Voice_of_Reason

Game of Thrones Season 8

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11 hours ago, Hersh said:

 

Are you saying he's not the worst strategist ever according to the books? Otherwise you can't say he isn't but they wrote him to be exactly that in the show. I mean you can say that but it's a total contradiction. They really didn't build his character up to be an amazing war strategist in the early seasons that I can remember. That's far different from being hand to the queen.   

 

I haven't read the books. My point was that he''s always been portrayed as one of the smartest characters on the show until Dany needed her armies nuked to level the playing field with Cersei and then he was written as a bumbling idiot the last two seasons to justify her losing her armies, dragons and advantages. 

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8 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:
Video of Dany doing the thing where a character says they're not going to do something that they later end up doing.

Pretty epic foreshadowing in retrospect.  

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

I think the idea of being a proper lady being forced to marry some asshole lord's asshole son is quite different from retiring from being an international assassin to settle down and bone a blacksmith in the castle he was just given. I think it's pretty clear that whatever this world was at the start of this series is no longer what this world is.

 

She's allowed to fall in love.

 

I can see that, actually. Do I trust the show to handle that change in her in any way more nuanced than running into Gendrys arms in the last scene while he lifts her up like Swayze in Dirty Dancing so twitter goes nuts? No. 

Edited by Momma There Goes That Man
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9 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

The extent of her character from the very beginning never wanting to be a traditional lady that settles down with somebody. I never said she had to be an assassin murdering people her entire life. I like the idea of her walking away from a life of revenge, though it was handled poorly for several seasons if that is going to be the culmination of that idea.

 

It would still be a character betrayal for her to just go settle down with Gendry after this when she never wanted that type of life even before her father died and she began her quest for revenge. 

I think this is a kind of mistaken mindset when it comes to characters and people.  People change and just because she didn't want something before doesn't mean she can't change her mind after what happened with her. (And even if she doesn't want to settle down, I could see a scenario where she does so bitterly out of exhaustion, though that would be really disappointing for everyone)  It's also possible that perhaps she wasn't completely honest with us or herself when she was talking to Gendry.  While she has never longed for the sort of life her sister seems to thrive in, that doesn't mean she doesn't get lonely or want to be with someone.  But I imagine if she were to end up with Gendry it would be on her terms, not as a traditional lady.  Anyway, this is all hypothetical and she could end up dying in the first few minutes of the next episode. (though I really ****ing hope not, lol)

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Arya is going to go west of Westerios. Like she told that actor lady, while training with the house of black and white. If Gendry wants to go with, I'm sure she'd be fine with that.

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1 minute ago, Yohan said:

Arya is going to go west of Westerios. Like she told that actor lady, while training with the house of black and white. If Gendry wants to go with, I'm sure she'd be fine with that.

You know, that would be interesting if Gendry decides to give up everything for her.    Not sure they'll do that though. 

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1 minute ago, visionary said:

You know, that would be interesting if Gendry decides to give up everything for her.    Not sure they'll do that though. 

Well, if it ends the way I think it will, with the liberation of the Seven Kingdoms in some capacity ... Gendry may not have a castle to attend anyway, so it would be a fitting end if he says he would rather spend the rest of his life with Arya than to claim a seat that may not even exist.

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31 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

 

Question for the book nerds: Martin seems great at building character and a mess with a plotting. Is that accurate? I feel like by writing 10,000 pages or whatever he just accidentally created a lot of plot while what really interested him was Lady Oleana's choice in bedroom décor. I think he woke up one day and said, "Holy ****....that's a lot of plot" and that's the last day he wrote anything.

 

 

Accurate. And you're right about the dialogue, most of the great dialogue from the earlier seasons is word for word from the books. Particularly Tywin's - "explain to me why it is more noble to kill ten thousand men in battle than a dozen at dinner."

 

Martin started out as a TV writer and says he always wanted to expand the stories beyond what producers would allow. Books 1-3 have a tighter narrative but with 4-5 he expanded the iron Islands and Dorne so much that books 4-5 literally divide the viewpoint characters in half and are on a concurrent timeline. 

 

Adding these new plotlines means others have to be slowed down, so Daenerys gets parked in Meereen for a book. There's too much to resolve. I think you're right about Season 5 with them trying to drag it out hoping to get at least book 6.

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Posted (edited)

One of the best episodes in the series. LMAO at the fans who treated these characters as wish-fulfillment/ship-fests.

 

Tyrion isn't going to become Dwarf Tywin no matter how much the fans want it, the world he inhabits would piss itself laughing if he tried. Rewatch the beetles scene if you need a reminder.

 

Really can't be emphasized enough how indifferent the rest of the Seven Kingdoms should be to Kings Landing getting smoked given every noble family has been taught the history of the Targaryen Conquest.

 

 

Edited by FanboyOf91
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5 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

I haven't read the books. My point was that he''s always been portrayed as one of the smartest characters on the show until Dany needed her armies nuked to level the playing field with Cersei and then he was written as a bumbling idiot the last two seasons to justify her losing her armies, dragons and advantages. 

 

He's portrayed as the smartest but not the cleverest. His defense of KL was good, but it was going to fail. All his plotting in KL ended up with him in a cell sentenced to death.

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Posted (edited)

The great tactician that is Tyrion Lannister, decides to tell help Jaime get into the Red Keep through the secret entrance, instead of telling Dany about it and finding a way to assassinate Cersei without killing all of those innocent civilians. 

 

Yet another reason why for the past two seasons he's only been good for apologizing for being stupid and making sad facial expressions. 

Edited by Gamebreaker
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Posted (edited)

Just went back and read a recap of where things stand at the end of Book 5.


I really hope GRRM finishes the story. So many different storylines that the show glossed over and/or eliminated due to the immense depth of the stories. I like how the show handled most of them, but it is very clear that the book story must take many different turns to get us to the same finale, and I doubt it includes much of what the show has spun out TBH.

 

I can also now fully understand how, if the show spells out at least some of the pairings/interactions/developments in this story, how GRRM is struggling mightily to get us there given where various characters are at this point in the books.

Edited by JamesMadisonSkins

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

Just went back and read a recap of where things stand at the end of Book 5.


I really hope GRRM finishes the story. So many different storylines that the show glossed over and/or eliminated due to the immense depth of the stories. I like how the show handled most of them, but it is very clear that the book story must take many different turns to get us to the same finale, and I doubt it includes much of what the show has spun out TBH.

I kind of dread getting back into the books though.  There were a lot of unnecessary and boring new plot-lines in the last couple of books (though I oddly enjoyed the travelogue stuff at the time) and GRRM really made Cersei into a joke, also I really hated the Stoneheart subplot.

Edited by visionary
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10 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

He's portrayed as the smartest but not the cleverest. His defense of KL was good, but it was going to fail. All his plotting in KL ended up with him in a cell sentenced to death.

 

Its not really his fault he ended up in prison. He had nothing to do with Joffreys death and was falsely accused of it and locked up. There was nothing in his actions that led to that or that he could have done to prevent it

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10 minutes ago, Gamebreaker said:

The great tactician that is Tyrion Lannister, decides to tell help Jaime get into the Red Keep through the secret entrance, instead of telling Dany about it and finding a way to assassinate Cersei without killing all of those innocent civilians. 

  

Yet another reason why for the past two seasons he's only been good for apologizing for being stupid and making sad facial expressions. 

 

He wasn't interested in assassinating Cersei.  His plan was that Jaime and Cersei escape.

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14 minutes ago, Gamebreaker said:

The great tactician that is Tyrion Lannister, decides to tell help Jaime get into the Red Keep through the secret entrance, instead of telling Dany about it and finding a way to assassinate Cersei without killing all of those innocent civilians. 

 

Yet another reason why for the past two seasons he's only been good for apologizing for being stupid and making sad facial expressions. 

What? Telling Dany about the secret entrance would have led to a bloody battle in the streets of KL with no dragon. It's not like the Mother of Dragons can waltz in by herself, get past the mountain, and kill the Queen. Now, if Tyrion had told her about it as a means to have her meet an untimely demise....

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, visionary said:

I kind of dread getting back into the books though.  There were a lot of unnecessary and boring new plot-lines in the last couple of books (though I oddly enjoyed the travelogue stuff at the time) and GRRM really made Cersei into a joke.  

I thought so too. As GoT the show wrapped up, I assumed they'd stick fairly closely to what the books would do once it departed. But going back and remembering where things were when the last book ended, and not having touched the books since Season 2 began ... I kind of forgot how after the Red Wedding the show dropped a lot of the story-lines and just stuck with the characters that existed at that point.

 

Lady Stoneheart, the Connington/Aegon piece, Euron sailing to Mereen ... Jaime in the Riverlands. Arian of Dorne, who I was absolutely loving as a character (and that the show totally dismissed by emphasizing the SandSnake) ...

 

So many stories I was invested in but then just dismissed once the show didn't introduce them. And while the show may be getting to the same endpoint, the books are such a deeper, more complex story ... despite knowing how the story will end after Sunday, if GRRM ever finishes the books, the story I loved after Dance would be a completely different experience.

 

And I will say the way the books are telling the stories fit the world of Westeros and the lore of ASOIAF that many are now invested in thanks to the show. The book does a much better job of world-building. The show did a great job matching it in Seasons 1-3 ... but less so in 4 and 5 ... and really dropped it after Season 6 ... the show is it's own creation now, and is really a completely different story than what the books had been telling.

 

That may not have been fully grasped up until now, but with this rushed ending on the TV screen, I think it is making that all the more obvious. I just hadn't realized it because it's been 8 years since I read the books and I've been so immersed in what the show has become over the last 6-7 years.

Edited by JamesMadisonSkins
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One thing everyone has to remember is that books aren't television and film. Sometimes you put two people on screen and they just pop. I mean, I don't know what Jamie and Brienne were like on the page, but on screen, it was clear that they had this amazing connection.

 

Did the book allude to the fact that Arya and the Hound would form a bizarre mentor/mentee relationship? Or was that because of the actors. It would be a shame if we didn't get those pairings and stories because it didn't fit into Martin's endless plotting.

2 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

I thought so too. As GoT the show wrapped up, I assumed they'd stick fairly closely to what the books would do once it departed. But going back and remembering where things were when the last book ended, and not having touched the books since Season 2 began ... I kind of forgot how after the Red Wedding the show dropped a lot of the story-lines and just stuck with the characters that existed at that point.

 

Lady Stoneheart, the Connington/Aegon piece, Euron sailing to Mereen ... Jaime in the Riverlands. Tyrion being back in Westeros and not Essos. Arian of Dorne, who I was absolutely loving as a character (and that the show totally dismissed by emphasizing the SandSnake) ...

 

So many stories I was invested in but then just dismissed once the show didn't introduce them. And while the show may be getting to the same endpoint, the books are such a deeper, more complex story ... despite knowing how the story will end after Sunday, if GRRM ever finishes the books, the story I loved after Dance would be a completely different experience.

 

Maybe they will all appear in the finale.

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Just now, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

One thing everyone has to remember is that books aren't television and film. Sometimes you put two people on screen and they just pop. I mean, I don't know what Jamie and Brienne were like on the page, but on screen, it was clear that they had this amazing connection.

 

Did the book allude to the fact that Arya and the Hound would form a bizarre mentor/mentee relationship? Or was that because of the actors. It would be a shame if we didn't get those pairings and stories because it didn't fit into Martin's endless plotting.

Both those things were in the first three books and done well (although I think I found Arya a bit annoying in the books)

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

One thing everyone has to remember is that books aren't television and film. Sometimes you put two people on screen and they just pop. I mean, I don't know what Jamie and Brienne were like on the page, but on screen, it was clear that they had this amazing connection.

 

I totally agree. And I guess my point in all of this is me having a self-realization that my assumption that the TV Show GoT was going to carry the mantel for ASOIAF and be a slam dunk visual on screen conclusion to what the books had built was wrong. And I got lost in the show. But now I am realizing that the show did what it had to do to tell the story visually, and took liberties to do so. And maybe the themes are all the same, they just get there in different ways and with different pairings. But, and it's a big BUT, if GRRM ends up getting around to finishing the books, it really is an entirely different story and will likely go a very different route to get to where the show is ending things up. In a way that will feel more deserved and less rushed.

 

Anyway, you're right. The on-screen chemistries certainly could have forced the story to change and adapt in many ways. Arya/Hound was great in the books, as was Brienne/Jaime. While they diverged in the books, I think where the show ended up with those relationships is likely to happen in the books too.


What I think will differ the most is how GRRM uses the very important/interesting characters and plot lines that the show dropped altoghether (for good reasons) but were fascinating in the books, and will likely enhance the story if it can ever get wrapped up.

Edited by JamesMadisonSkins

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1 minute ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

 

I totally agree. And I guess my point in all of this is me having a self-realization that my assumption that the TV Show GoT was going to carry the mantel for ASOIAF and be a slam dunk visual on screen conclusion to what the books had built was wrong. And I got lost in the show. But now I am realizing that the show did what it had to do to tell the story visually, and took liberties to do so. And maybe the themes are all the same, they just get there in different ways and with different pairings. But, and it's a big BUT, if GRRM ends up getting around to finishing the books, it really is an entirely different story and will likely go a very different route to get to where the show is ending things up. In a way that will feel more deserved and less rushed.

 

Anyway, you're right. The on-screen chemistries certainly could have forced the story to change and adapt in many ways. Arya/Hound was great in the books, as was Brienne/Jaime. While they diverged in the books, I think where the show ended up with those relationships is likely to happen in the books too.


What I think will differ the most is how GRRM uses the very important/interesting characters and plot lines that the show dropped altoghether (for good reasons) but were fascinating in the books, and will likely enhance the story if it can ever get wrapped up.

 

One interesting thing is 

Spoiler

there was a lot of debate a few years back if Brienne was even alive or if her or Jamie were going to die right away.  

 

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Posted (edited)

Ultimately I think GRRM told the show writers and HBO how the story would end on Sunday. He probably stated that he planned to get ertain characters together, but otherwise the show took liberties on everything else.

 

Hiding the book stuff in case soem people don't want that spoiled and want to explore them once the show wraps.

 

 

In the books, Euron supposedly has a mysticall horn that can tame and call a Dragon. He wants to take one, and marry Dany. He's landing in Mereen as the book wraps up, and Dany is in the great grasslands having been abandoned by Drogon after the fighting pit escape, with her dragons still back in Mereen. So there's a good chance Euron takes a dragon, and that's how Dany loses Rhaegal.  But the show instead had him become some Jack Sparrow Cersei lover who takes the dragon down with a giant crossbow. Not quite the same payoff. But the show did what it had to do, and I hope GRRM finishes the books so we can see the way he envisioned it getting to this endgame. My sense is the payoff will be much more satisfying.

 

 

Edited by JamesMadisonSkins

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Dany condems Jon Snow to die and trys to burn him with dragon fire, Snow is a Targaryen and cant die from fire , Arya and Jon Snow kill both Dany and her dragon. Jon Snow gives the throne the Gendry Barathion

 

GENDRY IS A +3000 Vegas odds to sit on throne. If you are a degenerate gambler BET HIM!

 

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28 minutes ago, DCSaints_fan said:

 

He wasn't interested in assassinating Cersei.  His plan was that Jaime and Cersei escape.

 

Which completely contradicts how he expected to save the citizens of Kings Landing if Cersei is expected to be there and she isn't. Dany would've still torn up KL looking for her. 

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30 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

One thing everyone has to remember is that books aren't television and film. Sometimes you put two people on screen and they just pop. I mean, I don't know what Jamie and Brienne were like on the page, but on screen, it was clear that they had this amazing connection.

 

Did the book allude to the fact that Arya and the Hound would form a bizarre mentor/mentee relationship? Or was that because of the actors. It would be a shame if we didn't get those pairings and stories because it didn't fit into Martin's endless plotting.

 

Maybe they will all appear in the finale.

 

Yes they did.   It played out similarly.  Except Brienne never caught up with Arya/the Hound before she left for Braavos and she sure as heck didn't defeat the Hound.   But Arya did leave the Hound for dead.  On the other hand, he actually told her to put him out of his misery and couldn't do it.

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