The Definition of a Loser Franchise

[Rufus T Firefly]

4 hours ago, The Batman said:

 

I’m also slightly confused by this notion that trading for Alex Smith is going to sell tickets like gang busters. You want to sell tickets? Trade up high into the first and draft a QB. That gets rears in seats. What does Alex Smith have to do with ticket sales? He might be the least sexy competent QB in the NFL. It feels like this argument just uses an artifact from the past that we are reflexively used to using, that we did something to make a splash, when in reality there’s very little splashy about Alex Smith.

Since you seem determined to outpost everyone else in this thread without appearing to make the slightest effort to understand the entire premise of it, let me quickly elucidate-

 

Alex Smith is the type of player that keeps the team in the running for 9-7 seasons and, they hope, the occasional playoff berth. This organization has been content with that level of football since Snyder bought the team,  rather than let football people build a real contender, or go thru a real building process. 

 

A rookie QB might sell tickets in the short term. But rookie QBs sometimes struggle for a period of time that might endanger Bruce Allen's job.

[CousinsCowgirl84]

Rufus, i’m sorry but i disagree with you. The team has rarely been “in contention for a playoff berth”.  We didn’t make the playoffs the past two years. Giving up a talented defensive player and a older third round pick for an older version of what we had to save a few million against the cap is unlikely to change that. We are a loser franchise, but there is no strategy here.

 

Rg3 and kirk cousins were both rookie qbs that bruce decided to play....

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

10 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

 

Rg3 and kirk cousins were both rookie qbs that bruce decided to play....

Yeah, when he had time.  The clock is ticking on Bruce.  He couldn't survive losing the QB and rolling with Colt or an unknown rookie.

[clskinsfan]

21 hours ago, Birdlives said:

The definition of a loser franchise is any franchise that Dan Snyder owns. He’s the only common denominator over the last 20 years of suck. What’s sad is he still doesn’t see it. 

 

I am sure he sees it. He has watched his attendance drop considerably year after year. I just dont know that he knows how to do anything about it. And as long as we keep lining his pockets he probably just doesnt care.

[clskinsfan]

18 hours ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

I swear he looks like he has really lost a step.  Players were running by Norman like he was wearing concrete shoes.  I doubt the rib injury was affecting him that bad towards the end of the year.  I'd much prefer to keep Fuller and let Norman go. 

In fairness to Norman. He played injured all season last year. While other guys fell and went to IR he stuck it out and played through pain. I respect the guy. And he is a hell of a corner when healthy.

[Warhead36]

A good franchise would have let Norman go and built the secondary around Fuller. But this is the same bunch of losers that is STILL hanging onto Deangelo Hall.  Belicheck woulda cut his sorry ass three years ago.

[CousinsCowgirl84]

4 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Yeah, when he had time.  The clock is ticking on Bruce.  He couldn't survive losing the QB and rolling with Colt or an unknown rookie.

 

 

If the kirk cousins debacle didn’t get him fired....

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

On 1/31/2018 at 11:05 AM, Rdskns2000 said:

Bottom line? Dan is guaranteed money.  Going back to double digit losses, may cut into some of his local money but Dan will always still make money with the team.  The NFL is set up that way.   The Skins would have to be what the Browns have been for multiple seasons. Reach the point where the stadium is mostly empty.

 

The ultimate embarrassment and what could fracture part of the fanbase from Snyder forever is this:  

 

During the time frame Alex Smith ends up being with us, this happens:

 

At best the Skins do no better than we have been the last 3 years or the Skins returns to double digit losing. During that same time span; Kirk wins a Superbowl his new team.  That will too much for some.  A QB we drafted and groomed, goes on to win it all somewhere else and the Skins remain the same or get worse.

 

If Skins under Alex do the same as Cousins does with his new team, then it's a wash.  If Cousin flops and we do better, then we win. If it's the scenario, I stated above; then that will hurt Dan Snyder.  I think the younger fanbase will leave for good and if Dan loses the younger fanbase; then that's when it will really hurt his bottom line.  Dan won't be poor; he'll still get that shared NFL money but he won't make any more money than that.

 

While the Redskins are ranked 6th in the league in total attendance and average home attendance (8 home games), if you look at the percentage of attendance as far as stadium capacity is concerned, they are ranked 28th (one spot above Cleveland).  Even ranked at 28th, they are still at 88.4% capacity (on average) and the other 27 teams above them all are at 91.0% or higher.  

 

Percentage wise, we are already where the Browns are as far as attendance vs. stadium capacity, it's just the market is bigger, stadium bigger in DC, so they would have to lose a lot more (talking 12K - 20K less fans per average attendance) to cause any real impact.  Just my opinion though.

 

Point being, the Browns stadium on average by percentage of stadium capacity is not empty.  The only real stadium that was empty was LA Chargers.  

[Spearfeather]

 

Hail to the Redskins

[Warhead36]

30 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

While the Redskins are ranked 6th in the league in total attendance and average home attendance (8 home games), if you look at the percentage of attendance as far as stadium capacity is concerned, they are ranked 28th (one spot above Cleveland).  Even ranked at 28th, they are still at 88.4% capacity (on average) and the other 27 teams above them all are at 91.0% or higher.  

 

Percentage wise, we are already where the Browns are as far as attendance vs. stadium capacity, it's just the market is bigger, stadium bigger in DC, so they would have to lose a lot more (talking 12K - 20K less fans per average attendance) to cause any real impact.  Just my opinion though.

 

Point being, the Browns stadium on average by percentage of stadium capacity is not empty.  The only real stadium that was empty was LA Chargers.  

And the Browns have mostly Brown fans in their attendance. Our home games are essentially neutral site game with 50% opposing fans.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

Just now, Warhead36 said:

And the Browns have mostly Brown fans in their attendance. Our home games are essentially neutral site game with 50% opposing fans.

 

Exactly.  My best friend lives near Cleveland and goes to their games and said it's a sea of brown.  The two Redskins games I've been to at FedEx (Dallas in 2002, Bears 2013), it was like you said, almost 50/50.  For the Bears game, I somehow was surrounded by them, it was like Soldier Field Lite in my section in the upper level.

[Tsailand]

2 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

this is the same bunch of losers that is STILL hanging onto Deangelo Hall.  Belicheck woulda cut his sorry ass three years ago.

I love me some D Hall, but it's true.  That's why Belichick is in the playoffs every year.

[dahibachi]

4 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

A good franchise would have let Norman go and built the secondary around Fuller. But this is the same bunch of losers that is STILL hanging onto Deangelo Hall.  Belicheck woulda cut his sorry ass three years ago.

True, but then again, a good franchise would have never put themselves in a situation where they are forced to give up assets. Whenever this team executes a trade, we are never the ones praying on the weakness of others... we are always the team in need. 

[Rufus T Firefly]

8 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Rufus, i’m sorry but i disagree with you. The team has rarely been “in contention for a playoff berth”.  We didn’t make the playoffs the past two years. Giving up a talented defensive player and a older third round pick for an older version of what we had to save a few million against the cap is unlikely to change that. We are a loser franchise, but there is no strategy here.

They fail, but the point is that the goal they strive for is to compete, not contend. I never said we were in contention for playoff berths consistently, just that that is what we were shooting for. As disgusted as I and you are with how they try to build this team, it's ridiculous to act like they are TRYING to go 5-11.

8 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Rg3 and kirk cousins were both rookie qbs that bruce decided to play....

I really don't get what point you're trying to make here. But, the Griffin trade is the one point in the Snyder years that I actually give them credit for striving for something better. Investing in a rookie QB you feel is going to be a star is certainly the type of thing you do if you're shooting for contention.

 

But you bring up playing him as a rookie. That is the point where they went back to the old mentality, imo. Griffin was a mechanically flawed QB. The thing to do for the team's future was to work with him and try to develop him to be a better QB for his career. Instead, they played him from day 1 (in fact, announced they were going to from the start of training camp). That was a win now, sell tickets move, not a build a contender move.

 

I'm not saying Griffin would have necessarily developed better if we had done that, btw. Just that it was the smart thing to do.

[The Batman]

19 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Several people mentioned that he should have been the one to go rather than Fuller.  That would have been nice to get Josh's 15M off the books and keep the cheap up and coming player.  But I don't think for a second the Chiefs would want his 15M salary.  They knew what they wanted and the Redskins desperately took the deal.

 

I honestly don't know how much trade value Josh has overall due to his contract.  He simply hasn't made game changing plays and has some bad tape out there from last season.  With that said, I don't think the lack of pass rush a lot of the time help his cause for making those game changing plays.  Perhaps another team would see it that way.  It'd be interesting to see what they can get but after giving up Fuller and most likely losing Breeland, they don't have much choice but to keep him in this effort to stay employed.

 

What would trading him have done to our cap this year? Not sure I’ve seen any figures on his cap hit. Maybe that factored in? Ive also read that part of the reason they preferred Fuller to Talib in the Broncos offer was that Fuller was on a rookie deal so I think you’re right about the Chiefs not feeling like paying that.

[The Batman]

15 hours ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

Since you seem determined to outpost everyone else in this thread without appearing to make the slightest effort to understand the entire premise of it, let me quickly elucidate-

 

Alex Smith is the type of player that keeps the team in the running for 9-7 seasons and, they hope, the occasional playoff berth. This organization has been content with that level of football since Snyder bought the team,  rather than let football people build a real contender, or go thru a real building process. 

 

A rookie QB might sell tickets in the short term. But rookie QBs sometimes struggle for a period of time that might endanger Bruce Allen's job.

 

Well, excuse me for posting on a message board. Didn’t realize there was a per thread post limit. My bad. Also, I understand the premise just fine. I just think it’s very very silly that some people are claiming that a trade for Alex Smith is going to sell tickets. That makes no sense. There were a million other flashier options for ticket sales than trading for a 34 year old QB who has been called a game manager everywhere he’s been. Also, rookie QBs can actually extend a GMs job often as he points to that QBs development as a reason to stay on, whereas a move for an Alex Smith puts the heat on to win and win now if your job is on the line because there is no development or growth to fall back on all while not having the exciting unknown rookie’s potential to use for ticket sales. Thanks for talking down to me, but I just think out of all the arguments why the Redskins traded for Alex Smith, ticket sales (which you mentioned in the post I quoted before explaining yourself in a way that did not at all sound like what you posted first) may be the dumbest. 

 

Acquiring Alex Smith, ironically, enables them to do exactly what you said they should have done with RG3. Draft a guy and let him develop. If they do that, and I hope they do, this move retroactively becomes one to build a contender. 

 

Also regarding your point about them being content with 9-7, no, they haven’t. Snyder’s introductory press conference said he wanted to win the Super Bowl EVERY YEAR. So many management decisions in his first decade plus of ownership were built upon winning the Super Bowl THAT YEAR. Not building a team that could consistently make the playoffs. Your premise is flawed. If that’s the strategy they’re taking, it is not what they’ve done in years past.

[Rufus T Firefly]

20 minutes ago, The Batman said:

Also regarding your point about them being content with 9-7, no, they haven’t. Snyder’s introductory press conference said he wanted to win the Super Bowl EVERY YEAR. So many management decisions in his first decade plus of ownership were built upon winning the Super Bowl THAT YEAR. Not building a team that could consistently make the playoffs. Your premise is flawed. If that’s the strategy they’re taking, it is not what they’ve done in years past.

OMG, he SAID he wants to win Super Bowl?!? He actually SAID that!?! Well, that settles that, then, doesn't it? I mean, if he SAID he wants to win a Super Bowl, then clearly everything he does is part of a strategy to do just that! I mean, I was expecting to find quotes of him saying "I don't care if we ever win a Super Bowl". Because clearly, that is what he would do if he was trying to trick fans into buying into the mediocre team he's sending out there every year- tell the fans that winning titles isn't really his concern. I mean, that just changes everything, because he SAID he wants to win Super Bowls! So, every garbage, quick-fix, win-now move he's made for two decades with GMs who have no business running a football franchise has been part of a clear plan to win the Super Bowl. Because he SAID so!

 

I feel really foolish right now. I really do. 

[The Batman]

21 hours ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

OMG, he SAID he wants to win Super Bowl?!? He actually SAID that!?! Well, that settles that, then, doesn't it? I mean, if he SAID he wants to win a Super Bowl, then clearly everything he does is part of a strategy to do just that! I mean, I was expecting to find quotes of him saying "I don't care if we ever win a Super Bowl". Because clearly, that is what he would do if he was trying to trick fans into buying into the mediocre team he's sending out there every year- tell the fans that winning titles isn't really his concern. I mean, that just changes everything, because he SAID he wants to win Super Bowls! So, every garbage, quick-fix, win-now move he's made for two decades with GMs who have no business running a football franchise has been part of a clear plan to win the Super Bowl. Because he SAID so!

 

I feel really foolish right now. I really do. 

 

I’m not really sure where to start with this, but I’ll try. 

 

You realize there is a difference between saying you want to win a super bowl and saying you want to win one this year and every year, right? One is pragmatic and optimistic and the other is what a child would say. And are you seriously suggesting his GOAL in spending 100m of his money was to just win 9 games? It was a bad idea and didn’t help him reach his goal of a SB THAT year, but come on. That makes no sense.

 

Snyder’s management style has been critiqued over and over again by an emphasis on winning NOW. He has made mistake after mistake after mistake trying to win NOW. To win the Super Bowl NOW. This year. Ever heard the term “win-now mode”? That’s what it means. It means not trying to build a consistent contender, but pushing all your chips in on this season, long term roster consequences be damned. Forgoing cap management, roster cohesiveness, anything else for big splashy free agents that will help us win a SB THIS SEASON rather than any in the future. You know, like the Broncos after Elway, when cap hell made them irrelevant for years. Or when they signed Peyton. That was a WIN NOW move, not one for long term building of a contender. Snyder has always perceived us to be in a closing window and made moves to try to desperately take advantage before it closes, never realizing that we weren’t in the window in the first place. Ironically you made my point talking about win now quick fix moves. That’s EXACTLY what I’m saying. Somehow you’re saying that he made quick fix, win now moves that compromised the future so that he could just win 9 games every year. That makes no sense. I have to think you’re being intentionally dense on this. His biggest early flaw was that he was trying to make moves only to win a SB NOW with no consideration for the future of the team. If he’s trying to consistently win 9 games now, then he wouldn’t give out massive contracts to over the hill free agents that are the kind of move a SB contender 1 piece away does. Like we haven’t really since Bruce got here. I’m not saying Bruce is right and old Snyder was wrong, but it is DIFFERENT. You have to see that, regardless of your sardonic rant.

[carex]

you all don't believe his personnel people are competent.  So how is tearing everything down going to do anything but turning us from a team that can be anywhere from 6-10 to 10-6 depending on a few bounces to a team that'd consistently be 2-14

[Rufus T Firefly]

4 hours ago, The Batman said:

 

I’m not really sure where to start with this, but I’ll try. 

Oh, no, dude. We're done here. You have repeatedly demonstrated your inability to comprehend even a basic premise, so I decided to go ahead and waste a little time explaining it to you. Which you then used as an opportunity to prove yet again that you don't get it, with one of the more ridiculously foolish posts I've ever seen. That's as far as it goes. There will be no back and forth between you and me. I've wasted several minutes of my time on you, and that's on me. But it's over now. Goodbye.

[The Batman]

1 hour ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

Oh, no, dude. We're done here. You have repeatedly demonstrated your inability to comprehend even a basic premise, so I decided to go ahead and waste a little time explaining it to you. Which you then used as an opportunity to prove yet again that you don't get it, with one of the more ridiculously foolish posts I've ever seen. That's as far as it goes. There will be no back and worth between you and me. I've wasted several minutes of my time on you, and that's on me. But it's over now. Goodbye.

 

I understand your premise just fine. I just think you’re wrong. Dead wrong. You do understand you can just have an incorrect opinion without anyone who disagrees with you being an idiot, right? Most people interpret new evidence that contradicts their opinion and either integrate it or reject it on its merits. You have chosen option C - ignore it outright and call the other person a moron. Effective, but doesn’t make you any less wrong.

 

Snyder had a strategy, it was just an awful one, one that ran counter to what he actually wanted given the things required to execute it, as I enumerated and you ignored outright in my previous post. You offered no evidence to support your point nor refute mine all while making a sarcastic, overdone response. I hope you don’t decide to substitute being an ******* for “explaining” things to people in your everyday life. It’s definitely easier to ad hominem someone than defend your dumb point, so good day sir to you as well.

 

Let me know how much I owe you for the few minutes of your precious time. Send the invoice and I’ll file it under I can’t make a coherent point or respond to critiques without getting butthurt.

[SkinsFTW]

More hilarious arguments please.

 

I particularly like the one about Doofus Dan repeatedly attempting to win now, failing spectacularly, time after time after time, and in his despair replaces his own ridiculous philosophy on winning the Superbowl every year but failing with the Bumbling Bruce philosophy of Let's build a no talent team and hope we can squeak into the playoffs with 9 to 10 wins every 5 or so years.

[tmandoug1]

On 1/31/2018 at 1:03 PM, The Batman said:

 

I like your attitude, but the thing is that Smith will NOT be the Redskins' savior. He'll just probably be pretty solid, and give us a chance to keep building the team. As fans we have GOT to stop looking for a savior. THAT is why we are perpetually disappointed. This guy is not as flashy an acquisition (nor as expensive) as a McNabb was and certainly not like RG3 or some of the others, he's just a solid QB. Let's let him be what he is, and don't burden him with ridiculous expectations that he'll either win 5 SBs with us or be the worst QB we've ever had. He's just a guy that could be an upgrade, could be a slight downgrade, but should be solid and lets us focus on other needs while getting a big, huge, titanic distraction that has enveloped the entire team from top to bottom for 3 years behind us.

But how do you know he won't be?  You don't and that's the exciting part......first snap of the regular season.........touchdown! Not really but it will be exciting.

[c slag]

On Friday, February 02, 2018 at 5:00 PM, Rufus T Firefly said:

 

 

I'm not saying Griffin would have necessarily developed better if we had done that, btw. Just that it was the smart thing to do.

They should have left him develop behind a veteran starter in 2012

He might still be on an NFL roster

For some team as a backup 

[The Batman]

9 hours ago, SkinsFTW said:

More hilarious arguments please.

 

I particularly like the one about Doofus Dan repeatedly attempting to win now, failing spectacularly, time after time after time, and in his despair replaces his own ridiculous philosophy on winning the Superbowl every year but failing with the Bumbling Bruce philosophy of Let's build a no talent team and hope we can squeak into the playoffs with 9 to 10 wins every 5 or so years.

 

You are capable of coming up with pretty funny arguments. Nice alliterative nicknames, too. Really puts that extra authentic garnish on your point. Side career in comedy?

 

So we agree on the first part, his philosophy originally being ridiculous. Bruce’s PHILOSOPHY isn’t to build a “no talent team” and try to “squeak into the playoffs”. Bruce, I think, has shown a philosophy of building a roster and not overpaying any individual players. His philosophy is likely to build a contender, hence the FA and draft moves to focus on the lines. Here’s the problem, and what some posters in this thread seem totally unwilling to connect - HE IS NOT GOOD AT IT. He is trying, and so far not succeeding, to build a team that can contend and have long term success. His philosophy is clearly different than that used by Snyder early on, he’s just not executing it well. 

 

Also what is it you “particularly like” about that argument? It’s depressing, but at least it’s a little different. Think of this, though, as you would a college team for a moment. What Snyder did before is like hiring a coach who can’t recruit in college. He will maybe have a few good seasons, but when he leaves, your roster is a joke and your facilities lag behind. Now consider a coach who is decent at recruiting but a bad game day coach. You won’t win much, but when he leaves, the cupboard won’t be so bare. When Bruce leaves this team, even if he does it right now, the roster and cap will be in far better shape than when he got here and even though his tenure will have been disappointing, his philosophy, however poorly executed, will leave us in better shape than Vinny did for the next guy to hopefully build upon. That is at least the silver lining of having a GM who, though bad, isn’t trying to reinvent the wheel in a horrible way like Snyder/Vinny did. That’s all I’m saying.