Renegade7 Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 So this discussion started in RTT thanks to @Kosher Ham and asking how he thought people would remember R. Kelly. Conversation went straight to O.J. in the sense of how will some of the more famous people that we know of that have done some really messed up **** be remembered, but it wasn't clear how far off we were talking. So the premise of the thread is to pick anyone that IS NOT A POLITICIAN (or comment on other's picks) and ask will they remembered more for the Good things they did, the Bad things they did, or equally both when they die? When that shows up on CNN and the commentary starts, what's its going to be dominated by? So I'm going to give some examples and my opinions: R. Kelly - The Good - I believe people today that remember the Dave Chappell skit are never going to forget that R. Kelly in his personal sex life has just gone too damn far too many times. I knew about him supposedly messing with underage women and lately trying to isolate his sexual partners from their family members to make it easier to do whatever he wanted to do with him. I knew he was close with Aaliyah, but I did not know that he married her when she was 15 and lied about her age, that her and her family seeked an annulment and their best to make it seem like it never happened, and that's what lead her to working with Timberland. As an artist, dude has some seriously iconic songs and extremely talented. But the more I think about, I'm not sure why we haven't turned on him yet. When he dies, people will talk about how he went to far a couple times, but he'll get memorialized at the first music awards show because of his contributions to R&B. If we haven't Bill Cosby'd him by now, I don't think we're going to. Michael Jackson - Both - This one absolutely sucks, because he was a revolutionary in so many ways in regards to not only music but entertainment. But future generations are always going to look at early pictures of him and later pictures of him and realize something went horribly wrong there. I mean, the internet jokes about him not being able to molest little kids anymore started the day he died, and it being over something like overdosing on painkillers isn't going to help his case in being able to separate him as an artist from him as a person. Some of his music is truly timeless, and even if people pass him from a statistical success standpoint it will be really hard to supplant him as the King of Pop (sort of the same way LeBron will never pass Jordan no matter how many stats he passes him in). The thing is, as easy as it will be to find his music, it will be to find him hang his kid over that balcony so people can get a better look at him. Him being as successful as he was, even all the way back to his days in Motown, is the only thing keeping his fall from being more memorable then his rise. What he was and what he became will never be separated, he's ying-yang'd himself into the history books. O.J. Simpson - The Bad - This is the poll question only because I get the feeling Kosh disagrees with me. Ya, I get it, some of ya'll are old enough to witness the shock of seeing him on the freeway in the White Bronco. Many people my age and younger never had that shock. I talk to some people today that don't know what Naked Gun is (Jesus, am I old? How much longer until I'm eligible for SS?). Did you know he was the first RB to run for 2000 yards and the only one to do it in a 14 game season? I have to look that up to remind myself, because anytime the conversation about greatest running backs ever come up his name never does. For people my age, we know about the aftermath of the trial and him eventually going to jail anyway for trying to steal his own stuff back. He was never for me some kind of role model, he was always "the one that got away with it". And honestly, that car chase, trial, and verdict is so much more culturally relevant then what he did before then. I've never seen him in a movie since, I've never seen him talked about on an NFL broadcast ever, not even in comparisons of players, ever. When he dies, I don't expect some grand farewell from the Buffalo Bills. And even if they do, it will get completely drowned out by the blowhorn of our society trying to relive that moment in time again, as the trial alone is one thing, but how that car chase was covered arguably changed the way news was covered as well. Everything is breaking news now with TV News, gotta be there, gotta be first, don't have to be sure just have to KEEP YOU WATCHING. The fact that people felt overdue justice when he got sent to jail in Vegas speaks volumes, like people had been waiting for something horrible to happen to that man for years, it was a f'n celebration for some people. The effect on the way real-time news is covered now, we've never recovered. So again, the premise of the thread is to pick anyone (as long as they aren't a politician, we don't need anymore Trump threads) and discuss how when they die if they will be remembered more for the Good they did, the Bad they did, or Both equally. Extra credit for discussing how people will be viewed even further in the future then that. I stand by all three of my answers if we're talking say 100 years from now. I'm holding my answer on Chris Brown depending on if he dies early or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88Comrade2000 Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 The obvious one is Bill Cosby. I think he will be remembered for both. I Spy, Fat Albert, The Cosby Show. You can't take away that. Those TV shows will always be there to watch. Sadly, though you also can't take away his crimes of drugging women and having his way with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 I only know R Kelly for peeing on underage girls. Michael Jackson will no doubt be both. OJ Simpson was always "that guy on trial for murder" for me growing up. It wasn't until later I learned he played football (hence the big deal of the murder trial, I guess). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted August 28, 2018 Author Share Posted August 28, 2018 9 hours ago, Rdskns2000 said: The obvious one is Bill Cosby. I think he will be remembered for both. I Spy, Fat Albert, The Cosby Show. You can't take away that. Those TV shows will always be there to watch. Sadly, though you also can't take away his crimes of drugging women and having his way with them. That's one of the worsts for me because it was literally at the last minute his whole legacy was nuked from orbit. Nevermind most of the allegations can neither be proved or disproved now (I do believe he rolled that way, which I don't understand why he felt it was neccesary) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosher Ham Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Here is one for you... Mike Tyson. Hmm... Very few folks in history have their own video game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sticksboi05 Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 There is no reason even arguing about OJ. Nobody ever talks about his USC or Buffalo career anymore. He will always be the guy who got away. I think R. Kelly is actually more on the Bad side at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chew Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Michael Jackson is the greatest entertainer this planet has ever seen. But a lot folks born after 2010, though they may acknowledge his good music, will mostly know him for being a weirdo and creep that hanged his kid over balcony and had sleepovers with kids. Morgan Freeman being exposed by #metoo was rough. I mean, can you think of a more respected man in entertainment? Think of all the living legends today: Eastwood, Connery, Caine, Poitier, Nicholson, Redford, James Earl. Morgan Freeman is right there with them as one of the most respected actors in the business. Shawshank, Glory, Driving Miss Daisy, Seven, Lean on Me, and 163 other films. He's jokingly known as "God" for Christ's sake (Bruce Almighty). And boom. Freeman's reputation flushed down the toilet because we found out that he liked to make sexual advances and inappropriate sexual comments towards younger women regularly over the past several decades, regardless of who was in the room. He was a friggin' creep. I do remember like 10-15 years ago a lot of eyebrows were raised when was in a car accident or something with a mistress that was much younger than him, but I didn't think anything much of it at the time. I'm glad Freeman got exposed, and I hope more creeps get found out. Great movies are timeless, and 100 years from now I don't think many of our great grandchildren will know much of Morgan's disgusting behavior when watching Glory. Either way, time's up, ****. 5 minutes ago, Sticksboi05 said: I think R. Kelly is actually more on the Bad side at this point. I think so too. He's the king of 90s R&B, but peeing on teenage girls is something he'll never be able to separate himself from. That's some sick ****. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 R. Kelly has definitely been booted. not sure what you are talking about. What about Roman Polanski? Woody Allen? Kevin Spacey? I would say Mel Gibson, but he has been let back in the club. No one talks about Sean Penn beating the crap out of Madonna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 How can you be remembered badly for something you DIDN’T DO? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Spacey's new movie made something like 126 bucks on it's opening weekend. https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/movies/2018/08/19/kevin-spacey-what-you-need-know-billionaire-boys-club/995809002/ I think it's pretty safe to say he's not going to have much of a career anymore. I think Woody Allen's transgressions have been swept under the rug, IIRC he's still making movies as his leisure and not been shut out from anywhere. I don't hear anyone talking about what he did anymore. Where do you guys land on Michael Vick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 8 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said: I think Woody Allen's transgressions have been swept under the rug, IIRC he's still making movies as his leisure and not been shut out from anywhere. I don't hear anyone talking about what he did anymore. even the molestation allegations of a few years ago have been swept under the rug. 9 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said: Where do you guys land on Michael Vick? He served his time, got out, and started a new life. I think people will see him more for good than bad because of that. Especially since he was apologetic and actually did stuff to help animal rights groups. I don't think he even belongs in this convo, if I am being real. The tarnish will be there but tho and it is part of his story. Someone like Woody Allen and Mel Gibson, their marks seem to have faded and neither of them suffered for what they did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Just now, BenningRoadSkin said: even the molestation allegations of a few years ago have been swept under the rug. Partially because, IMO, Woody Allen isn't really relevant too much anymore. Yeah, he still makes movies but from what I can tell I think his best work came in the 70s and 80s. Woody Allen appeals to such a niche market, I don't think any news about molestation is going to make front pages in the way Spacey's did. Spacey had a huge presence and a widely loved show that was accessible to a lot of different types of people, I don't think Woody Allen does. Spacey was definitely relevant when his news broke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted August 28, 2018 Author Share Posted August 28, 2018 28 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said: R. Kelly has definitely been booted. not sure what you are talking about. What about Roman Polanski? Woody Allen? Kevin Spacey? I would say Mel Gibson, but he has been let back in the club. No one talks about Sean Penn beating the crap out of Madonna. His trapped in the closet series was totally getting "oh, cool, a new one is coming out" treatment, what was it like 7 of them? His last album (not the Christmas one) in 2015 was #1 on billboard r&b and 16 overall, talking about taking trapped in the closet to broadway, was on tour in 2016. If he's supposed to be getting the Cosby treatment, could fooled me. I can see leaning towards both, but saying he's been banished and disowned, nope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 With Vick, I sort of think his good doesn't outweigh the bad because his good wasn't all that special. He was awesome in college, but a pretty middle-of-the-road NFL QB. And he did some ****ty things before the dog fighting. That said, of all of the people listed, he's probably done the most to actively redeem himself (actively working with the Humane Society) which, I think, sets him apart from the rest. The rest either died in shame or just waited for time to pass before attempting a career relaunch. OJ ****ing murdered someone. No football career outweighs murdering someone. I've never seen a Woody Allen movie. I made a very long post about Polanski in the other thread. He's a really talented guy, but you can't put your dick in a 13 year old and not have that be your defining moment, even if you directed Chinatown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busch1724 Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Tiger Woods Thinking he'll be remembered fondly with the other stuff as a distant footnote. For right now, it's still fun to joke about his misdeeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebluefood Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Man, look at the breakdown of that vote. Yeah, I sorta have to remind myself that O.J. was a world class halfback in college and the pros because everything else completely overshadows it (and rightfully so). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted August 28, 2018 Author Share Posted August 28, 2018 1 hour ago, Kosher Ham said: Here is one for you... Mike Tyson. Hmm... Very few folks in history have their own video game. Both, because we've moved on from that period in his life and become likeable all the sudden, in roasts, fighting IPman, but how can anyone forget him going after homie''s ear like a f'n zombie? He's in that weird territory I see tiger in where he'll be remembered for both, too, but as redemption storie, not cut off permanently from society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadySkinsFan Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 I don't like Woody Allen movies, saw part of one I think. No opinion on Vick, which says a lot. OJ, he served time for one crime and I think he killed two people so he's not coming back from that. Polanski raped a 13year old. Don't really watch his movies. Michael Jackson, love his music, hard to tell about the child molestation charges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 40 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said: Partially because, IMO, Woody Allen isn't really relevant too much anymore. Yeah, he still makes movies but from what I can tell I think his best work came in the 70s and 80s. Woody Allen appeals to such a niche market, I don't think any news about molestation is going to make front pages in the way Spacey's did. Spacey had a huge presence and a widely loved show that was accessible to a lot of different types of people, I don't think Woody Allen does. Spacey was definitely relevant when his news broke. Woody Allen has always appealed to a niche market. And I won't say he is not relevant since he still gets A-list actors to be in his movies and gets major studio backing. edit: I didn't realize a couple of his movies this decade made 9 figures according to Wiki. his movies are often cheap AF too. He isn't irrelevant at all. 33 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: His trapped in the closet series was totally getting "oh, cool, a new one is coming out" treatment, what was it like 7 of them? His last album (not the Christmas one) in 2015 was #1 on billboard r&b and 16 overall, talking about taking trapped in the closet to broadway, was on tour in 2016. If he's supposed to be getting the Cosby treatment, could fooled me. I can see leaning towards both, but saying he's been banished and disowned, nope I never said he was getting the Cosby treatment. I said a lot of people have canceled R.Kelly. In fact, google "cancel R.Kelly." This has all happened in the last 5-6 months since the stories of him having houses to entrap women came out. IIRC, Spotify banned his music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Depends largely on how great the good things and the bad things were, and how well known. A lot of great historical figures did some shady, sometimes horrible, things. A lot of celebrities that are thought of fondly were creeps too, but it’s just not talked about enough for the general attitudes toward them to shift. Take Paul Walker for instance: https://jalopnik.com/when-are-we-going-to-address-how-paul-walker-had-relati-1828227580 Quote Most troubling, though, is that Pilchard-Gosnell, the woman he was dating until his death, also makes no appearance. Both Walker’s relationship with Pilchard-Gosnell—and another woman before her—weren’t addressed at all. You’d think that a film documenting Walker’s life would be the place and time to set the record straight if it needed to be. Because Walker’s relationship with Pilchard-Gosnell was controversial. The In Touch Weekly story mentioned: “Jasmine began dating Paul when she was just 16-years-old — he was 33 at the time. They had been living together at the time of his death, and Jasmine had been close with his 15-year-old teen daughter, Meadow.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grego Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 The hypocrisy concerning Polanski in particular is something to behold. There was a petition in defense of him that quite a few big names signed. Mind boggling. Sam Seder captured it best - "Don’t care re Polanski, but I hope if my daughter is ever raped it is by an older truly talented man w/a great sense of mise en scene” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted August 28, 2018 Author Share Posted August 28, 2018 9 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said: I never said he was getting the Cosby treatment. I said a lot of people have canceled R.Kelly. In fact, google "cancel R.Kelly." This has all happened in the last 5-6 months since the stories of him having houses to entrap women came out. IIRC, Spotify banned his music. Ya, that's what I thought you meant by booted, Spotify reversed it's decision a month after doing it. It's bad, not denying that, but his followers on Spotify went up after that, not down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobandweave Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 History is written by the winners...imo R. Kelly - Bad, one does not get to pee on other people and have others forget Michael Jackson - Good. He is a winner, in time his history will be like that of Marion Berry stricken from the history books O.J. Simpson - Bad, not only much more recent his crimes of murder and armed robbery, but ask yourself which RBs who rushed in the 1970's are remembered today fondly? Bill Cosby - Both. Can't erase completely all of the joy he made for all of us because of the sick things he did behind the scenes Mike Tyson - Good. He's another winner and still the most exciting boxer most of us ever saw in our lifetimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 What did Polanski direct? He is a director, right? Also, I’m good with Vick. He’s paid his debt to society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobandweave Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 4 minutes ago, Springfield said: What did Polanski direct? He is a director, right? Director credits https://m.imdb.com/name/nm0000591/filmotype/director All around credits https://m.imdb.com/name/nm0000591/filmotype I have no opinion about him or Woody Allen, I don't think I was the target audience for those movies and don't think I've ever seen one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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