Is this the most talented yet misused defensive front we've had in years?

[Warhead36]

On 11/23/2018 at 10:19 PM, volsmet said:

We have no explosive play makers, that’s why I preferred Derwin to Payne, but I do love Da’Ron. 

 

Allen, Payne, Matt, & Settle will be as good an interior as anyone in the nfl has heading into 2019, but we need significant upgrades at FS, #1 cb, ilb & Edge. Imo. 

 

I don’t think we are much better than whoever the worst team in the nfl is, we kept finding ways to move down in the draft, but yesterday, Tim Settle salvaged the season for me. That’s what you hope a top 3 pick looks like. That’s what Solomon Thomas was supposed to look like, but 20lbs heavier. If I could start a team with any player on the field yesterday, it would be Tim Settle. Looking at the players as if they had no history, Tim Settle was the one guy who could wreck a game plan by himself. That was the most impressive DT play I’ve seen in Washington in 25 years. That was absolutely astonishing to see. I can’t believe there isn’t more excitement here, he is the talk of many around the NFL today. The “holy ....” moments were noticed around the league, as was the transformation of his body. 

 

I’m going to have to gif it for the board, the ES family deserves something to be excited about and I, unknowingly, broke a rule....I need to make up fer it. 

 

I want to go 4-3 full time next year with Settle and Payne inside and Allen and Ion at DE.

[mistertim]

5 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

I want to go 4-3 full time next year with Settle and Payne inside and Allen and Ion at DE.

 

Why? Neither Allen nor Ioan have the speed and flexibility to be multi-purpose run stopping + pass rushing full time 4-3 DEs. They're ideally suited for exactly where they are. I remember watching Allen play some 5 tech DE when Alabama went with a 4-3 or 3-4 Under look on passing downs and he was noticeably less effective than when he was playing 3 tech. He doesn't have the bend or first step to get outside on the edge and consistently got stonewalled by decent Tackles when pass rushing from that position. 

 

We finally have the horses to run a top notch 3-4 front and now people want to change back?

[volsmet]

36 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I want to go 4-3 full time next year with Settle and Payne inside and Allen and Ion at DE.

 

Ion & Allen aren’t 4-3 DEs. If Settle is 85% of what he showed on Thursday, then we will have the best interior DL in the NFL, but none of those guys can get up the field & bend around an offensive tackle. Payne & Ion had nearly identical combine numbers, they can each play anywhere in a 3-4, but only one is really suited to play NT, and that’s Settle, who, like Payne, Matt, & Allen, is better in a 1 gap, get up the field scheme than a 2 gap, hold up & shed scheme. 

 

I find it nearly impossible to overstate how dominant Settle was on Thursday. There are NFL scouts, in real life, who thought him the most impressive performer in the whole of the nfl this weekend. His ability to obliterate a guards balance, with jabs to the shoulder, put guys on skates. Even on snaps where he wasn’t particularly quick at the snap, he made grown men look like small children. He gifted Preston a sack, he annihilated double teams, he was nearly impressive enough to render hyperbole useless, (I say hyperbolically); for one day, our 5th round rookie was the envy of the rest of the league.

 

We need someone on the edge, we need a complement to the young bulls in the middle, playing next to these guys will be very attractive to free agents, should we go that route. 

 

Foster (Reuben), if he’s cleared & healthy, along with the development of Settle, will put us am elite DE from being absolutely terrifying up front. Perhaps what big Tim did was an aberration, but if it’s not, we have something we have searched decades for....Albert, Dana, etc etc etc. .. Tim was, for limited snaps, in one game, what we had been unable to find. 

 

The NFL is a nickel/dime game, as you know, 3-4 v 4-3 isn’t all that important, but we can line up those 4 - together at times - and all but eliminate Elliot & Barkley if we have Reuben behind them. 

 

Reuben & Settle Could be like adding two top 10 picks....in November. 

[Alexa]

We still don't have the LB's for a 3-4. Not one of them are playmakers. Mason Foster in space looks like a slow turtle. 

[mistertim]

45 minutes ago, Alexa said:

We still don't have the LB's for a 3-4. Not one of them are playmakers. Mason Foster in space looks like a slow turtle. 

 

Right now we don't have the LBs for a 3-4 OR a 4-3. Foster is slow and is out of place way too often. Brown has great athleticism and speed but IMO he doesn't have the best instincts and football IQ. He hasn't been nearly the factor that I hoped he would become. We desperately need speed at LB...both ILB and as a pass rushing OLB. 

 

[NickyJ]

Just saw this stat. Extremely depressing.

 

 

 

[volsmet]

1 hour ago, NickyJ said:

Just saw this stat. Extremely depressing.

 

 

 

 

One of the more grotesque stats I’ve ever seen. 

[MartinC]

22 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

I want to go 4-3 full time next year with Settle and Payne inside and Allen and Ion at DE.

 

Allen is a stud 5 tech who can also play 3 tech in sub. Why would you move him to 7 tech?

 

That's another case of round hole square peg.

[volsmet]

High quality article on what is typically in a defensive front. Who knew Stephen Bowen could be a prototype, not Raheem DeVaughn, I’m guessing. 

 

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/defensive-line-techniques-the-prototypes

 

 

Quote

 

Essentially, the numbering begins from head up over the center, and works its way outward in either direction. Marking each point along the way, each numbered alignment is either head-up over an offensive player or shaded to one shoulder or the other, ready to shoot a gap. So let’s talk about the main techniques used in the NFL and point to a prototype player for each, starting from the middle:
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0-Technique (3-4 NT) – Vince Wilfork

The 0-technique plays head-up over the center, and is responsible for defending both A-gaps (between the guards and the center). His job is to control the center, often draw a double team from a guard, and still be able to prevent the run from going right up the gut. That’s why traditional 3-4 NTs are monsters. Wilfork is listed at 325lbs, but he looks a lot bigger than that, and it’s his sheer size and strength that allows him to anchor inside and control multiple, smaller, blockers at the point of attack.
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With various one-gap 3-4 systems around these days, you find players that play the 0 technique position, but instead of playing both A gaps, they’ll shoot one and rely on linebackers behind them to plug the other. These players rely on speed and athleticism off the ball rather than size and bulk. The Cowboys under Wade Phillips were fond of this type of defense and Jay Ratliff was particularly adept at disrupting plays in the backfield from his NT spot.
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Alternative prototypes: Aubrayo Franklin, Paul Soliai, Sione Pouha
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1-Technique (4-3 NT) – Pat Williams

The 1-technique does much the same as the 0-technique, except he is shaded over the inside shoulder of one of the guards, and is rarely expected to control two gaps. He is, however, expected to command a double team from the center and guard, which frees up other linemen to be one on one with their blockers. Pat Williams has been the prototype for this position for years. Williams was an immovable force in the middle for the Vikings and required two players to try and shift him from the point of attack, leaving Kevin Williams single-blocked by a guard, and allowing linebackers to run free to the ball and make stops close to the line of scrimmage. A good 1-technique DT can dramatically improve an entire run defense, because he makes several players’ jobs much easier.
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Alternative prototypes: Haloti Ngata, Antonio Dixon, Colin Cole
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3-Technique (4-3 Pass Rush Tackle) – Tommy Kelly

Probably the most well known of the defensive techniques, the 3-technique lines up shaded to the guard’s outside shoulder, ready to shoot the B-gap on his side of the formation. Various line shifts and defensive schemes have been developed with the express purpose of getting the 3-technique the most beneficial situation possible, which is why guys like Warren Sapp, John Randle, Keith Millard and now Ndamukong Suh have been able to rack-up sack numbers. The 4-3 Under front, discussed in our article on Hybrid defenses, was designed to isolate the weak side guard 1-on-1 with the 3-technique (or under) tackle. This player’s job is to penetrate the line of scrimmage through his B-gap and disrupt plays in the backfield, whether pass or run. Unlike the first two tackle positions, the 3-technique relies far more on speed and agility than brute strength. Oakland’s Tommy Kelly is arguably the NFL’s prototype for the position. At 6’6 and 300lbs he is quick, nimble and has the kind of burst off the ball that can make it tough for a blocker to recover position.
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Alternative prototypes: Kevin Williams, Shaun Rogers, Kyle Williams
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5-Technique (3-4 DE) – Ty Warren

Much like the 0-technique, the traditional 5-technique is a two-gap player, lining up directly over the offensive tackle, he is responsible for the B and C gaps on his side of the formation. He has to be able to stack tall offensive tackles and shed blocks to make the stop in either of his gaps. Nose tackles rely largely on their mass to control blockers and gaps, but defensive ends from the 5-technique have to be able to handle offensive tackles, who have grown into man mountains over the past decades. This is why part of the scouting profile for these players isn’t just size, but ‘length’ (height and arm length combined).
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Though he has seen his game time curtailed over the past few seasons through injury and the ever increasing use of sub-packages in nickel and dime situations, the prototype NFL 5-technique player remains former Patriot Ty Warren. Warren is quite possibly the NFL’s best run stuffer from the 3-4 DE spot and he has the prototypical length (6’5) and size (300+lbs) that teams look for.
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You might ask why I’m not listing Justin Smith, a player we regard as clearly the best 3-4 end in football, in this spot. The answer is because Smith often doesn’t play the traditional 5-technique in the 49ers’ defense, and does much of his damage inside as a DT in their sub packages (in more of a 3-technique role), and often knifes into gaps while shaded slightly to either side of the tackle (in more a 4 or 6-technique). He is certainly well capable of playing the 5, and would be a perfectly reasonable example, but if coaches were drawing up a player for the traditional 2-gap 5-technique role, he would look like Ty Warren.
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Alternative prototypes: Stephen Bowen, Kendall Langford, Shaun Smith
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7 & 6-Techniques (4-3 DLE) – Ray Edwards

The 7-technique is often used by 4-3 teams on the left side of the defense as the run-stuffing, power end. He lines up in the gap between the RT and the TE (if there is one on that side of the formation) and is just as often playing the 6-technique depending on how the offense lines up. He’s usually responsible for setting the edge in the run game, but is also expected to be able to beat the RT for pressure in the passing game, or force his way inside the TE to do the same. Because they’re often forced to fight through a double team or at least a chip from the TE, and they face the ‘power’ right tackle, the 6 or 7-technique DE is usually a more powerful player than the speed rushing DRE, and almost always a better run defender.
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Ray Edwards is the prototype for this type of player. Edwards is a strong run defender who has enough pass rushing skills to be able to beat his man with speed or power. There are better run defenders as 4-3 DEs in the NFL, but they just don’t happen to play the 6 or 7-technique much. Other players you could make a case for being the prototype here would be Trent Cole and Terrell Suggs. Both players play on the right side of their formations, but they often line up just outside of the tackle and rely on strength and leverage to be exceptional run defenders.
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Alternative prototypes: Terrell Suggs, Trent Cole, Juqua Parker
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9-Technique (4-3 DRE) – Dwight Freeney

The 9-technique is the speed rushing defensive end, and aside from a few defenses in the NFL, is often used more in obvious pass-rushing situations than as an every down alignment, such is the size of the gap left between the DRE and anybody else inside him. The 9-technique lines up well outside the offensive tackle, and outside even the tight end if there is one on that side of the formation. If there isn’t a tight end there, the alignment can look almost comical with the defensive end maintaining width to be able to attack the passer. Dwight Freeney is the NFL’s prototype player from this technique. Freeney has the speed to beat anybody around the edge and the low center of gravity to be able to dip his shoulder and turn the corner on much taller offensive tackles. The width that he aligns at often forces the tackle to panic and over commit to the edge rush, allowing Freeney to spin back inside to a gaping hole.
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Alternative prototypes: Jason Babin, Kyle Vanden Bosch, Chris Clemons

 

 

[Anselmheifer]

Can anyone else comment on how Settle looked during the last game? I've seen one raving review. I haven't seen the game and don't really want to suffer through it. 

[RandyHolt]

I wonder how long we will stick with the 3-4. Because Mike liked it.

 

At least we are drafting DL with top picks, in recent years. While some may argue its by design, I feel like our run D has been slowly getting gashed more and more.... and this with knock on wood a fairly healthy lineup.  We can blame Manusky, but our defense has pretty much sucked since long before he got here.

 

I assume more college Ds use 3-4 than ever before, but not long ago, players like Kerrigan had to be projected as to how they would play as a backer including in pass coverage duties, because colleges largely ran 4-3s.

 

We are in nickel most of the time anyways, so isn't the 3-4 basically a charade at this point??

[mistertim]

19 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

I wonder how long we will stick with the 3-4. Because Mike liked it.

 

At least we are drafting DL with top picks, in recent years. While some may argue its by design, I feel like our run D has been slowly getting gashed more and more.... and this with knock on wood a fairly healthy lineup.  We can blame Manusky, but our defense has pretty much sucked since long before he got here.

 

I assume more college Ds use 3-4 than ever before, but not long ago, players like Kerrigan had to be projected as to how they would play as a backer including in pass coverage duties, because colleges largely ran 4-3s.

 

We are in nickel most of the time anyways, so isn't the 3-4 basically a charade at this point??

 

I don't think the 3-4 is a "charade" as a general defensive alignment, but I do think that the static notions of a 3-4 and 4-3 that most fans have aren't nearly as relevant in the pros as they were in years past. It's a passing league now so very often teams spend plenty of time in nickel and other various packages (as you noted). Teams don't generally run what would be considered "classic" 3-4 defenses nowadays, where you have 3 pure space eaters who are always 2 gapping and your LBs always flow downhill to the ball, except in certain situations that warrant that sort of specific alignment. You see us in what appears to be a 4-3 alignment sometimes (though it's usually more of a 3-4 Under or a 5-2). 

 

As far as college goes I think it's much more variable and much more aligned with a defensive coordinator's specific style and taste since the types of offenses they'll be facing are so varied as is the talent on their opponent's roster. 

[MartinC]

1 hour ago, RandyHolt said:

 

 

We are in nickel most of the time anyways, so isn't the 3-4 basically a charade at this point??

 

I have been saying the same thing in these kind of threads for years.

 

NFL offenses are in 3 wide on over 60% of snaps - so NFL defenses are in sub packages for over 60% of snaps. When you then factor in short yardage and goalline NFL offenses are in base typically on only around 15% of snaps.

45 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I don't think the 3-4 is a "charade" as a general defensive alignment, but I do think that the static notions of a 3-4 and 4-3 that most fans have aren't nearly as relevant in the pros as they were in years past. It's a passing league now so very often teams spend plenty of time in nickel and other various packages (as you noted). Teams don't generally run what would be considered "classic" 3-4 defenses nowadays, where you have 3 pure space eaters who are always 2 gapping and your LBs always flow downhill to the ball, except in certain situations that warrant that sort of specific alignment. You see us in what appears to be a 4-3 alignment sometimes (though it's usually more of a 3-4 Under or a 5-2). 

 

100%

 

If I drew up a 3-4 front and a 4-3 under front and did not label the positions it would be identical. Only difference is you have one more guy with his hand in the dirt in the 4-3 front. There can be many different responsibilities between the schemes though once the ball is snapped.

 

We also run a lot of one gap as well even in base.

[RandyHolt]

We neeeeeeeeeeed a 360 pound NT!!!1!

 

No, we don't, actually.  Any team seeing one now likely just goes to hurry up until they lay on the field, gasping for air.

 

What we need is an accurate way to state what a defense is, here in the year 2018.  Saying we are a 3-4 is so.... dated. Its all about what defense we are in for what % of snap counts. Form a name for those grouping of tendencies, and finally start to accurately label defenses for what they are. Now, while that may be a bit complicated to do, and it certainly gets more complex including/tracking what pass coverages we are in, it shouldnt be impossible. Just give us the damn numbers and I will come up with names.  What is the most predominant D regardless of D&D. 

 

Avg Front Shown 6.9

Avg Attacking at Snap / Blitz 4.1

Press Man 17%

Off Man 20%

Cover 0  1%

Cover 1 15%

Cover 2  27%

Cover 3  20%

 

Our D is: Show heavy blitz little man/cover 2

 

We hear crazy sounding offensive play calls, occasionally. What are most common defensive play calls in huddles?

 

During games they rarely to never show the top of the stadium camera showing all the DBs and WRs, and analysts largely just focus on the offense.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

MLBs-safeties-Cbs?

 

 

 

[JSSkinz]

 

[Skinsinparadise]

The difference between our defensive front and the Cowboys is  almost night and day.

 

Shows the power of having 2 stud MLbs versus not. 

 

Our defense front is good albeit inconsistent. The Dallas front looks great and are consistent.

 

The D lines are comparable but MLBS no. 

 

I think the MLBs are what separates them.

[bh32]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

The difference between our defensive front and the Cowboys is  almost night and day.

 

Shows the power of having 2 stud MLbs versus not. 

 

Our defense front is good albeit inconsistent. The Dallas front looks great and are consistent.

 

I think the MLBs are what separates them.

It's not just the MLB's..the Redskins just don't fly to the ball like the Cowboys do..Guys are just half ass most of the time and that come back to coaching

[Vanguard]

13 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

The difference between our defensive front and the Cowboys is  almost night and day.

 

Shows the power of having 2 stud MLbs versus not. 

 

Our defense front is good albeit inconsistent. The Dallas front looks great and are consistent.

 

I think the MLBs are what separates them.

 

I wouldn't really say they are more consistent.  I mean they look great tonight, and they're doing what our front couldn't do against New Orleans.  Our D line is better, but like you said their linebackers are tough.

[Commander Wolffe]

They have linebackers with speed. We dont.

[Vanguard]

Mason Foster is definitely on the slow side.

[Skinsinparadise]

22 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

 

I wouldn't really say they are more consistent.  I mean they look great tonight, and they're doing what our front couldn't do against New Orleans.  Our D line is better, but like you said their linebackers are tough.

They dont have games where they get shredded like we do.  They are ranked better in points, yards, against the run and pass.

 

One thing our defense does better is turnovers and that's a big deal. But watching our games this year and just about every Dallas game, to me their defense is clearly better. And yeah I think it's their MLBs. And perhaps Lawrence being unstoppable in some games.

[Capsman]

On 11/27/2018 at 5:26 PM, Warhead36 said:

I want to go 4-3 full time next year with Settle and Payne inside and Allen and Ion at DE.

Makes no difference with Manusky the DC. The best move we can make is to hire a quality DC, no more of these dumpster dive hires.  

[CommanderDOOM]

Rod has two first round talent inside linebackers, d-lawrence gets to QB's and is not bad vs the run, his outside corners are good and they have drafted well for the secondary in general. Plus he is a dline guru. Be glad Gregory and Taco aren't also ballin.....yet

 

We are close. Moreau's taking his lumps this year but has the talent to be really good. Our dline is looking very prominsing, and we have some a nice safety tandem now. If our linebacker situations fall right look out.

[RandyHolt]

10 hours ago, bh32 said:

It's not just the MLB's..the Redskins just don't fly to the ball like the Cowboys do..Guys are just half ass most of the time and that come back to coaching

 

I think it's largely play calling. Sure we want a faster foster but whatevs - it wasn't a problem earlier in the year.

 

Because of our non explosive offense, Manusky is not dialing up the aggressiveness. In pretty much all areas. He needs to slow play to keep all games bordering on unders to give our feeble wet noodle offense a chance. It doesn't help that Jay ALWAYS slow plays his offense. I think the offense dictates what Manusky does.

 

We have all seen pressing and pressuring WRs and QB can make an explosive offense wilt. It's not rocket science, its high risk high reward. I love an aggressive D, and hate seeing the Carlos cushion the entire game, including on that fateful 4th qtr play when we need a stop. When the top teams are posting 50 points anyways, why not try and squash them proper.  I know, we don't want to get blown out in the first quarter, but its a risk a DC has to take sometimes.

 

The biggest issue with a soft read react and get run over pliable D, is it wastes the natural talents of most everyone on defense. Is it easier to tackle Kamara in the backfield, or in the open field. When making your D face a ton of plays, the chances for mistakes, increase. With fatigue, come even more mistakes. D players are aggressive by nature, its what defenses do. Neuter the aggression, and you neuter your defense. Maybe they did that in Bama but I doubt it. What GM has ever targeted passive defensive players? 

 

**** Dallas.