Is this the most talented yet misused defensive front we've had in years?

[JSSkinz]

Our 4 young interior lineman are the only real positive of the defense, everyone else is either aging or inconsistent, all are pretty much disposable besides the guys on rookie deals.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

5 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

Our 4 young interior lineman are the only real positive of the defense, everyone else is either aging or inconsistent, all are pretty much disposable besides the guys on rookie deals.

Unfortunately by the time some help comes behind them, they won’t be on rookie deals anymore.

[Capt'n Obvious]

16 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

Our 4 young interior lineman are the only real positive of the defense, everyone else is either aging or inconsistent, all are pretty much disposable besides the guys on rookie deals.

 

Agreed. Edge rushers have been way too inconsistent, linebackers are either slow or lack awareness, and the secondary is a mess.

 

Interior line has provided at least some reason for optimism although getting gashed consistently with the run the last few weeks has dimmed that bright spot recently.

[Captain James]

8 hours ago, skinny21 said:

Foster needs to be benched.  No hate for the guy, but it’s way too easy to pick on him when he’s doing anything but attacking the LOS (and it’s a run play up the gut).

He's our new Reed Doughty. Love these guys, but...Come On Man!

[lavar1156]

Spaight was better than Foster. I never understood why we let him go. I liked him.

[skinny21]

On 12/4/2018 at 7:40 AM, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Unfortunately by the time some help comes behind them, they won’t be on rookie deals anymore.

This is my fear.  One of them anyway.

 

If we re-sign Ioannidis and use the 5th year option on Allen, we’d have 3 more years with these four (including Payne and Settle) while only paying one big money.  

 

Of course, I don’t see Ioannidis re-signing if our offense continues to look this poor next year... unless maybe we draft a qb that at least gives us some promise for the near future (2-4 years).  

On 12/4/2018 at 7:52 AM, Capt'n Obvious said:

 

Agreed. Edge rushers have been way too inconsistent, linebackers are either slow or lack awareness, and the secondary is a mess.

 

Interior line has provided at least some reason for optimism although getting gashed consistently with the run the last few weeks has dimmed that bright spot recently.

Pretty much.  

 

Crazy to me that we intentionally lost two starting corners last offseason.  I think we’re seeing our pass rush suffer for it.  Even crazier considering the year before we let two starting receivers walk and paid for it.  Sure, we lost Galette too (and Lanier, which is interesting), but we were getting a lot of pressure last year without him in the game. 

 

 

 

There’s a bit of hope here too though, IMO.  Our corners are getting some valuable experience (even Alexander got in the game yesterday) and they - Stroman, Moreau, Johnson and Alexander - are ridiculously young.  If we offload Norman (and maybe add a talented corner), we ought to see improvement back there.  In which case, we’re left trying to find an ILB.  I’d love to see SDH get in the game to get experience, but we should still hope to land a talented ILB in the draft.  We need someone that can make a difference on outside runs and in the screen game.  Shore up those two weaknesses and improve at corner, and I think we’d see this defense play more consistently like the flashes of good play we’ve seen from them.  

 

Hard to have faith in any of that - between luck, injury and the FO ignoring or even seemingly sabotaging positions - but it feels like a couple/few weak links are the root of our problems on D.  In short, I think the D’s problems could be fixed (or at least greatly improved) in a pretty short timeframe, and I think limiting those problems could lead to a legitimate turnaround in performance.  

 

Right now though, they need to put Vigil or SDH in for Foster, IMO.  Might be worse (somehow), but you gotta take the chance.  

[Capt'n Obvious]

37 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

 

Crazy to me that we intentionally lost two starting corners last offseason.  I think we’re seeing our pass rush suffer for it.  Even crazier considering the year before we let two starting receivers walk and paid for it.  Sure, we lost Galette too (and Lanier, which is interesting), but we were getting a lot of pressure last year without him in the game. 

 

 

 

 

 

This is where I can't decide if this is the coaching staff telling the front office that their scheme can produce regardless of talent. Or if its the front office trying to scrape the bottom of the barrel and hoping it pays off. 

 

Willingly parting with talent and then not at least getting replacement level is one of the many reasons the FO in its current construction needs to be blown up.

[skinny21]

2 hours ago, Capt'n Obvious said:

 

This is where I can't decide if this is the coaching staff telling the front office that their scheme can produce regardless of talent. Or if its the front office trying to scrape the bottom of the barrel and hoping it pays off. 

 

Willingly parting with talent and then not at least getting replacement level is one of the many reasons the FO in its current construction needs to be blown up.

I hear you, but when Manusky was brought in, corner was one of the positions he pointed out as being so important - can’t have enough good corners, or something like that.  As for receivers, I think Jay highly valued Jackson and Garçon.  So for me, it feels like more of a FO deal.  

 

 

On a random side note - it would be fascinating if we draft a qb with the comp pick we got from Cousins leaving.  

[method man]

The more I think about it, this offseason is the time to move over full time to a 4-3. We really are set up to do so. I would go with the following setup:

 

RDE: ??? (More on Ion in a minute, should let Smith go in order to get a comp pick)

DT: Payne / Settle

DT: Allen
LDE: Kerrigan / Anderson

 

SLB: Zach Brown

MLB: Reuben Foster (if he isn't suspended) / Vigil / SDH

WLB: ??? (maybe Harvey-Clemons) - this tends to be someone who is 230ish and can cover well

 

CB1: ???

CB2: Dunbar

Nickel: Moreau

FS: Nicholson

SS: Swearinger

 

It is clear Norman is not worth $15M/yr anymore. The upcoming FA market is light in terms of finding a #1 corner. I would push to trade Ion for Jalen Ramsey, who seems to have fallen out of favor in Jacksonville. Although Ngakkoue is a beast, Malik Jackson's play has fallen off a cliff. We are not going to be able to afford Ion long term once Payne and Allen are up for extensions so we should try to get value for him now.

 

I would let both Clinton-Dix and Smith leave to get comp picks. They will be overpaid for the type of performance they have brought to the table.

 

It is worth noting that given so many teams have switched to a 3-4, it is cheaper to maintain a quality 4-3 defense. As you guys see above, 2 potential holes are a starting RDE and starting WLB. Fortunately, the supply for these roles really outpaces the demand so it is not going to be the hardest thing in the world to find cost effective solutions for both roles

 

 

 

 

 

[bird_1972]

Our D-line has increasingly looked middle of the pack as the season has gone on.

 

We don't look dominant at all. 

 

AND we can't get to the QB. That's the whole point of a dominant DL.

[Vanguard]

12 hours ago, SkinsGuy said:

 

Yes, Ioannidis was inactive last night (along with Dunbar) due to injury

 

I like Dunbar, he's probably better than Norman.  You think?  I mean Norman has played better recently, though.  But I digress.

[OVCChairman]

11 hours ago, Vanguard said:

 

I like Dunbar, he's probably better than Norman.  You think?  I mean Norman has played better recently, though.  But I digress.

 

Norman has played with higher RISK lately which has turned into a couple turnovers.  I still saw him giving up first downs and struggling to stop the WR with the ball in their hands this past sunday.  He got absolutely abused by Jefferies if i'm not mistaken to give up a key 1st down on 3rd and long.  Then had that same face he makes when he knows he messed up but he wants to look mad so nobody will ask him about it.  

[Skinsinparadise]

 

Feels that way too -- I think they have to be close to the bottom in the league in 3rd down defense.  Jay talked about it some too about how they have to improve 3rd down defense.

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

37 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

Then had that same face he makes when he knows he messed up but he wants to look mad so nobody will ask him about it.  

I knew exactly what you were talking about and think the same every time I see it.  Acts mad, like the receiver got away with something, rather than accept being owned.

[OVCChairman]

9 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I knew exactly what you were talking about and think the same every time I see it.  Acts mad, like the receiver got away with something, rather than accept being owned.

 

 

I don't think I've EVER seen him look at his teammates and pat his chest to say "that one was on me."  

[Anselmheifer]

On 12/5/2018 at 8:01 AM, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Feels that way too -- I think they have to be close to the bottom in the league in 3rd down defense.  Jay talked about it some too about how they have to improve 3rd down defense.

 

 

 

This has to be coaching, right? Does anyone here not think that Greg Williams or some similarly solid DC wouldn't have our guys tackling? 

 

Also, I am curious how the defense would look if we let Norman and Smith go and signed Jadaveon Clowney. 

[Skinsinparadise]

7 hours ago, Anselmheifer said:

 

This has to be coaching, right? Does anyone here not think that Greg Williams or some similarly solid DC wouldn't have our guys tackling? 

 

Also, I am curious how the defense would look if we let Norman and Smith go and signed Jadaveon Clowney. 

 

A lot of beating up I notice about Zach Brown from beat guys.  Russell and Hoffman both said the coaching staff is very frustrated about his play.  Some also beating up Haha Clinton-Dix -- I recall reading when he was traded here different GB reporters beating him up for being inconsistent and a bad tackler -- with some here on the board responding that its not true and just bitter grapes from the GB media -- but according to some who cover this team, Dix has been bad and it hasn't gone unnoticed. 

[skinny21]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

A lot of beating up I notice about Zach Brown from beat guys.  Russell and Hoffman both said the coaching staff is very frustrated about his play.  Some also beating up Haha Clinton-Dix -- I recall reading when he was traded here different GB reporters beating him up for being inconsistent and a bad tackler -- with some here on the board responding that its not true and just bitter grapes from the GB media -- but according to some who cover this team, Dix has been bad and it hasn't gone unnoticed. 

I don’t really have an opinion of Dix in his time here, but I imagine generally poor play from the backers and corners makes life tougher on safeties... particularly for someone that is still adjusting to a new system.  

[JSSkinz]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

A lot of beating up I notice about Zach Brown from beat guys.  Russell and Hoffman both said the coaching staff is very frustrated about his play.  Some also beating up Haha Clinton-Dix -- I recall reading when he was traded here different GB reporters beating him up for being inconsistent and a bad tackler -- with some here on the board responding that its not true and just bitter grapes from the GB media -- but according to some who cover this team, Dix has been bad and it hasn't gone unnoticed. 

It was hard to see the deficiency in tackling when he got here because he had 24 tackles in his first 3 games with us.

 

I think he played well and graded well against the Texans but he's played poorly in the last 2 games.

 

I actually posted the link to that GB media person who did the 32 cut-ups showing the poor effort when he was in Green Bay, I watched a bunch of them and he seemed to be spot on in his analysis but I'm no film expert.

[Skinsinparadise]

5 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

It was hard to see the deficiency in tackling when he got here because he had 24 tackles in his first 3 games with us.

 

I think he played well and graded well against the Texans but he's played poorly in the last 2 games.

 

I actually posted the link to that GB media person who did the 32 cut-ups showing the poor effort when he was in Green Bay, I watched a bunch of them and he seemed to be spot on in his analysis but I'm no film expert.

 

Ironically PFF didn't love Zach last year but they do love him this year.  Seems like the team is the reverse.  Just listened to Cooley who also said he hasn't played hot.  I don't get the impression listening to the beat guys that they've liked Zach until recently.  Russell said the other night he hears that they have had enough because he's so wildly inconsistent.  I noticed Cooley is beating up on Clinton-Dix, too.  Personally I haven't watched either closely to have a hard opinion on them

[Malapropismic Depository]

Funny that some people were once calling this defense the 85 Bears or the 00 Ravens.

On 12/4/2018 at 12:11 AM, skinny21 said:

Foster needs to be benched.  No hate for the guy, but it’s way too easy to pick on him when he’s doing anything but attacking the LOS (and it’s a run play up the gut).

 

On 12/4/2018 at 9:05 AM, CaptainJames2004 said:

He's our new Reed Doughty. Love these guys, but...Come On Man!

 

Or is Foster our new Will Compton ?

[skinny21]

9 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

Funny that some people were once calling this defense the 85 Bears or the 00 Ravens.

 

 

Or is Foster our new Will Compton ?

Feel like Foster is a little better attacking the line, but yes - they’re both fairly smart, athletically limited guys.  Lack the speed to keep up with faster players and get out to the flat, and they aren’t stack and shed type of thumpers.    There’s more, but those are my basic thoughts. 

[skinsfan35yrs.]

On 12/4/2018 at 7:40 AM, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Unfortunately by the time some help comes behind them, they won’t be on rookie deals anymore.

yeah thats one of the biggest problems we have on this team, the out of sync cycle both on defense and offense whether is by age, injury or contracts. We fill one whole another opens. Fill that hole and still another one opens . One year the offense is OK but crap defense and by the time the D gets ok the offense goes to crap. and so on and so on and so on. 

[skinsfan35yrs.]

On 12/1/2018 at 7:09 PM, Anselmheifer said:

 

Watch the play at 2:53. I have mixed feelings about Foster. Most of me hates it. I also think he's had too many infractions to pull his head out of his ***. But, if he did get his head together, is there any team with more talent up the middle than Payne, Ioannidis, Allen, Swearinger, Clinton Dix, and Foster? They could be a pass rusher and CB away from a once in a decade defense. And a Defensive coordinator. 

 

Also, am I the only one that thinks this could have been a great defensive unit this year under a great defensive coordinator? We HAVE to make a change at that spot next year. 

have to disagree about Clinton Dix at this point. . Now I dont know if its the scheme or if what we have is the reason GB let him go. I was reservedly excited when we picked him up But I have not been impressed with him since he started playing.

[JSSkinz]

This will help