The Definition of a Loser Franchise

[Fat Stupid Loser]

On ‎1‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 9:07 AM, DJHJR86 said:

Maybe it's just me, but I can't fathom how anyone could honestly think that acquiring Smith, and then extending him, is somehow going to placate the fans going into this offseason.

Have you not been reading the board here?  Its already working on way to many.

[clskinsfan]

My biggest beef with the FO, other than not signing Kirk in 2015 when he was willing to do a LTD, is that they didnt trade him last off season. They could have gotten some real value out of him at that point instead of the comp pick we will end up getting in the end. There is no denying that the FO screwed this up royally over the past 3 years. But they had a chance to redeem themselves last off season and move him to either Kyle or Mcvay.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

48 minutes ago, The Batman said:

Tons of money spent on weapons, say what you like but it was widely reported that a big consideration in hiring Gruden/someone else in that cycle was if they could work with Kirk/RG3, and we gave him chances when the rest of the NFL was laughing at us because of his penchant for multi-interception games early on. I equate being treated well to being given multiple chances to succeed and weapons. Ask Peyton Manning if he’d have enjoyed a team going out and getting weapons of the caliber of Davis, Jackson, and Reed in his tenure in Indy.

 

They hired Gruden for both RG3 and Kirk?  This FO was all-in on RG3 and everything was about RG3 until he was so damn dreadful that both the coach and Scot had to have a come to jesus meeting with management.  All those laughs you heard were the league making fun of us for RG3. I don't recall anyone laughing at us for rolling with Kirk.  He was a 4th rounder that played poorly overall in spots.  Expectations weren't exactly high. 

 

I'm not sure why you would bring up Peyton Manning.  Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, and Edgerin James say hi.

 

But again, this isn't about whether the team treated Kirk "poorly" or not.  I don't think Kirk wants to leave because Bruce is a meanie, I think Kirk wants to leave because he doesn't trust Bruce's ability create a winning environment and roster. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Every time I read folks trying to gloss over the FO's ineptitude, they can type a great big block of text and it all reads to me like when my son used to always say...

 

"Yeah, but...."

 

I constantly see folks want to "Yeah, but" for Dan and the gang.  Yeah, the organization is totally rotten from the top down, but.... 

 

 

 

 

[The Batman]

26 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

They hired Gruden for both RG3 and Kirk?  This FO was all-in on RG3 and everything was about RG3 until he was so damn dreadful that both the coach and Scot had to have a come to jesus meeting with management.  All those laughs you heard were the league making fun of us for RG3. I don't recall anyone laughing at us for rolling with Kirk.  He was a 4th rounder that played poorly overall in spots.  Expectations weren't exactly high. 

 

I'm not sure why you would bring up Peyton Manning.  Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, and Edgerin James say hi.

 

But again, this isn't about whether the team treated Kirk "poorly" or not.  I don't think Kirk wants to leave because Bruce is a meanie, I think Kirk wants to leave because he doesn't trust Bruce's ability create a winning environment and roster. 

 

I think Kirk wants to leave because there are other teams out there willing to pay him more than we are. I don't think it's any more complex than that, and I think those that do are projecting something that we don't really have any evidence is there. Money talks.

 

Also, the youngest person you mentioned of Peyton’s was drafted 14 years before he retired. My point stands. 

17 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Every time I read folks trying to gloss over the FO's ineptitude, they can type a great big block of text and it all reads to me like when my son used to always say...

 

"Yeah, but...."

 

I constantly see folks want to "Yeah, but" for Dan and the gang.  Yeah, the organization is totally rotten from the top down, but.... 

 

 

 

 

 

This is the same way I feel when I see people trying to lump every single move the FO makes into the same over broad "THEY'RE IDIOTS AND AWFUL" category. Just because they are factually not particularly good at their jobs does not mean that every single move, every signing or release, and every trade is a horrible one that damns the franchise to decades of mediocrity. My whole reason for posting in this thread is that there was so much doom and gloom here you would have thought that we folded the team. As I've said several times in this thread, I think Bruce Allen is a below average to bad GM. I don't, however, think he is running the Legion of Doom and secretly murdering puppies, or orchestrating some grand conspiracy to both keep his job AND make sure that the team sucks. I think he's just not real good at it. There have been posts in this thread literally accusing him of sabotaging the fan base. I hate to tell you, we’re not that important. That’s one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard. But regardless of what you or I or anyone thinks about the overall level of competence of this FO, even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and again, and for that reason I think it's ridiculous how many people here are saying this is the death of the Redskins just because it was a decision that Bruce Allen made. That's myopic and makes it impossible for anyone to do anything correctly, and if that is your standard, why even watch the team?

[Birdlives]

The definition of a loser franchise is any franchise that Dan Snyder owns. He’s the only common denominator over the last 20 years of suck. What’s sad is he still doesn’t see it. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 minutes ago, The Batman said:

 

I think Kirk wants to leave because there are other teams out there willing to pay him more than we are. I don't think it's any more complex than that, and I think those that do are projecting something that we don't really have any evidence is there. Money talks.

 

Yeah, because everything about Kirk Cousins says he's a guy that totally needs a few more million, perhaps to make it rain on some strippers, or purchase a few lambos.

 

One consistent message from practically everyone that covers this team since March of 2017 suggests that Kirk simply doesn't want to do business with Bruce Allen.  I guess McCartney and Kirk have done a great job hiding their scent of greed from everyone covering the situation.

[The Batman]

4 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

Yeah, because everything about Kirk Cousins says he's a guy that totally needs a few more million, perhaps to make it rain on some strippers, or purchase a few lambos.

 

One consistent message from practically everyone that covers this team since March of 2017 suggests that Kirk simply doesn't want to do business with Bruce Allen.  I guess McCartney and Kirk have done a great job hiding their scent of greed from everyone covering the situation.

 

You’re conflating greed with maximizing value. I am not saying his wanting a better contract is greed, it’s just acting in his best interests. Not sure where this lambo and strippers nonsense is coming from, but it sort of speaks to my point about projecting. If Kirk didn’t want to deal with Allen at all, why sign his franchise tag twice? That’d really show him if it was all about sticking it to Bruce.

 

Let me ask you a question. There were numerous rumors about Kirk wanting to go to SF with Kyle. Do you believe them?

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

9 minutes ago, The Batman said:

 

You’re conflating greed with maximizing value. I am not saying his wanting a better contract is greed, it’s just acting in his best interests. Not sure where this lambo and strippers nonsense is coming from, but it sort of speaks to my point about projecting. If Kirk didn’t want to deal with Allen at all, why sign his franchise tag twice? That’d really show him if it was all about sticking it to Bruce.

 

Let me ask you a question. There were numerous rumors about Kirk wanting to go to SF with Kyle. Do you believe them?

 

My point is that everything about Kirk and what he's said and has been reported is that he's more concerned with making the right move for his career, rather than getting the most coin.  He's going to get way more money than he will ever be able to spend.  I don't see him going to the highest bidder over a few million bucks.

 

I didn't say it had anything to do with sticking it to Bruce.  Just that he simply doesn't want to tie his career to a Bruce Allen led front office. 

 

I absolutely believe he wanted to go with Kyle.  Kirk has been very emphatic in his praise for the Shanahans well after their departure. In fact, to tie it into this thread, if this franchise wasn't ran by folks that act like children, Kirk would be a 49er and we'd have something in return as a result.

 

But can we please stop de-railing this thread with the Kirk talk?

 

The Kirk situation is absolutely part of what makes this franchise the definition of a loser.  But that wasn't the point of my post that started all this.  My point was that it's pretty damn sad that a guy when given a choice would choose the unknown over what he already knows.  That's not a good look no matter how you chop it up.

[TheBlueIndian]

SEND SNYDER AND ALLEN TO GITMO !

[The Batman]

1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

My point is that everything about Kirk and what he's said and has been reported is that he's more concerned with making the right move for his career, rather than getting the most coin.  He's going to get way more money than he will ever be able to spend.  I don't see him going to the highest bidder over a few million bucks.

 

I didn't say it had anything to do with sticking it to Bruce.  Just that he simply doesn't want to tie his career to a Bruce Allen led front office. 

 

I absolutely believe he wanted to go with Kyle.  Kirk has been very emphatic in his praise for the Shanahans well after their departure. 

 

But can we please stop de-railing this thread with the Kirk talk?

 

The Kirk situation is absolutely part of what makes this franchise the definition of a loser.  But that wasn't the point of my post that started all this.  My point was that it's pretty damn sad that a guy when given a choice would choose the unknown over what he already knows.  That's not a good look no matter how you chop it up.

 

Two things. One, how is Kirk talk derailing this thread? The thread is about a move to acquire Kirk’s replacement and subsequently letting him go being emblematic of a loser franchise. Kirk is integral to the whole point of this thread.

 

Secondly, Kirk was GARBAGE under Kyle Shanahan. GARBAGE. AWFUL. He has only been good under Gruden. How would going to SF, a team with a terrible owner who has run off better coaches than we’ve hired, to play for a guy whose offense is the only one in the NFL that Kirk KNOWS he’s struggled in, who is even more devoid of talent than we are and has nowhere near the weapons, a good move for his career? Or is it that they had a glaring need and a ton of money and the area is nice? Which makes more sense to you?

[NewCliche21]

2 minutes ago, TheBlueIndian said:

SEND SNYDER AND ALLEN TO GITMO !

 

Dude.  What did Gitmo ever do to you?

 

Beautiful thread about this disaster of a team.  I had such high hopes for 2018, and now they're completely dashed.  My goal is the same as yours:  Do whatever it takes to get rid of Bruce Allen and install a premier and permanent GM.

 

Everything @zoony said in his thread about the Browns is dead on.  Philly's in the Super Bowl and we're clogging up the toilet even more three years after the most promising season we've had since I can remember.  Bruce Allen is now worse than Vinny.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 minutes ago, The Batman said:

 

Two things. One, how is Kirk talk derailing this thread? The thread is about a move to acquire Kirk’s replacement and subsequently letting him go being emblematic of a loser franchise. Kirk is integral to the whole point of this thread.

 

Secondly, Kirk was GARBAGE under Kyle Shanahan. GARBAGE. AWFUL. He has only been good under Gruden. How would going to SF, a team with a terrible owner who has run off better coaches than we’ve hired, to play for a guy whose offense is the only one in the NFL that Kirk KNOWS he’s struggled in, who is even more devoid of talent than we are and has nowhere near the weapons, a good move for his career? Or is it that they had a glaring need and a ton of money and the area is nice? Which makes more sense to you?

I can't continue to go down this path with you.  You're not going to change your mind. 

 

I'll leave it at this, you're really overplaying Kirk's spot duty in a lost season with a team that no longer GAF.  Kirk has been effusive in his praise of the Shanahans and how much it meant to him that they believed and continue to believe in him.  Call it corny or whatever you want, but that's what he's said.

 

The primary point is that SF wanted to trade for him and this FO wouldn't even discuss it to spite Kyle Shanahan.  So yeah, I'd say that fits the definition of a loser franchise.

[maebu2]

47 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

They hired Gruden for both RG3 and Kirk?  This FO was all-in on RG3 and everything was about RG3 until he was so damn dreadful that both the coach and Scot had to have a come to jesus meeting with management.  All those laughs you heard were the league making fun of us for RG3. I don't recall anyone laughing at us for rolling with Kirk.  He was a 4th rounder that played poorly overall in spots.  Expectations weren't exactly high. 

 

I'm not sure why you would bring up Peyton Manning.  Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, and Edgerin James say hi.

 

But again, this isn't about whether the team treated Kirk "poorly" or not.  I don't think Kirk wants to leave because Bruce is a meanie, I think Kirk wants to leave because he doesn't trust Bruce's ability create a winning environment and roster. 

 

I believe this to be the case as well since I too don't trust Allen's ability to do that at all! Well said! 

[The Batman]

13 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I can't continue to go down this path with you.  You're not going to change your mind. 

 

I'll leave it at this, you're really overplaying Kirk's spot duty in a lost season with a team that no longer GAF.  Kirk has been effusive in his praise of the Shanahans and how much it meant to him that they believed and continue to believe in him.  Call it corny or whatever you want, but that's what he's said.

 

The primary point is that SF wanted to trade for him and this FO wouldn't even discuss it to spite Kyle Shanahan.  So yeah, I'd say that fits the definition of a loser franchise.

 

 

Three seasons, 9 games started, 14 games played, but I mean I guess so? 

 

Again, you're talking about people who "believed in him." Who did that more, Shanahan or Gruden? Gruden, who staked his position on starting him? 

 

I just don't get all the sentimentality for the Shanahans by Kirk, who continually stunted his growth in favor of RG3, as opposed to Gruden, who actually went to bat for him with no clout whatsoever. However, it seems you're right, and the immovable object has met the unstoppable force. You seem equally resolute that the FO is a bunch of big stupid doo-doo heads that are actively trying to sabotage their own team and that Kirk, our one true hero, has been stabbed in the back by them. Kirk, this Robin Hood of QBs, who is so disgusted by money that he would NEVER let that factor into his decision, despite his willingness to sign a franchise tender twice when 45m was on the line. You don't have to sign them, you know. He could have forced a trade. But he didn't. It made more financial sense for him to sign the tender, just like it makes more financial sense for him now to leave. I don't get why that's so hard to admit.

[The Batman]

25 minutes ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

Dude.  What did Gitmo ever do to you?

 

Beautiful thread about this disaster of a team.  I had such high hopes for 2018, and now they're completely dashed.  My goal is the same as yours:  Do whatever it takes to get rid of Bruce Allen and install a premier and permanent GM.

 

Everything @zoony said in his thread about the Browns is dead on.  Philly's in the Super Bowl and we're clogging up the toilet even more three years after the most promising season we've had since I can remember.  Bruce Allen is now worse than Vinny.

 

NC21, I've always respected your posts as well. I'm legitimately curious what about this trade makes you think your hopes for 2018 are dashed. The way I see it, we have a sort of swap of QBs, give or take in terms of talent, and we lost a slot corner. I don't see why this makes you think the 2018 season, which was going to be a huge success before, is now a giant failure. Honestly I don't think it moves the needle much for this season one way or the other.

 

I'm not really sure how anyone can say we're worse than the Browns, or even in the same conversation. We're .500ish over the last 3 seasons. They're .090. They have an owner just as bad as ours, and if you don't think so, you don't know enough about him. Again, research the Tennessee/Greg Schiano debacle. Threatening state congresspeople over his lust for Schiano, and he doesn't even own that team. It's knee-jerk city around here right now. It's absolutely laughable that some of our fans are comparing our team unfavorably to a team like the Browns who right now are stuck in a period of suck so bad that the NFL has never seen it. "B-b-but they have two firsts! The future is bright!" They also had 2 firsts in 2012. And 2014. And 2015. And they're still the owner of the NFL's only second ever winless season. Get a grip.

 

Philly is in the Super Bowl, which is a fact. They were also a dumpster fire like 2 years ago. For those of you who think Bruce is worse than Vinny though, I think it speaks to the recovery we've all made as a fanbase that we can put rose colored glasses like that on it. Vinny hired Zorn, dude. Vinny gave Haynesworth 100m. Vinny hired Spurrier. Vinny drafted Patrick Ramsey, and Colt Brennan, and traded a 2nd for Jason Taylor who played in 13 games. Vinny signed Mark Carrier and Jeff George and Deion Sanders. Bruce sucks, but for the love of God, there are DEGREES OF SUCKING. How can you possibly say he's as bad as that guy?

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

13 minutes ago, The Batman said:

 However, it seems you're right, and the immovable object has met the unstoppable force. You seem equally resolute that the FO is a bunch of big doo-doo heads that are actively trying to sabotage their own team and that Kirk, our one true hero, has been stabbed in the back by them. Kirk, this Robin Hood of QBs, who is so disgusted by money that he would NEVER let that factor

Reading comprehension is not your friend it would appear.  Nowhere did I say any of that.  I find it ironic that the same guy who said the FO is chock full of idiots earlier is now wearing a cape for them.  It all but confirms my point that fans constantly "yeah, but" when it comes to the FO.  It's an inherent trait by a many fans to take up for the team like family even if they know the family members are losers.

 

Just to be clear, again, this doesn't have anything to do with Kirk feeling 'back stabbed' or 'sabotaged'.  It has to do with Kirk developing a dislike for the way things run around here over a significant period of time.  The guy flat out told you he would have signed a LTD after the 2015 season.  It was immediately after the 2016 season where Bruce downplayed Kirk to his agent, failed to make a legit offer, he lost the OC he respected and credited for his success, he lost 2 1k yard receivers, and the GM.  After all that happened, yeah - he probably had a change of heart and realized that he would have the power to choose his destination rather than the destination choose him.

[The Batman]

19 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Reading comprehension is not your friend it would appear.  Nowhere did I say any of that.  I find it ironic that the same guy who said the FO is chock full of idiots earlier is now wearing a cape for them.  It all but confirms my point that fans constantly "yeah, but" when it comes to the FO.  It's an inherent trait by a many fans to take up for the team like family even if they know the family members are losers.

 

Just to be clear, again, this doesn't have anything to do with Bruce feeling 'back stabbed' or 'sabotaged'.  It has to do with Kirk developing a dislike for the way things run around here over a significant period of time.  The guy flat out told you he would have signed a LTD after the 2015 season.  It was immediately after the 2016 season where Bruce downplayed Kirk to his agent, failed to make a legit offer, he lost the OC he respected and credited for his success, he lost 2 1k yard receivers, and the GM.  After all that happened, yeah - he probably had a change of heart and realized that he would have the power to choose his destination rather than the destination choose him.

 

Bolded: OF COURSE HE SAID THAT. It worked. It gave him leverage. This is a negotiation, and that tactic worked. Who cares if it's true? Were you there? If he would have signed a LTD, why didn't he? You know for sure none was offered? Or was it because it made him look even smarter in retrospect for betting on himself and it helped him drive his price up? Apply Occam's razor here. The solution that makes the most sense is that he stayed with us when we offered to pay him the most (the two franchise tag years, in which everyone and their mother said he had no financial incentive to sign a LTD and surprise, he didn't) and then didn't when we didn't. Period at the end.

 

Ironic, however, that you chide me for reading comprehension when this post also completely misses what I was saying. I never said anything about Bruce being stabbed in the back, I said Kirk felt stabbed in the back. Comprehension is a friend to neither of us, it would seem.

 

If reading comprehension is my vice, selective reading is yours. Let's review.

 

A selection of quotes by me in this thread.

 

"We save some money and can build the roster the right way (I hope, but don't expect) while having a QB with potentially 4-5 good seasons left and time to find his replacement."

 

"I know our FO is a bunch of idiots but it is very easy after the fact for his camp to cry foul about the offers they weren't made."

 

"We aren't run worse than the Browns in our own league, let alone teams in other sports. We're just not run well."

 

"Based on what, though? Please understand, I don't like Bruce either. But last year's draft was actually pretty good by most people's accounts, and we've made some measured plays in FA, some of which have actually worked out pretty well. We haven't signed any players in FA under Bruce that were bloated contracts and made some solid depth moves. I don't want Bruce as the GM either but implying that he's the worst in the league I think is just hyperbole that doesn't have much basis in fact. There are some truly awful GMs out there. We have to be realistic with our roster and our FO staff and our owner to take things in their proper perspective and I just don't think that it's as bad as some are making it out to be, nor as nefarious. Are there people who could do better? I have no doubt."

 

"He has been bad to awful at times, but not in Vinny's league." 

 

"I'm not battling to defend anyone's honor. Our FO is chock full of idiots."

 

"No, not at all. I don't think he is. I think he's a below average to possibly bad GM. I just don't think he's HANDS DOWN OBVIOUSLY THE WORST IN THE LEAGUE.  Hyperbole. I would rather have lots of other GMs, but there are a few here and there I would definitely take my chances with Bruce instead of."

 

"Ergo, I think he's bad, just not the worst, and I'd rather have someone else, but the rivers of hate and hyperbole are a little blind to the facts of the case."

 

"I agree that the franchise is a mess from an organizational standpoint."

 

"As I've said several times in this thread, I think Bruce Allen is a below average to bad GM."

 

This is but a sampling. You also have failed to respond to my point, not about sticking it to Bruce, but about being unwilling to deal with Bruce. If this was the case, why did he not force a trade? Why did he just take Bruce's money if he didn't want to deal with Bruce? Because it was stupid not to. Just like it's stupid not to go get a bigger deal if you can.

 

But sure, as the above posts illustrate, I'm just wearing a cape for this FO. You know, I'm beginning to think some of those "great big block(s) of text" you mentioned might contain some surprising insight if you actually read them.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I read the very first part of your response and your mental gymnastics have yawned me to sleep.  You win.

 

BTW, I edited Bruce to Kirk, although that should have been pretty obvious that it was an error.

[NewCliche21]

20 minutes ago, The Batman said:

 

NC21, I've always respected your posts as well. I'm legitimately curious what about this trade makes you think your hopes for 2018 are dashed. The way I see it, we have a sort of swap of QBs, give or take in terms of talent, and we lost a slot corner. I don't see why this makes you think the 2018 season, which was going to be a huge success before, is now a giant failure. Honestly I don't think it moves the needle much for this season one way or the other.

 

I'm not really sure how anyone can say we're worse than the Browns, or even in the same conversation. We're .500ish over the last 3 seasons. They're .090. They have an owner just as bad as ours, and if you don't think so, you don't know enough about him. Again, research the Tennessee/Greg Schiano debacle. Threatening state congresspeople over his lust for Schiano, and he doesn't even own that team. It's knee-jerk city around here right now. It's absolutely laughable that some of our fans are comparing our team unfavorably to a team like the Browns who right now are stuck in a period of suck so bad that the NFL has never seen it. "B-b-but they have two firsts! The future is bright!" They also had 2 firsts in 2012. And 2014. And 2015. And they're still the owner of the NFL's only second ever winless season. Get a grip.

 

Philly is in the Super Bowl, which is a fact. They were also a dumpster fire like 2 years ago. For those of you who think Bruce is worse than Vinny though, I think it speaks to the recovery we've all made as a fanbase that we can put rose colored glasses like that on it. Vinny hired Zorn, dude. Vinny gave Haynesworth 100m. Vinny hired Spurrier. Vinny drafted Patrick Ramsey, and Colt Brennan, and traded a 2nd for Jason Taylor who played in 13 games. Vinny signed Mark Carrier and Jeff George and Deion Sanders. Bruce sucks, but for the love of God, there are DEGREES OF SUCKING. How can you possibly say he's as bad as that guy?

 

1)  You respect my posts?  What the hell is wrong with you?!?!?!

 

2)  We've demonstrated to anyone who comes here that we can't recognize talent and that we'll drop you even if you're one of the best in the league.  Breeland has a good shot of being gone.  Norman has already expressed forms of regret for being here since we're not going to be champions.  That's our top three corners either gone or unhappy.

 

3)  Kirk was the guy.  I don't care to argue it, but Kirk was the guy and we would've won with him.  Against Seattle he threw a dime to Doctson to win the game.  Smith can't make that throw.  Kirk did.

 

4)  Giving up a pick and a player for someone older and not a huge step up is just stupid, stupid, stupid.

 

5)  Vinny didn't make half of those hires.  Snyder refused Williams and tried to hire Fassell until we all flipped our **** and nobody wanted the job so he took Zorn.  Snyder is responsible for the splash players and Haynesworth signed the 40 million guarantee under Shanahan/Allen.  Snyder dumped Schotty because he didn't have any say and THEN hired back Vinny after getting the shiny new Spurrier.  Ramsey was destroyed under a non-existent offensive line.  Snyder blew up the 1999 team and added his fantasy roster to the 2000 team, that wasn't Vinny either.  Don't get me wrong, Vinny made a hell of a lot of mistakes (Arch Deluxe as a prime one), but what Allen has done has been atrocious.  Probably worse because he at least gave us hope and then kept dashing it away.

 

5)  The Browns just completely re-did their front office, have over $100 million in cap space, and five picks in the first two rounds.  The Browns of Week 17 are not even close to the same team right now.

 

6)  Yes, Philly was a dumpster fire and is now in the Super Bowl.  Why can they do it in two years and Bruce can't do **** in eight?  You're making my point there.

[The Batman]

1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I read the very first part of your response and your mental gymnastics have yawned me to sleep.  You win.

 

BTW, I edited Bruce to Kirk, although that should have been pretty obvious that it was an error.

 

Okay. It wasn't, since you had their names in close succession, which seemed to be indicative of you trying to differentiate them, but I understand now.

 

Hooray! I can finally go to bed!

[goskins10]

On 1/31/2018 at 1:56 PM, pjfootballer said:

 

I can't say concretely what was offered and what he countered.  I don't think anyone truly knows but the FO and his agent.  But I think we can all agree that it would be significantly lower then what he will be paid now.

 

I'm not a Kirk fanboy.  I think he's been the best QB we've had in a while, but by no means do I think he was the savior.  Again, I understand why they made the trade.  I'm OK with Alex as I think he's comparable to Kirk, but I think his age, the timing and giving up Fuller is what irks me. 

 

I know that as of now, there was zero chance we'd re-sign Kirk, so I understand the move. I'd rather have Alex, then Colt McCoy.  I think my main point about my post was, don't give the FO any kudos for making the best of a bad situation, when they had 3 years (including Scot) to not get to this point.  They are digging themselves out of their own hole.

 

This is mostly where I am. I don't hate the trade on it own merits (I stated why earlier and I tend to agree with @The Batman in general), only, and I mean only if you accept that Kirk was never signing a LTD here. None of that lets the FO off the hook. They **** the bed through this entire process and worked their way into a corner. It is their fault they got there period. Kirk's team just simply played the game better - and it's not even close. 

 

And while I do not hate the trade on it's own: OK, they saved some CAP, what will the do with it? Will it be spent in a productive manner? I do not have much confidence as bruce seems to be more interested in saving CAP than really building a team. That CAP is no good if just sits on the shelf. Sadly, this is part of the reason many of us were not as worried about paying Kirk the extra money - if you are going to spend it, why not on a good QB, the most important position on the team, especially when you have little confidence in the FO decision making. History tells us not to get too excited about how those resources will get spent. 

 

This is where @Rufus T Firefly (along with several other good points) is spot on - the ceiling with this FO is just above average at best. This approach cannot get you to a championship. Constantly "winning" the contracts with every player and staying away from higher paid players either homegrown or FAs can only get you so far. You have to use those resources some time. And you have to draft well. 

 

An argument can be made that bruces drafts have not been the worst. However, there can also be an argument made that 2014 and 2017 (the only years he as on his own), he was heavily influenced by Scot M. This draft will tell - in theory. Either way, even if they draft decently. You still have the winning every contract issue which IMO is bruces biggest downfall. There is just very little chance this ends well. 

 

[Veryoldschool]

I have been a major Kirk Cousins booster, maybe the biggest on the board.  I agree with much of OP who calls it a loser mentality.  For me it is one Snyder marketing fumblerooski after another. 

 

I will believe the Skins if they say Kirk didn't want to play for them, I think that is true.  I don't think Kirk was going to sign a LTD with them no matter how much they offered.  They probably missed their last chance to sign a long term deal when they failed to embrace him immediately after the end of 2016.  I think they welched on the promise of overpaying if he could replicate is breakout first starting season.  He played even better and instead paying him they played hardball and blew their last chance.  When Allen finally got around to following up on his FU low ball offer Cousins said, I am good with a 1 year deal and I would like to evaluate the franchise.  A very polite FU.

 

I blame Snyder for this not Allen.  Allen is merely Snyder's 7 figure sock puppet, Snyder runs his business.  They lost Cousins last year and Kirk made it clear when he publicly state he didn't want to discuss the contract until March.  A 29M transition tag would have gotten the Skins another season of Cousins because he would not sign a tender from another team that the Skins could match and hold him hostage. 

 

I don't know how Smith will do in 2018.  Hopefully, the Skins will be a lot healthier than they were in 2017.  I can't remember a team with so many injuries.  With good health maybe the Skins can make the playoffs with Smith.  It's a shame this deal cost them a promising young CB and a 3rd pick but we should look on the bright side, this may work well enough for Bruce to keep his job another year...

 

I wish I didn't have to wait until March to find out where Kirk is going

[The Batman]

Just now, goskins10 said:

 

This is mostly where I am. I don't hate the trade on it own merits (I stated why earlier and I tend to agree with @The Batman in general), only, and I mean only if you accept that Kirk was never signing a LTD here. None of that lets the FO off the hook. They **** the bed through this entire process and worked their way into a corner. It is their fault they got there period. Kirk's team just simply played the game better - and it's not even close. 

 

 

Correct. This is what I've been trying to say the entire time. The FO screwed up, but Kirk played the situation masterfully, and anyone trying to demonize EITHER PARTY is probably wrong. They just did a business transaction and Kirk's side did better and the FO screwed it up. No nefarious intent, just poor execution.

 

However, I will say this once again. "Winning every contract" is EXACTLY what the fans SCREAMED for for years. We would overpay over and over and over and we would cry and cry and cry about our limited cap and why we couldn't spend less and get better deals and stop overpaying cap for old veterans and folks, this is what it looks like. This is more a missive to ES' past than anything else but just because you spend less doesn't mean you're good.

[Mr. Sinister]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

Yeah, because everything about Kirk Cousins says he's a guy that totally needs a few more million, perhaps to make it rain on some strippers, or purchase a few lambos.

 

One consistent message from practically everyone that covers this team since March of 2017 suggests that Kirk simply doesn't want to do business with Bruce Allen.  I guess McCartney and Kirk have done a great job hiding their scent of greed from everyone covering the situation.

 

It's not greed to go and seek what your services are worth