rd league wide via that DVOA stat they produce for QB's. He's not going to be a yardage monster regardless, he'll also get 15-25 carries a year w/Deebo like usage in the run game, maybe more, but Samuel's been very, very productive when getting even halfway competent QB play, I definitely view him as a hit at WR. Campbell was hurt most of last year so we'll see how things go when he's healthy. 

 

Firmly disagree. 

 

This was Samuel's 3rd year in the league, by this time, if you were going to break out and be a good WR, it would happen.  Instead we got someone whose not a deep threat, catching only 51.4% of his passes.  His fellow starting WR, DJ Moore, caught 64.4%.

 

Curtis Samuel is supposed to be a weapon with the ball in his hands.  But he only averaged 2.8 yards extra after each catch.  In comparison:

-DJ Moore, 4.4 YAC per reception

-Deebo Samuel, 8.3 YAC per reception

 

Curtis Samuel had 2 different Head Coaches and 3 different QB's.  Let's compare him to another team that had the same situation, the Redskins:

- Steven Sims, 5.1 YAC

- Terry McLaurin, 3.7 YAC

- Kelvin Harmon, 3.1 YAC

 

Harmon is a plodder, he's not doing anything with the ball in his hands yet had more YAC per reception than Samuel.  We can't even blame the Panthers awkward situation as the reason Samuel had such a low YAC per reception either.  He also had only 2.8 YAC in 2018 as well.  At a certain point this is who he is.

[skinny21]

@volsmet Ironically, I’ve probably been pretty reluctant to attribute SF’s success to Bosa, so I’m with you there.  
So, at what point do you just roll with the qb you have/like?  What I mean is, how often do you look to add a qb in the first?  Do you go so far as to trade up for them because of the benefits the rookie contract provides (even if you have one you like)? At what point are you hurting your team because you’re not using 1st rounders on other positions?  
All kinda nebulous questions as situations will be different every time, I know.   

[cakmoney61]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I don't see Haskins the same way you do.

 

I see a guy who absolutely improved, but mechanical issues loomed large at times even in better performances against weak defenses like the Giants.

 

I see a guy who has potential to be a capable NFL quarterback.

 

I think others want so bad for Haskins to be the guy, for various reasons, that they forget the maturity issues, the mechanical issues, the poor play and then, not only that, jump to the conclusion based on, what, a game an a half? That he is a franchise level quarterback.

 

Do you think Dwayne > Tua straight up?

 

What about Dwayne > Injured Tua straight up?

 

As much as I think Haskins can improve, and be a good starting NFL quarterback, I don't think he has anywhere near the ability of Tua in either case. And, Dwayne is under contract. I'm in full agreement with @volsmet. Two rookie quarterbacks who people think can be the guy battling for the starting spot. If they both turn out, you have massive trade assets under cheap contract. You also have a backup and a starter.

 

Though, based on Haskins previous play as a backup, I think he'd fold in that situation. But is that a player you want competing to be your QB?

 

Personally, I'm not sold or unsold on Haskins, because he has started what two or three games late in the year and was never given any indication that he could possibly be a starter from the beginning.  The young man was wanted by some and not so much by others in the FO which apparently included the head coach and he knew that.  So, there are extenuating circumstances that limited his development and his success which included his own immaturity. 

 

Regardless, I would absolutely take an uninjured Tua over Haskins 1,000 times out of 1,000.   But that isn't the situation.   Needless to say, the decision makers have to figure out what the future may hold concerning Haskins, Tua, and Young and make a decision.

 

For sure, Tua should not be dismissed as an option without any consideration, because that would be a gross dereliction of duty.  A year ago I was hoping the Redskins could draft Tua and behold they have an opportunity to do just that.  I wonder how many people saw that coming.

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

@volsmet Ironically, I’ve probably been pretty reluctant to attribute SF’s success to Bosa, so I’m with you there.  
So, at what point do you just roll with the qb you have/like?  What I mean is, how often do you look to add a qb in the first?  Do you go so far as to trade up for them because of the benefits the rookie contract provides (even if you have one you like)? At what point are you hurting your team because you’re not using 1st rounders on other positions?  
All kinda nebulous questions as situations will be different every time, I know.   

 

I'm telling you, defensively, people keep forgetting about Greenlaw. Who I think was pretty good in the sense that he allowed the defense to do some different things. In the Vikings game he was shadowing Cook and kept him totally in check. 

That lets the pass rush tee off on Cousins. 

 

It's a beautiful symphony. 

[Going Commando]

4 hours ago, KDawg said:

I'm with you. Have been. I think Tua is the best quarterback, and personality, of the quarterbacks in the group. I am just not sold on Burrow and his sense of entitlement. When I saw him smoking a cigar post national championship, in his uniform, with a "Big Dick Joe" hat, I lost a lot of umph for him as a prospect. 

 

Come on man, that's petty stuff to knock him for.  By every single account, Burrow's intangibles are off the charts great.  It's his biggest selling point.  Those other kids in that LSU locker room would take a bullet for him.  He rallied and led them at a masterful level this season.

 

The kid's got swagger, which is a good thing, not a bad thing.  You've got to have swagger to be a good leader in the NFL.  Patrick Mahomes has more swagger than anyone else in the league and it's a big part of why he's the league's best player.

 

If anything, I wish Haskins was more like Burrow.  Burrow is very natural and keeps it loose while staying locked in.  Haskins is very cerebral and hungry, and at times he can be awkward and uptight.  I want Haskins to relax, be confident, and let his dick swing like Burrow does.  That's how the great ones keep it fun and keep their sanity.

[HTTRDynasty]

32 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Patrick Mahomes has more swagger than anyone else in the league and it's a big part of why he's the league's best player.

 

Yup.

 

[KDawg]

34 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Come on man, that's petty stuff to knock him for.  By every single account, Burrow's intangibles are off the charts great.  It's his biggest selling point.  Those other kids in that LSU locker room would take a bullet for him.  He rallied and led them at a masterful level this season.

 

The kid's got swagger, which is a good thing, not a bad thing.  You've got to have swagger to be a good leader in the NFL.  Patrick Mahomes has more swagger than anyone else in the league and it's a big part of why he's the league's best player.

 

If anything, I wish Haskins was more like Burrow.  Burrow is very natural and keeps it loose while staying locked in.  Haskins is very cerebral and hungry, and at times he can be awkward and uptight.  I want Haskins to relax, be confident, and let his dick swing like Burrow does.  That's how the great ones keep it fun and keep their sanity.

 

I don't think it's petty. I want my quarterback to carry himself like a professional. Big Dick Joe is about as cringeworthy as you can get.

 

I do think he's going to be a good pro. 

 

But I don't think he's better than Tua. 

[HTTRDynasty]

 

[volsmet]

2 hours ago, cakmoney61 said:

 

This is my point.  Did Haskins already show you that he is a bust or do you see the potential to be a very good QB?  If you think he could be the guy, why would you draft another QB with a history of injuries in the first round? 

 

Because a stud QB on a rookie contract is worth significantly more than a decent qb on a rookie contract and any DE. Being atrocious gave us the opportunity to greatly increase our odds of winning that lottery, that’s an easy move, if you grade Tua out as an elite prospect.

 

1 hour ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

Firmly disagree. 

 

This was Samuel's 3rd year in the league, by this time, if you were going to break out and be a good WR, it would happen.  Instead we got someone whose not a deep threat, catching only 51.4% of his passes.  His fellow starting WR, DJ Moore, caught 64.4%.

 

Curtis Samuel is supposed to be a weapon with the ball in his hands.  But he only averaged 2.8 yards extra after each catch.  In comparison:

-DJ Moore, 4.4 YAC per reception

-Deebo Samuel, 8.3 YAC per reception

 

Curtis Samuel had 2 different Head Coaches and 3 different QB's.  Let's compare him to another team that had the same situation, the Redskins:

- Steven Sims, 5.1 YAC

- Terry McLaurin, 3.7 YAC

- Kelvin Harmon, 3.1 YAC

 

Harmon is a plodder, he's not doing anything with the ball in his hands yet had more YAC per reception than Samuel.  We can't even blame the Panthers awkward situation as the reason Samuel had such a low YAC per reception either.  He also had only 2.8 YAC in 2018 as well.  At a certain point this is who he is.

I believe Samuel spent a large portion of the season leading the nfl in separation created per route.