Miami Herald: I’m done trying to understand Trump supporters. Why don’t they try to understand me?

[TradeTheBeal!]

She’ll be in the cabinet by Tuesday.

[Renegade7]

N/M wrong thread

Edited March 27, 2020 by Renegade7

[88Comrade2000]

48 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

She’ll be in the cabinet by Tuesday.

Oh no, if that happens; Hope Hicks would have competition to be wife #4.

[LD0506]

[LD0506]

Quote

I recently spoke with Steven Hassan about Trump's death cult and the power the president has over his followers. Hassan also explains how Trump resembles notorious cult leader Jim Jones and why Trump's followers remain in love with him even as his decisions are literally making them sick. Hassan also explains how Fox News and other parts of the right-wing disinformation machine are key elements of Trump's mind control powers over his political cult.

 

https://www.salon.com/2020/04/07/cult-expert-steven-hassan-trumps-mind-control-cult-now-faces-an-existential-crisis/?fbclid=IwAR0IQxOzktk9b55WL0lyrMagZPzwzlfDuWCYWeZW74AiqxV050URxJMO3PE

[Larry]

Noticing lots of folks wailing about how the country has been overrun by stupid, over in the virus thread.  Wanted to respond, but thought it belonged here better than there.  

 

There's an element that I've seen myself, and have seen referenced in many different ways.  I think one of the best descriptions I've heard of it, was one of the first references I heard.  

 

It was early in the Trump administration, and reporter was interviewing a guest, and the question boils down to "How does Trump convince a whole lot of poor people, many of them on welfare, to vote for someone when one of the main elements of his campaign is promising to gut those same programs that those voters depend on?"  

 

For me to paraphrase it, how do you get dirt poor West Virginia voters to vote for somebody who wants to cut welfare?  

 

And the surveyor said that well, a lot of those people, they have this mental image of people on welfare.  The mental image is that they're black, inner city, and they're too lazy to work, and all they do is sit around and have babies whenever they want a welfare increase.  And they know that hey, I'm on welfare, too.  But me, I want to work.  If the coal mine that left town 10 years ago would come back and start paying me $25/hour plus benefits, again, I'd be right there to get my old job back.  So I'm not like those other people who are on welfare.  

 

And those people are willing to vote to cut welfare.  Knowing that it will hurt them.  Because they figure it will hurt them"other" welfare leaches worse.  

 

These voters are literally willing to vote to hurt themselves, because they think it will hurt somebody else worse.  

 

Now, back to my point about the people claiming that the country has been overrun by stupid:  

 

That's not stupid.  That's evil.  Literally harming yourself, because you think it will hurt somebody who's worse off than you are.  (And different in other ways.  Like race.)  

 

Supporting disenfranchisement?  That's not stupid. That's evil.  

 

Supporting acquitting Donald Trump for admitting that he extorted a foreign campaign contribution?  That's not stupid.  That's evil.  

 

Claiming that we should do nothing about a disease that's killing thousands of people, because (insert one of several obviously dishonest "reasons")?  That's evil.  

[Die Hard]

19 minutes ago, Larry said:

That's not stupid.  That's evil.  Literally harming yourself, because you think it will hurt somebody who's worse off than you are.  (And different in other ways.  Like race.)  

 

Supporting disenfranchisement?  That's not stupid. That's evil.  

 

Supporting acquitting Donald Trump for admitting that he extorted a foreign campaign contribution?  That's not stupid.  That's evil.  

 

Claiming that we should do nothing about a disease that's killing thousands of people, because (insert one of several obviously dishonest "reasons")?  That's evil.  

 

I don’t think it’s ‘evil’. That term in itself, repeats the cycle. It’s no different than the prejudice (self-righteousness) that ‘they’ have for others (the lazy leechers).

 

What it is, is destructive/toxic. And it’s the result of the psychological pattern of ‘judgment’. Playing God.

 

But we’re all guilty of it, just to varying degrees at various times. Because it’s completely natural.

 

For every osteoclast, there’s an osteoblast (yin and yang).

Edited April 10, 2020 by Die Hard

[Nerm]

19 minutes ago, Larry said:

And those people are willing to vote to cut welfare.  Knowing that it will hurt them.  Because they figure it will hurt them"other" welfare leaches worse.  

 

These voters are literally willing to vote to hurt themselves, because they think it will hurt somebody else worse.  

 

 

I don't think I have ever met someone who thinks like that.  There are a number of assumptions being made in that analysis that show a fundamental difference in beliefs about what helps or hurts people.  There are a lot of people out there that feel that taking money from other people, against their will, and giving it to someone else is wrong... even if they would come out ahead personally.  Others may feel that such programs should come from the state and local levels instead of the federal level.  Some feel that giving money to people will "trap" people into perpetual dependence.  You are making the assumption that these voters really believe that welfare is a good thing that helps people.  That is not a universally accepted truth.  For people who think that welfare is a trap, they view progressive voters as the ones who are willing to sacrifice their wellbeing as long as someone who is successful has to sacrifice more.

 

Please note, I do not have any interest in defending the validity or reasoning behind various beliefs people have.  But, as the theme of this thread is about not understanding Trump voters, I think you have to start with the premise that they don't secretly think the policies they oppose are actually good for the people of the country.  One of the fundamental skills in being able to "understand" the other side in politics is to be able articulate their reasons for supporting a position, or person, in a way that they would agree with, even if you don't think those reasons are valid.

 

I don't know if you could find anyone who would say "welfare helps me, but I want it cut because someone else would be hurt by the cut more than I would."

[Larry]

52 minutes ago, Die Hard said:

I don’t think it’s ‘evil’. That term in itself, repeats the cycle. It’s no different than the prejudice (self-righteousness) that ‘they’ have for others (the lazy leechers).

 

What it is, is destructive/toxic. And it’s the result of the psychological pattern of ‘judgment’. Playing God.

 

1)  Evil exists.  And yes, deriving so much pleasure out of harming somebody else, that you're willing to harm yourself to do it, deserves that label.  

 

2)  And deciding that something is evil is neither Wrong nor "playing God".  

3 minutes ago, Nerm said:

they view progressive voters as the ones who are willing to sacrifice their wellbeing as long as someone who is successful has to sacrifice more.

 

Funny.  I have never met a single person who thinks that making someone who is successful sacrifice is a goal, in and of itself.  (Although I do confess that there's a few posters in here who do express ideas that could be exaggerated that way.  At least in the neighborhood.)  

 

I've met lots of people who think that there's something that needs money spent on, and that taxing the rich is the least unfair way to accomplish that unpleasant task.  But it's a means, not an end.  

 

[Die Hard]

2 hours ago, Larry said:

 

1)  Evil exists.  And yes, deriving so much pleasure out of harming somebody else, that you're willing to harm yourself to do it, deserves that label.  

 

2)  And deciding that something is evil is neither Wrong nor "playing God".  

 

Evil is merely a word. An abstract human concept.construct. It’s not tangible. It exists only in thought form. And only in humankind. 

- And keep in mind, Republicans also think homosexuality, non-Christians, democrats, welfare, etc.  are evil too. 

- Cutting off your nose to spite your face, even if it means self-sacrifice, is nothing more than a strategy. Attrition warfare. And they have guns... which is why they feel pretty good about that strategy.

- Republicans, trying to undermine democracy and suppress voting, to maintain power (authoritarian) is not evil. It’s just a strategy in a game of power (political, economic, social, etc)

 

- It can be effective. Very effective. At destruction (of form, structures, etc). But it’s all apart of the fabric of life. And we have the scars and wounds of our history to prove it. Heck, even playing guitar..... you can’t have the music without the friction of the strings..... and that’s going to make some callouses.

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Die Hard

[88Comrade2000]

For West Virginia, it’s true for many.

[Nerm]

18 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

Funny.  I have never met a single person who thinks that making someone who is successful sacrifice is a goal, in and of itself.  (Although I do confess that there's a few posters in here who do express ideas that could be exaggerated that way.  At least in the neighborhood.)  

 

I've met lots of people who think that there's something that needs money spent on, and that taxing the rich is the least unfair way to accomplish that unpleasant task.  But it's a means, not an end.  

 

 

I agree that almost nobody would endorse the goal of "punishing the rich" as a primary reason for progressive policies.  But, that is how a lot of conservatives view it.  It shows a fundamental lack of understanding of beliefs of progressives.  The tendency to distort the reasoning of people who disagree with us politically into a unreasonable strawman argument is one of the core issues that fuels political divisions.  In my opinion.

 

On a side note, I have met one person who seems like they might fit into the "punish the rich at all costs" stereotype.  When I was an undergrad in the mid 90s, my intro to philosophy teacher was pretty extreme.  I remember there were wildfires that swept through part of California where some of the most expensive neighborhoods in the state were.  The philosophy professor went on and on about how happy he was that these people had to face adversity.  It genuinely brought him joy to think about these people he had never met loosing their possessions and being in distress.

[LD0506]

[Larry]

1 hour ago, Nerm said:

On a side note, I have met one person who seems like they might fit into the "punish the rich at all costs" stereotype.  When I was an undergrad in the mid 90s, my intro to philosophy teacher was pretty extreme.  I remember there were wildfires that swept through part of California where some of the most expensive neighborhoods in the state were.  The philosophy professor went on and on about how happy he was that these people had to face adversity.  It genuinely brought him joy to think about these people he had never met loosing their possessions and being in distress.

 

When the dot com bubble burst, I remember one pundit saying that a lot of dot com yuppies were being introduced to an investment term that they'd never heard before.  

 

Risk.  

 

 

[TradeTheBeal!]

Here is a picture of “coronovirus hoax” protestors taken at the Ohio Statehouse.  Provide additional commentary if you like.

 

 

[Captain Wiggles]

"Brains.... Brains.... we have no brains. "

 

[Renegade7]

7 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Here is a picture of “coronovirus hoax” protestors taken at the Ohio Statehouse.  Provide additional commentary if you like.

 

 

My response:

 

"Shhh...its okay...it will all be over soon."

 

 

[TradeTheBeal!]

4 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

My response:

 

"Shhh...its okay...it will all be over soon."

 

 

 

 

[Jumbo]

the state of the right vs left in recent times strikes me as more like neanderthals vs cro-magnons than republicans vs democrats

[Bang]

So many problems could be fixed with one well placed hand grenade.

 

~Boom

[Mr. Sinister]

Born in lust, turn to dust 

[skinsmarydu]

I'll just throw a bit of free (I didn't want to have this kind of) knowledge: in GA, after your second kid, there's no more "welfare" for the 3rd kid. SNAP, yes. WIC, yes. But there's no bump in general "I can't pay my bills" money. 

[LD0506]

16 hours ago, Bang said:

So many problems could be fixed with one well placed hand grenade.

 

~Boom

 

Rookie mistake, grenades aren't that effective.....

 

Now a claymore

 

[LD0506]

[Larry]

21 hours ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Here is a picture of “coronovirus hoax” protestors taken at the Ohio Statehouse.  Provide additional commentary if you like.

 

Was just thinking.  (Which is almost always dangerous.)  

 

I have heard the claim made that, according to the NCIS, the FBI's national crime information database, of all the people shot in the US, 98% of them survived.  

 

Which would mean that COVID is "only" as lethal as getting shot.  2% chance of death.  

 

And every one of those protesters is perfectly willing for people to accept a 2% chance of death, for their "freedom".  

 

So, it's kinda like every one of them has consented to getting shot.  For their cause.