Voice_of_Reason

Evaluating Jay Gruden in 2018

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20 hours ago, skins4eva said:

 

No one is going anywhere, and even if they did, what would change?  There's nothing in Snyder's 20 year track record as owner of this team to show that he is capable of making sound football decisions.

Except the stadium is emptying making HIM look bad (Again) and his profit from the stadium is being effected. Thats how Vinny was let go and Dan was allot closer to Vinny than Bruce or Jay

Edited by The Hangman- C_Hanburger
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29 minutes ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

Except the stadium is emptying making HIM look bad (Again) and his profit from the stadium is being effected. Thats how Vinny was let go and Dan was allot closer to Vinny than Bruce or Jay

I don't know how you know Dan was closer to Vinny than Bruce.  They seem pretty close to me.

 

I think the overall pity of the situation is that there are some good pieces in place, players, coaches and FO folks.  You look at Doug Williams, Kyle Smith in the FO, Tomsula and a few others on the coaching staff, and the team does have a good core group of young players.

 

But what they lack is leadership and direction, that's Bruce first and then Jay.  Unfortunately, I think if Bruce and Jay go, it might be a total blow-up, and good pieces will get scattered.  I don't want that. 

 

Bruce should not be running the football operation, and Jay, well, so far 2018 Jay looks like 2015-2017 Jay, "meh" at best. 

 

 

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I responded to this topic with a knee jerk reaction after the loss to the Colts, wanting everyone fired. But I did some thinking and I realized that JG is just using what he has been given. I am guilty of thinking we have better players than what we actually have, I assume. After approx 10 years of bad drafting, poor GMs, and not the best free agent pickups this is what you get. We did not have a great season last year and to expect a drastic turn around, without adding some key players, is wishful thinking. I still think JG is not a championship coach and he should be replaced at the end of the season if we do not make a playoff run. I would like to see a new coach picked from some successful teams assistants like the OC from the bears.

Edited by 50yrSKINSfan

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33 minutes ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

I responded to this topic with a knee jerk reaction after the loss to the Colts, wanting everyone fired. But I did some thinking and I realized that JG is just using what he has been given. I am guilty of thinking we have better players than what we actually have, I assume. After approx 10 years of bad drafting, poor GMs, and not the best free agent pickups this is what you get. We did not have a great season last year and to expect a drastic turn around, without adding some key players, is wishful thinking. I still think JG is not a championship coach and he should be replaced at the end of the season if we do not make a playoff run. I would like to see a new coach picked from some successful teams assistants like the OC from the bears.

 

Did you mean to say the DC from the Bears?  That front 7 is scary whereas the Bear offense looked like a work in progress Monday night.

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15 hours ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

Did you mean to say the DC from the Bears?  That front 7 is scary whereas the Bear offense looked like a work in progress Monday night.

Hay Old School. Think the guys name is Nagy or something like that. OC I believe. Cheers.

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I am not buying the "talent lack" for this particular team.  What I saw in the Colts game, which a lot of other fans and analysts saw, was no engagement, no "lets kick ass" and build off of last week.  Nope it was an uninspired pile of hot steaming garbage.  None of them were ready mentally for this game.  That first drive by the Colt's said it all. Missed tackles.  The D line was swiss cheese and the LB's were exposed.   

 

J.P. Finley said it the best when he noted NO players were out warming up prior to the game which is what all teams do.  Blah from the beginning.  

 

I don't dislike Gruden as a coach.  But he does not inspire his players.  They are not consistently ready to play.   He is more a players friend. Buddy.  He does not inspire them to give it all on the field.   

 

So whose JOB is it to get a team ready and engaged and fired UP every damn game?  Well the coach if the players can't do it.  Locker room leadership my ass.  If I were Gruden I would  have the practice squad players up there competing.  They have to believe they will be sat every week if they give half ass effort.  

 

And more then anything his play calling is blah.  It is predictable and uninspired.  Every Colt player knew what was coming.  Hell my buddies and I were sitting around in this last one making bets on what he would call.  It was freaking tie.  We all knew. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I've been a Gruden defender, but the Colts game is something that we see too often and is one of the last straws. Our talent certainly isn't worldbeater status, but the Colts were an inferior team and they had their way with us. After re-watching the game, it's obvious that this loss is all on coaching; our scheme and energy was awful. It reminded me of the final game of 2016 vs the Giants, we were playing to get in the playoffs and they were playing for nothing, yet we came out flat and clueless. I could expand on where we went wrong in the Colts game, but you're all already aware.

 

Even after this embarrassment, the issue remains, who would we replace him with? I know plenty of people hate him enough that they'd accept Zorn 2.0, but obviously that wouldn't be best for the franchise. Give me names, give me ideas, the "just fire him" thing is too lazy.

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I've been on the Kirby Smart bandwagon for a long, long time... i'd like to see him get a shot in the NFL... He's just too talented and a student of the game. I have a feeling he would have this defense dominating.

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It shouldn't be the norm that after 3-4 games a season a somber DJ Swearinger (and/or other players) have their heads down, nearly ashamed, at the lack of effort and hard work put in during the week and on game day.  Sorry that is unacceptable and to me it means the coaching is either too lax or they are unable to recognize when the players aren't putting their full effort during practice.

 

And the worst part is, this is Year 5 of Gruden.  Issues like this should have been solved Year 1, where you take over a team, root out all the guys who are lazy, don't work hard, or are not buying into the system.  These kinds of things should not be happening Week 2 of a coach's 5th season.

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I like Jay, and I am brave enough to say it this week -- albeit I blame him heavily on that Colts loss.   I don't think the dude is perfect and I share this complaint with some of Jay's critics which is running so much on first down.  Warren Sharp's book, which I have, studies percentages, and he talks about how running on first down is actually isn't a high percentage success play and some coaches are more guilty than others for stubbornly sticking to doing it anyway.  Jay would certainly be in that group.

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/redskins/are-redskins-running-ball-too-much-first-down

This season, Gruden has leaned heavily towards taking the lower risk, lower reward route of running the ball on first down. The Redskins 39 first-down runs are the most in the NFL, one more than the Texans and considerably more than the NFL average of 27 first-down runs. (The numbers here are from Pro Football Reference and are complete through Sunday’s games.) 

Those are the raw numbers. When you break it down into first-down rush percentage, the Redskins are fifth in the league at 58.2 percent. Still, that leans heavily towards the run in a league that passes on first down (51.7%) more often than it runs (48.3%).

In looking at just 2018 we are dealing with a small sample size. The two Redskins games were very different. In their first game, they never trailed, and runs were called on 69 percent of first down plays (25 of 36). Against the Colts where they never led and ran on 45 percent of first downs (14 of 31). 

Looking at a larger set of data covering games from the start of the 2017 season through Sunday’s game, Gruden called runs on 58.5 percent of first-down plays. That was the fifth-highest percentage in the league. The league average seems to shift to more running as the year wears on as over the last full season plus two games teams ran on first down 52.4 percent of the time. 

Looking at the big picture, you might wonder why Gruden ran it so often on first down last year with such a poor (27thin NFL) rushing game. They averaged 3.16 yards per first down run. That was the worst average in the league.

We will track this occasionally as the year goes on. This year, again a small sample size, they are averaging a respectable 4.3 yards on first-down rushing attempts, 10th in the NFL. Let’s see if the strategy shifts, if the defense adjusts and keys to stop the run on first down, and/or if they are having trouble consistently moving the ball. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise

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On 9/18/2018 at 11:14 AM, Voice_of_Reason said:

I don't know how you know Dan was closer to Vinny than Bruce.  They seem pretty close to me.

 

I think the overall pity of the situation is that there are some good pieces in place, players, coaches and FO folks.  You look at Doug Williams, Kyle Smith in the FO, Tomsula and a few others on the coaching staff, and the team does have a good core group of young players.

 

But what they lack is leadership and direction, that's Bruce first and then Jay.  Unfortunately, I think if Bruce and Jay go, it might be a total blow-up, and good pieces will get scattered.  I don't want that. 

 

Bruce should not be running the football operation, and Jay, well, so far 2018 Jay looks like 2015-2017 Jay, "meh" at best. 

 

 

 

Are Dan and Bruce close?  I remember those reports back in April that basically said Dan was over Allen and the only reason he's still around is the stadium situation.  Bruce has been one PR embarrassment after another.  

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2 hours ago, CTskin said:

I've been a Gruden defender, but the Colts game is something that we see too often and is one of the last straws. Our talent certainly isn't worldbeater status, but the Colts were an inferior team and they had their way with us. After re-watching the game, it's obvious that this loss is all on coaching; our scheme and energy was awful. It reminded me of the final game of 2016 vs the Giants, we were playing to get in the playoffs and they were playing for nothing, yet we came out flat and clueless. I could expand on where we went wrong in the Colts game, but you're all already aware.

 

Even after this embarrassment, the issue remains, who would we replace him with? I know plenty of people hate him enough that they'd accept Zorn 2.0, but obviously that wouldn't be best for the franchise. Give me names, give me ideas, the "just fire him" thing is too lazy.

 

That's where I am at as well. Prior to this post I wouldn't have been on board scapegoating Jay and wanting him gone but the energy issue has me convinced finally he needs to go.

 

Problem like your saying is Bruce and Dan have to replace him and no one worth anything would come here and be successful unless they are just in it for a paycheck. That's the only way they can hire someone. Dan has completely exhausted the ex Redskins group, and without those guys he ends up signing Jim Zorn clowns.

 

I doubt even with a new coach it would work. How many coaches failed under Dan? All of them right. The problems not the location or the coaches ability the problems the owner and president. Even if Dan cans Bruce that is not enough. Dan needs to can Dan and then it will work. With Dan at the helm it won't. But I'm sure they will spin it that it will work this time with the new guy. If only Dan would get a clue and sell ugh

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2 minutes ago, drowland said:

 

Are Dan and Bruce close?  I remember those reports back in April that basically said Dan was over Allen and the only reason he's still around is the stadium situation.  Bruce has been one PR embarrassment after another.  

 

That cracks me up. Dan has squeezed all of the life out of this team from the minute he got here. The cash cow is dying every day and Dan is demanding a new stadium like he earned one. Has he earned a new stadium? Hell no not even a little bit. But he's keeping his jerkoff boyfriend around so he can get one? My hope is that VA tells him to kick rocks and will give him a new stadium only after he sells the damn team. I'm not saying that Fed Ex isn't a complete dump and and eyesore that should be imploded but this money grab is all that Dan knows how to do with this club and fanbase. From suing Grandmothers, to taxing everything under the sun he doesn't get it. The stadium should be an enclosed retractable roof stadium, but the idiot owner wants to have an open stadium and then wonder why he can't host a Superbowl? He is completely hopeless. Give Dan and ultimatum. Sell the team and he can get a new stadium, otherwise he can get one after they win another championship. Not before. 

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17 minutes ago, bobandweave said:

 

I doubt even with a new coach it would work. How many coaches failed under Dan? All of them right. The problems not the location or the coaches ability the problems the owner and president. Even if Dan cans Bruce that is not enough. Dan needs to can Dan and then it will work. With Dan at the helm it won't. But I'm sure they will spin it that it will work this time with the new guy. If only Dan would get a clue and sell ugh

 

I am not in the fire Jay crowd. Though i understand the unrest about him on this thread with last Sunday's game still feeling fresh.    However, lets say it goes there.  I am with you as to who's up next.  Why would anyone want to work in a dysfunctional organization especially when things tend to get nasty.  If Jay gets canned I'd bet money we'd get all these exposes about this and that where he's kicked out the door and he's scapegoated as the problem.  It's always "someone else" that's the problem and now that they are gone everything is all right until the next person walks into the door and the vicious cycle continues.  

 

For a serious candidate to come here, they'd likely want to be overpaid AND have personnel control.  That combination typically doesn't work because you get a coach who isn't hungry and one who has bit off more than he can chew -- typically coaches are bad at personnel or at best mediocre.

 

Dan seems among other things allergic at putting together a real winning FO structure.  Put a real football guy with an excellent resume in charge and stay out of their way. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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3 hours ago, bobandweave said:

 

 

That's where I am at as well. Prior to this post I wouldn't have been on board scapegoating Jay and wanting him gone but the energy issue has me convinced finally he needs to go.

 

Problem like your saying is Bruce and Dan have to replace him and no one worth anything would come here and be successful unless they are just in it for a paycheck. That's the only way they can hire someone. Dan has completely exhausted the ex Redskins group, and without those guys he ends up signing Jim Zorn clowns.

 

I doubt even with a new coach it would work. How many coaches failed under Dan? All of them right. The problems not the location or the coaches ability the problems the owner and president. Even if Dan cans Bruce that is not enough. Dan needs to can Dan and then it will work. With Dan at the helm it won't. But I'm sure they will spin it that it will work this time with the new guy. If only Dan would get a clue and sell ugh

 

Exactly. I have a feeling that Bienemy will be a hot commodity if the Chiefs stay hot. Given his coaching tree and previous success with Alex, I could accept this coaching change. But, if the scenario plays out that the Chiefs continue to put up 40 points per game, he will be courted by many teams. He has the Alex connection and may even receive the most money from the Skins, but even then I would be surprised if he accepted a job here. It's common knowledge that Snyder is the worst, why would anyone with value put themself in that situation? As long as he's here, I don't see how we land anyone better than a second rate coach or a complete wildcard with less upside than down. For that reason, and for the fact that Gruden has created a consistent top 10 offense, I worry that his replacement won't be an upgrade. 

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On 9/19/2018 at 8:54 AM, skinsmania123 said:

I don't dislike Gruden as a coach.  But he does not inspire his players.  They are not consistently ready to play.   He is more a players friend. Buddy.  He does not inspire them to give it all on the field.   

 

So whose JOB is it to get a team ready and engaged and fired UP every damn game?  Well the coach if the players can't do it.  Locker room leadership my ass.  If I were Gruden I would  have the practice squad players up there competing.  They have to believe they will be sat every week if they give half ass effort.  

 

And more then anything his play calling is blah.  It is predictable and uninspired.  Every Colt player knew what was coming.  Hell my buddies and I were sitting around in this last one making bets on what he would call.  It was freaking tie.  We all knew.

 

 

 

 

Agree 1000% especially the 1st sentence. So if *we* see it or *think* we see it..are we WRONG? Gruden has to hear this criticism..the players definitely feel it because you don't throw the coach under the bus with "Lack of Energy" comments unless you are trying to tell the coach to wake the F up! It is such a common theme throughout his tenure..why has he not responded? Look at Brady's comments..he wanted a "divorce" from Belichick  but praises him as a coach and feels he gets his teams to play hard (aka RESPECT).

 

You can be a fair hard coach and still have the players respect you..I just don't get it why Gruden doesn't pick this up when he knows his job is on the line. *My* only answer is that he just not that enthused to being a head coach...I dunno???

Edited by The Hangman- C_Hanburger
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5 minutes ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

 

You can be a fair hard coach and still have the players respect you..I just don't get it why Gruden doesn't pick this up when he knows hois job is on the time. *My* only answer is that he just not that enthused to being a head coach...I dunno???

You are who you are though.  You can’t just flip a switch and if you do, folks won’t respect you - they’ll see it’s not authentic.

 

I’m a very liberal, “cool” manager in the workplace. It’s served me well with the teams I’ve had over the years, getting a lot of work done and crushing goals.  That said, I was once reassigned to an entirely new group of people and about a year or so into it I realized that my management style didn’t work well with this group.  While most were good team members, there were a few bad apples.    I needed to be tougher on them but to be tough on them, I’d have to be tough on everyone.  It made me want out.  I couldn’t just overnight become a strict boss and be someone I wasn’t or I’d lose the rest of the group too.  

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20 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

You are who you are though.  You can’t just flip a switch and if you do, folks won’t respect you - they’ll see it’s not authentic.

 

I’m a very liberal, “cool” manager in the workplace. It’s served me well with the teams I’ve had over the years, getting a lot of work done and crushing goals.  That said, I was once reassigned to an entirely new group of people and about a year or so into it I realized that my management style didn’t work well with this group.  While most were good team members, there were a few bad apples.    I needed to be tougher on them but to be tough on them, I’d have to be tough on everyone.  It made me want out.  I couldn’t just overnight become a strict boss and be someone I wasn’t or I’d lose the rest of the group too.  

I fully understand that. I was a manager too..eventually I wanted out of managing people because it wore me out being "fair". Who got raises, who got fired. So I realized I couldn't continue to perform in that capacity and enjoy *my* life. That is a valid reason to STOP managing. So if Gruden sees he is not getting the most out of his team with his style and the players are asking for discipline, why not turn the keys over to someone else. His job is not to manage to mediocrity but to excel. So *I* don't understand staying with his status quo when it's hurting the team, sales revenue and his reputation??? The old performance plan critique...time to step your game up or be gone. Everybody has that discussion at some point in their life. The "Peter Principle" appears to have been met here.

 

I supported Jay...more than most. I still think he has skills that are valuable and COULD excel IF he held people responsible. Like was said..play people who work hard..to hell with the score..send a message. He sees it on tape..WR's standing still when it's a running play away from them..not fighting through a block to get open/conceding to early. MISSING ASSIGNMENTS/ROUTES Players who miss assignments repeatedly..need to sit..publicly..let the player explain why. Gotta change this culture somehow..it's cancerous to our younger players

Edited by The Hangman- C_Hanburger
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@The Hangman- C_Hamberger I highly doubt Jay believes that he’s the primary problem with his team nor would he want to give up his salary to hand the keys to someone else.  

 

Perhaps Im in the minority here but I don’t think the teams problem is Jay being the type of coach to allow a titty twister.  I can understand folks challenging his sometimes inability to stray from a poorly working game plan or his clock management.  But the rest of the stuff to me sounds like folks listen to too much Doc Walker old man radio. 

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49 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

@The Hangman- C_Hamberger I highly doubt Jay believes that he’s the primary problem with his team nor would he want to give up his salary to hand the keys to someone else.  

 

Perhaps Im in the minority here but I don’t think the teams problem is Jay being the type of coach to allow a titty twister.  I can understand folks challenging his sometimes inability to stray from a poorly working game plan or his clock management.  But the rest of the stuff to me sounds like folks listen to too much Doc Walker old man radio. 

 

Speaking of Doc Walker, talk about a dude who needs a sparring partner with him -- he comes off terrible IMO on his own on that station.    As for Jay being laid back.  That's like anything else.  Context can make it good or bad. When a manager/coach is laid back when a team is winning -- its like hey the team is loose and having fun.  When the team loses its because the players didn't fear the coach.  When an intense type runs the team and you win -- its hey they are disciplined.  When they don't, the team doesn't like the coach they aren't responding to him. 

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I've wanted Jay to succeed but he sure makes it tough to keep supporting him. I think most recognize he's better suited as an OC. It's really unfortunate how we had two better options in Kyle and Sean in the building during the past 6 years. 

Edited by lavar1156

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52 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Speaking of Doc Walker, talk about a dude who needs a sparring partner with him -- he comes off terrible IMO on his own on that station.  

My god, he’s terrible.  By far the absolute worst show I’ve ever had the displeasure of listening to. Who’s idea was that?

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One of the Colts players had 18 tackles, I didn't key in on him primarily but I'm going to assume he was used as some sort of spy for the predictable play-calling which consists heavily of 1st down runs and tons of short passes behind the LOS and short passes in front. The dude had the middle on lock down. 

 

If this is the case, it will be interesting to see if teams continue to do this. 

Edited by Burgundy Yoda

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21 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

My god, he’s terrible.  By far the absolute worst show I’ve ever had the displeasure of listening to. Who’s idea was that?

 

Yeah I always thought he was more of take him in small doses type of dude because he can be amusing playing off of Sheehan for example in the pregame in the old days.  But alone on the radio, he's a train wreck IMO. 

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On 9/18/2018 at 9:57 AM, Reaper Skins said:

If Mike Tomlin can't win a Superbowl with the talent that Pittsburgh has, he won't be successful here. 

 

Talk about a guy who's poor game management gets in the way of playing up to their talent level.

 

Hard Pass no thanks.

My God, did someone suggest getting Mike Tmolin? Never mind, I don't want to know. Tomlin is terrible. He's probably had the most talented team in the NFL for like 5 years in a row and hasn't gotten a Super Bowl out of it. If a Coach is given the talent of a 14 win team, people think they're accomplishing something great by getting 11 Wins out of them.

 

He's a defensive coach who's defense is terrible and has no control over a disaster of a locker room. The Steelers have been a top-notch organization for a long time, but their faith in Tomlin is the black mark on their ledger.

On 9/19/2018 at 8:26 AM, 50yrSKINSfan said:

Hay Old School. Think the guys name is Nagy or something like that. OC I believe. Cheers.

Nagy is the Head Coach. The OC is Mark Helfrich, and no thanks on him as a coaching candidate. 

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