The Definition of a Loser Franchise

[CjSuAvE22]

100 percent agree with the original post, I have a bad feeling bruce allen may be trying to sabotage the fan base. 

[Boss_Hogg]

3 minutes ago, CjSuAvE22 said:

100 percent agree with the original post, I have a bad feeling bruce allen may be trying to sabotage the fan base. 

 

Why? What does he have to gain from this?

 

I just think he's a bad football GM, possibly the worst in the league now that the Browns have hired real football people. 

[The Batman]

6 minutes ago, Boss_Hogg said:

 

Why? What does he have to gain from this?

 

I just think he's a bad football GM, possibly the worst in the league now that the Browns have hired real football people. 

 

Based on what, though? Please understand, I don't like Bruce either. But last year's draft was actually pretty good by most people's accounts, and we've made some measured plays in FA, some of which have actually worked out pretty well. We haven't signed any players in FA under Bruce that were bloated contracts and made some solid depth moves. I don't want Bruce as the GM either but implying that he's the worst in the league I think is just hyperbole that doesn't have much basis in fact. There are some truly awful GMs out there. We have to be realistic with our roster and our FO staff and our owner to take things in their proper perspective and I just don't think that it's as bad as some are making it out to be, nor as nefarious. Are there people who could do better? I have no doubt. Are there people who could do worse? Ryan Grigson would like to have a word with you.

[CjSuAvE22]

9 minutes ago, Boss_Hogg said:

 

Why? What does he have to gain from this?

 

I just think he's a bad football GM, possibly the worst in the league now that the Browns have hired real football people. 

Because he knows 70 percent of this fanbase is against him...hes brought nothing better than vinny Cerrato actually we may be worse....

[The Batman]

2 minutes ago, CjSuAvE22 said:

Because he knows 70 percent of this fanbase is against him...hes brought nothing better than vinny Cerrato actually we may be worse....

 

We are not worse than we were under Vinny Cerrato. He is not worse at personnel than Vinny Cerrato was. Please go back and read up on the personnel that those teams had, the records we had aside from those achieved under a legendary head coach, the drafts, the hemorrhaging of picks, the 100m contracts for players who were gone in 2 years. He is not even close to Vinny. He has been bad to awful at times, but not in Vinny's league.

[Veretax]

HEre's something I just realized.

We have 2 somewhat experienced quarterbacks.

we were here a few years ago.  Their names were Rex Grossman and John Beck.  One was a Terrrible QB but had been to a Super Bowl, the other was praised by many coaches, but had no pelts as Doc Walker would say.

I'll lave it up to you to determine which of Colt McCoy, and Alex Smith is Rex or Beck.  Except that Smith is getting a pretty pricey contract, one site I saw suggested 23.5 Mil avg for 5 years or something. with about 17 of it guaranteed each year.  This is boom or bust time frankly.


Time for Jay to step up and show he is worthy of that extension, if he and Alex don't manufacture play off wins within 2 years, I expect both to be canned and on the street. Because now Jay has no excuses nor does Bruce.  They have an experienced Playoff QB now. 


(I wanted to keep Kirk or let him walk and start over, but its obvious the FO felt that not having a QB to market for Free Agents would hurt us a lot this year, and maybe next.)

I'm sorry for Fuller, I loved that man, I wish him well and happy returns later, I hope :/

This may be it, its win or bust.

[The Batman]

2 minutes ago, Veretax said:

HEre's something I just realized.

We have 2 somewhat experienced quarterbacks.

we were here a few years ago.  Their names were Rex Grossman and John Beck.  One was a Terrrible QB but had been to a Super Bowl, the other was praised by many coaches, but had no pelts as Doc Walker would say.

I'll lave it up to you to determine which of Colt McCoy, and Alex Smith is Rex or Beck.  Except that Smith is getting a pretty pricey contract, one site I saw suggested 23.5 Mil avg for 5 years or something. with about 17 of it guaranteed each year.  This is boom or bust time frankly.


Time for Jay to step up and show he is worthy of that extension, if he and Alex don't manufacture play off wins within 2 years, I expect both to be canned and on the street. Because now Jay has no excuses nor does Bruce.  They have an experienced Playoff QB now. 


(I wanted to keep Kirk or let him walk and start over, but its obvious the FO felt that not having a QB to market for Free Agents would hurt us a lot this year, and maybe next.)

I'm sorry for Fuller, I loved that man, I wish him well and happy returns later, I hope :/

This may be it, its win or bust.

 

I'm with you in spirit, but comparing Smith to Grossman or Beck is grotesquely underselling Smith. Neither of them were anywhere close to the QB he has been. Not even a little bit. 

[Boss_Hogg]

15 minutes ago, The Batman said:

 

Based on what, though? Please understand, I don't like Bruce either. But last year's draft was actually pretty good by most people's accounts, and we've made some measured plays in FA, some of which have actually worked out pretty well. We haven't signed any players in FA under Bruce that were bloated contracts and made some solid depth moves. I don't want Bruce as the GM either but implying that he's the worst in the league I think is just hyperbole that doesn't have much basis in fact. There are some truly awful GMs out there. We have to be realistic with our roster and our FO staff and our owner to take things in their proper perspective and I just don't think that it's as bad as some are making it out to be, nor as nefarious. Are there people who could do better? I have no doubt. Are there people who could do worse? Ryan Grigson would like to have a word with you.

 

Last year's draft was Scot's. He said it on twitter that the Redskins followed his draft board to a T save one player

[The Batman]

1 minute ago, Boss_Hogg said:

 

Last year's draft was Scot's. He said it on twitter that the Redskins followed his draft board to a T save one player

 

He's got a reason to say that. He got fired by the team and runs a consulting service. Stands to reason that he'd take credit for what some said was a decent draft, he's got a financial incentive to do so. Even if it's true, which I don't know if it is, some here would claim that simply out of spite Allen wouldn't have followed a Scot draft to begin with, and that kind of notion is what I take issue with. I don't think the dude is actively trying to sabotage the process. He's just not as good at it as some people are. But at the same time, there's a lot of judgment of Allen as an executive by speculation and hearsay and not the cold hard facts. The actual results of Allen's tenure haven't been that bad yet. We don't have much of a choice as fans but to see if they are good or bad in a few years' time.

[LightningBuggs]

47 minutes ago, The Batman said:

 

 

They've put "real smart football people" into their FO before. Multiple personnel guys who were respected other places came there and crashed and burned under Haslam. If you have any doubt that Haslam is a worse owner than Snyder, ask Tennessee fans about Greg Schiano, and he doesn't even own that team. They drafted Manziel and Weeden with firsts, as well as Trent Richardson and Barkevious Mingo. Premium picks mean nothing if you're the Browns, and this season they set a record only achieved once previously for futility, after scoring 1 win the year prior, and kept that coach. We have fielded some "competitive" teams too. We were one game out of the playoffs the last 2 years and made it the year before that. It's just silly to think we're the WORST RUN IN ALL OF SPORTS when we're just actually pretty mediocre. It sucks as a fan, but realistically we aren't. Not by any metric that makes sense.

 

Fun fact: one of those ostensibly fake dumb soccer lizard people that the Browns had in their FO before this house cleaning was former ES superstar Morocco Brown, in the role of VP of player personnel. I have fond memories of a time when we were told that not hiring him sealed our fate and that he would go on to some other lucky team and GM their way to multiple Super Bowls. The more you know.

 

And they've still won one game in two years. One game. Imagine a scenario where the Browns use the #3 pick on a stud RB and their other first on a highly touted QB. They did that already, and they both sucked. And the part I bolded is literally insane. Completely insane. Please, please tell me that's just off the cuff and you weren't thinking.

 

There is no one on the Skins roster that has the talent that Josh Gordon has.  Yes, he has off the field problems but if he stays clean he'll be a stud.  Corey Coleman was a first round pick like Doctson.  Let's call them equal.  That leaves the Skins with Crowder as better than their slot guy.

 

I realize you're battling to defend the Redskins honor in this so I'll just bow out and we'll agree to disagree.

[SkinFanInMinn]

29 minutes ago, The Batman said:

 

We are not worse than we were under Vinny Cerrato. He is not worse at personnel than Vinny Cerrato was. Please go back and read up on the personnel that those teams had, the records we had aside from those achieved under a legendary head coach, the drafts, the hemorrhaging of picks, the 100m contracts for players who were gone in 2 years. He is not even close to Vinny. He has been bad to awful at times, but not in Vinny's league.

Really?  What was Vinny's record in his time here vs Allen's?  Allen is so much better but we have a WORSE record with him?  How's that work exactly?

 

As they say "you are what your record is".

[The Batman]

1 minute ago, LightningBuggs said:

 

There is no one on the Skins roster that has the talent that Josh Gordon has.  Yes, he has off the field problems but if he stays clean he'll be a stud.  Corey Coleman was a first round pick like Doctson.  Let's call them equal.  That leaves the Skins with Crowder as better than their slot guy.

 

I realize you're battling to defend the Redskins honor in this so I'll just bow out and we'll agree to disagree.

 

I'm not battling to defend anyone's honor. Our FO is chock full of idiots. I just happen to think you're completely wrong about the receiving corps in question. Josh Gordon has 1 season of 1600 yards and 9 TDs. Stellar numbers, particularly with subpar QBs. Terrelle Pryor had 1007 yards and 4 TDs with the Browns the year before last, and this year Gordon had 335 yards and a TD in 5 games. 330 yards and 0 TDs in 5 games in 2014. He is a talented receiver with one good year and a whole lot of nothing to go with a substance abuse problem so bad he's been suspended more than any NFL player in recent memory. Corey Coleman you can call equal to Doctson if you want, but he had 3 times as many TDs as Coleman did this year in semi-limited action. Brian Quick and Josh Gordon were both 2nd rounders so we can call them equal too, right? Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Coleman and Doctson are equal. Crowder right now has had several seasons in a row significantly better than Gordon's, but hey, his QB is better. Still unfair to talk about Gordon and just act like Crowder is a castaway. Also the 'Skins have Jordan Reed and Vernon Davis at TE, and who do the Browns have, exactly?

 

 And if you think Gordon is better than Garcon or Jackson, both receivers that Cousins had here and still couldn't win with, I don't know what to tell you. Right now, Gordon is a guy with physical skills who has had one good year and virtually no production since. 

[DJD2]

Some days I just hate this ****ing team.

[The Batman]

9 minutes ago, SkinFanInMinn said:

Really?  What was Vinny's record in his time here vs Allen's?  Allen is so much better but we have a WORSE record with him?  How's that work exactly?

 

As they say "you are what your record is".

 

You are what your record is as a GM, even though you're including years where the "GM" was HIRED by the man in charge of the team, Shanahan. I am referring to the time in which Allen was perceived to have called the shots, I.E. after Shanahan was gone. In those years, he's at .500. Vinny was at .430. There are also lots of other reasons why Vinny was worse than Allen. We can discuss them more in-depth if you'd like.

[Tsailand]

12 minutes ago, The Batman said:

Terrelle Pryor had 1007 yards and 4 TDs with the Browns the year before last,

 

Because they threw at him 140 times.

[Probos]

54 minutes ago, The Batman said:

 

Based on what, though? Please understand, I don't like Bruce either. But last year's draft was actually pretty good by most people's accounts, and we've made some measured plays in FA, some of which have actually worked out pretty well. We haven't signed any players in FA under Bruce that were bloated contracts and made some solid depth moves. I don't want Bruce as the GM either but implying that he's the worst in the league I think is just hyperbole that doesn't have much basis in fact. There are some truly awful GMs out there. We have to be realistic with our roster and our FO staff and our owner to take things in their proper perspective and I just don't think that it's as bad as some are making it out to be, nor as nefarious. Are there people who could do better? I have no doubt. Are there people who could do worse? Ryan Grigson would like to have a word with you.

 

Oook.....so, you'r saying he's a good GM.  Gotcha....

[Wildbunny]

53 minutes ago, The Batman said:

There are some truly awful GMs out there.

Honestly, if he's not worst, he's in the list of those GMs.

 

Not so many of them, actually none, ever tagged a franchise QB twice. Let him go through FA. Trade an up and coming rising star in the D, and probably the best at his position for an old aged QB that is most likely cashing in one last time...

 

He also whiffed on the RG3 thing, whiffed in the McNabb stuff, and lots of FA he bring here...

 

I can try as much as I want to, I can hardly think of stuff Bruce has gotten right since coming here...

 

45 minutes ago, Veretax said:

This may be it, its win or bust.

 

Chances are:

Win: 1%

Bust: 99%

[JCB]

It's like there's a concerted effort to reject homegrown talent on this team. I swear, even a halfway reasonable front office would have learned from Clark, Pierce, Lorenzo, et. al. (And drafted Calais over Sleepy Fred, just saying.)

 

Oh well, at least the moves are playing well in the locker room . . . 

[CjSuAvE22]

1 hour ago, The Batman said:

 

We are not worse than we were under Vinny Cerrato. He is not worse at personnel than Vinny Cerrato was. Please go back and read up on the personnel that those teams had, the records we had aside from those achieved under a legendary head coach, the drafts, the hemorrhaging of picks, the 100m contracts for players who were gone in 2 years. He is not even close to Vinny. He has been bad to awful at times, but not in Vinny's league.

Bruce Allen has a 36 pct win rate with the skins 

 

Cerrato has a 43 percent win rate....we are worse off this fool of a president is garbage win I don’t care if the personnel is better in your eyes win pct rate is the factor winning is everything this is football.

[The Batman]

43 minutes ago, Tsailand said:

 

Because they threw at him 140 times.

 

And Gordon's only good season they threw at him 159 times. The dude has an average catch rate around 50%, 42.9% this last season. I'm just saying, he's not a top tier WR in the NFL just because he gave someone one good fantasy season. 

42 minutes ago, Probos said:

 

Oook.....so, you'r saying he's a good GM.  Gotcha....

 

No, not at all. I don't think he is. I think he's a below average to possibly bad GM. I just don't think he's HANDS DOWN OBVIOUSLY THE WORST IN THE LEAGUE.  Hyperbole. I would rather have lots of other GMs, but there are a few here and there I would definitely take my chances with Bruce instead of. To recap: no. Not what you said, at all.

38 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

Honestly, if he's not worst, he's in the list of those GMs.

 

Not so many of them, actually none, ever tagged a franchise QB twice. Let him go through FA. Trade an up and coming rising star in the D, and probably the best at his position for an old aged QB that is most likely cashing in one last time...

 

He also whiffed on the RG3 thing, whiffed in the McNabb stuff, and lots of FA he bring here...

 

I can try as much as I want to, I can hardly think of stuff Bruce has gotten right since coming here...

 

Okay, although this will have me forever branded as Bruce's sockpuppet account, I'll try. Jonathan Allen. Jamison Crowder. Ironically, the very same Kendall Fuller people are now very upset over losing. Scherff. Trent. Moses. Kerrigan. Zach Brown this year. Garcon. Cousins, also ironically. 

 

Ordinarily I would not give Allen credit nor blame for anything done while Shanahan was here, since he was unequivocally his boss. However, since you seem inclined to saddle him with Shanahan's failures, it's only fair to give him credit for Shanahan's successes. 

 

Regarding the bolded part: good Lord, the hyperbole in this place. Fuller had a very solid year. HE IS NOT THE BEST CORNER IN THE LEAGUE. NO ONE IN NFL CIRCLES THINKS SO. 

 

Now, for some things Allen has screwed up: RG3. McNabb. (Again, giving Allen blame for Shanahan's decisions, which I would not do, but I digress). In his own tenure, firing Scot. RJF. Jason Hatcher. Not getting rid of Cousins sooner if this is where it was going. Plenty of other things. Just as an example, however, has Allen while in charge ever made a decision so stupid as trading a 1st round pick for Trent Richardson AFTER knowing the Browns had already screwed it up? No. Not even close, in my estimation. Ergo, I think he's bad, just not the worst, and I'd rather have someone else, but the rivers of hate and hyperbole are a little blind to the facts of the case.

4 minutes ago, CjSuAvE22 said:

Bruce Allen has a 36 pct win rate with the skins 

 

Cerrato has a 43 percent win rate....we are worse off this fool of a president is garbage win I don’t care if the personnel is better in your eyes win pct rate is the factor winning is everything this is football.

 

So you're treating Allen's time working directly under Shanahan in which it was widely reported that Shanahan had final say on all football matters as the same as when Allen took Shanahan's old job. That makes no sense to me, but okay. Allen also hired the coach responsible for one of only 3 Redskins playoff appearances that weren't under Joe Jackson Gibbs since 1976. A coach who had us one horrible Cousins game against a 2 win team away from back to back playoff appearances, something we have not done without Gibbs since 1974. But sure. Vinny was better.

[petey hodge]

Now I'm not saying being a Redskin fan year after year is this bad, but....

[CjSuAvE22]

2 minutes ago, The Batman said:

 

And Gordon's only good season they threw at him 159 times. The dude has an average catch rate around 50%, 42.9% this last season. I'm just saying, he's not a top tier WR in the NFL just because he gave someone one good fantasy season. 

 

No, not at all. I don't think he is. I think he's a below average to possibly bad GM. I just don't think he's HANDS DOWN OBVIOUSLY THE WORST IN THE LEAGUE.  Hyperbole. I would rather have lots of other GMs, but there are a few here and there I would definitely take my chances with Bruce instead of. To recap: no. Not what you said, at all.

 

Okay, although this will have me forever branded as Bruce's sockpuppet account, I'll try. Jonathan Allen. Jamison Crowder. Ironically, the very same Kendall Fuller people are now very upset over losing. Scherff. Trent. Moses. Kerrigan. Zach Brown this year. Garcon. Cousins, also ironically. 

 

Ordinarily I would not give Allen credit nor blame for anything done while Shanahan was here, since he was unequivocally his boss. However, since you seem inclined to saddle him with Shanahan's failures, it's only fair to give him credit for Shanahan's successes. 

 

Regarding the bolded part: good Lord, the hyperbole in this place. Fuller had a very solid year. HE IS NOT THE BEST CORNER IN THE LEAGUE. NO ONE IN NFL CIRCLES THINKS SO. 

 

Now, for some things Allen has screwed up: RG3. McNabb. (Again, giving Allen blame for Shanahan's decisions, which I would not do, but I digress). In his own tenure, firing Scot. RJF. Jason Hatcher. Not getting rid of Cousins sooner if this is where it was going. Plenty of other things. Just as an example, however, has Allen while in charge ever made a decision so stupid as trading a 1st round pick for Trent Richardson AFTER knowing the Browns had already screwed it up? No. Not even close, in my estimation. Ergo, I think he's bad, just not the worst, and I'd rather have someone else, but the rivers of hate and hyperbole are a little blind to the facts of the case.

 

So you're treating Allen's time working directly under Shanahan in which it was widely reported that Shanahan had final say on all football matters as the same as when Allen took Shanahan's old job. That makes no sense to me, but okay.

Shanahan had say on all football matters?!?!? Open your eyes he didn’t even want rgiii......come on man. 

[The Batman]

1 minute ago, CjSuAvE22 said:

Shanahan had say on all football matters?!?!? Open your eyes he didn’t even want rgiii......come on man. 

 

Yes. He did. Wikipedia work for you?

 

"Shortly after Allen joined the Redskins, Jim Zorn and his staff were fired, allowing Mike Shanahan to be hired as head coach and executive vice president of football operations. While Shanahan had the final say in football decisions, he and Allen split the duties of general manager, working in an arrangement similar to how Bill Belichick and Scott Pioli operated in New England."

 

Here's a Jason Reid article from 2011 that might shed a little more light for you:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/mike-shanahan-needs-bruce-allen-to-save-him-from-himself/2011/11/15/gIQAzGwMPN_story.html?utm_term=.a9d536edd2f0

 

I'm sorry to inform you, but you're just wrong on this one, point blank.

[CjSuAvE22]

2 minutes ago, The Batman said:

 

Yes. He did. Wikipedia work for you?

 

"Shortly after Allen joined the Redskins, Jim Zorn and his staff were fired, allowing Mike Shanahan to be hired as head coach and executive vice president of football operations. While Shanahan had the final say in football decisions, he and Allen split the duties of general manager, working in an arrangement similar to how Bill Belichick and Scott Pioli operated in New England."

 

Here's a Jason Reid article from 2011 that might shed a little more light for you:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/mike-shanahan-needs-bruce-allen-to-save-him-from-himself/2011/11/15/gIQAzGwMPN_story.html?utm_term=.a9d536edd2f0

 

I'm sorry to inform you, but you're just wrong on this one, point blank.

You are very naive and don’t tell me I’m wrong your main point was we are better than we were under Cerrato and that simply is not true....

[The Batman]

3 minutes ago, CjSuAvE22 said:

You are very naive and don’t tell me I’m wrong your main point was we are better than we were under Cerrato and that simply is not true....

 

Okay. I'm naive because of the secret Bruce Allen conspiracy to wrest power but deflect blame onto the man who literally told Snyder to hire him in the first place. Also, I edited my comment so you may not have seen this.

 

So you're treating Allen's time working directly under Shanahan in which it was widely reported that Shanahan had final say on all football matters as the same as when Allen took Shanahan's old job. That makes no sense to me, but okay. Allen also hired the coach responsible for one of only 3 Redskins playoff appearances that weren't under Joe Jackson Gibbs since 1976. A coach who had us one horrible Cousins game against a 2 win team away from back to back playoff appearances, something we have not done without Gibbs since 1974. But sure. Vinny was better.

 

How many playoff coaches did Vinny hire other than the 3x Super Bowl winner? I'll wait.