The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

15 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

There was a tie?...Who wanted Payne besides the tiebreaker?

 

Had to be Doug.  It would seem Smith has assumed the role Scot played.  Where he makes the board but the other dudes make the call.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

Had to be Doug.  It would seem Smith has assumed the role Scot played.  Where he makes the board but the other dudes make the call.

 

So, Jay and Kyle versus Doug and, um, someone else? Eric? Dan? Me? lol....

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, Califan007 said:

 

So, Jay and Kyle versus Doug and, um, someone else? Eric? Dan? Me? lol....

I wasn’t under the impression that Kyle’s board was a vote, but more a tool for Jay, Doug and Bruce.

 

That said, this cause for speculation is just more of why many of us do not expect this setup to ever breed consistently above average results.  

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I wasn’t under the impression that Kyle’s board was a vote, but more a tool for Jay, Doug and Bruce.

 

That said, this cause for speculation is just more of why many of us do not expect this setup to ever breed consistently above average results.  

 

I was assuming that more than just Jay and Doug had a vote before and during...I don't know why I thought that lol...I just did.

 

I just want Payne, Allen, Settle and Ioannidis to wreck **** up together for the next 10 years. I think Ioannidis is the oldest, which is wild to think about.

[Peregrine]

On 5/1/2018 at 3:14 AM, Wildbunny said:

No, you just can't discard NE because it doesn't fit your perception.

Question was about which teams doesn't have a GM, and NE fits in perfectly...

NE has a GM, Bellichick

 

Yes, you literally have to discard them.  You cannot just include NE because they fit your perception.  NE is as ANYONE will admit who has ever followed football, an enigma.  If you are trying to detect trends that you can repeat, you literally cannot use NE.  To do so would be to say the solution is to find Tom Brady again, which you wont.  You would have to be an absolute and utter fool to try and figure out a trend or pattern in NFL success by using NE and repeating it, where there isnt some other pattern in the NFL.  Are you trying to admit to something?

[Dissident2]

Another Sports Junkies segment this morning about Bruce, with Jerry Brewer. 

 

The same "junk" once again had some glowing comments about Bruce, especially when talk about how "integral" Bruce is to the stadium deal came from another host. 

 

"How integral could this guy be to anything? He's a certified moron." Brewer agreed that this line of argument as to why Bruce "can't be let go" is overblown. 

 

Other words tossed around that I recall:

Buffoon, fraud, joke, "one of those guys that as soon as you meet him, you know he's a slimeball." 

 

Fun times. 

 

 

[OVCChairman]

44 minutes ago, Dissident2 said:

Another Sports Junkies segment this morning about Bruce, with Jerry Brewer. 

 

The same "junk" once again had some glowing comments about Bruce, especially when talk about how "integral" Bruce is to the stadium deal came from another host. 

 

"How integral could this guy be to anything? He's a certified moron." Brewer agreed that this line of argument as to why Bruce "can't be let go" is overblown. 

 

Other words tossed around that I recall:

Buffoon, fraud, joke, "one of those guys that as soon as you meet him, you know he's a slimeball." 

 

Fun times. 

 

 

 

 

I also heard reference to the legislators that would broker the deal are must as much morons as Bruce is and that may be the appeal.  That sending in 'Wall Street Types' would be detrimental to the deal.  

[c slag]

Why keep Bruce around for a stadium? 

Couldn't they just tear down and build a new one on the existing site since they own that land ?

Maybe just go play at the soccer field for a season untill it's completed? 

 

[Warhead36]

2 hours ago, c slag said:

Why keep Bruce around for a stadium? 

Couldn't they just tear down and build a new one on the existing site since they own that land ?

Maybe just go play at the soccer field for a season untill it's completed? 

 

I think its because they think he has political ties with his brother being a former Governor. But I'm not sure how much power he actually still has and if he does, how much that would correlate to his brother.

[c slag]

59 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I think its because they think he has political ties with his brother being a former Governor. But I'm not sure how much power he actually still has and if he does, how much that would correlate to his brother.

I can see this especially if the new stadium is going to be in Virginia 

[OVCChairman]

On 5/6/2018 at 3:24 PM, c slag said:

Why keep Bruce around for a stadium? 

Couldn't they just tear down and build a new one on the existing site since they own that land ?

Maybe just go play at the soccer field for a season untill it's completed? 

 

 

 

They don't own the land, they are leasing it.   At this point in the juncture, I want to say there is still about 8 - 9 years left on the lease, and I believe the Redskins AND PG County have a mutual understanding that they do not want to renew the lease on the existing land.  The location is terrible, the area around it is not conducive to a positive stadium experience, and there is almost 0% chance a SuperBowl would ever be played at that location, regardless of what stadium was built there.  

 

The other thing is I think Snyder wants to be in Loudoun County closer to Redskins Park.  Some of the members that would be needed to approve a move into DC have already said they would vote against it unless we changed the name, so I'd imagine that option is out.  PG County, from what I understand, does not want to contribute to the funding of a new Stadium either, so to stay in that part of MD, Dan and co would basically be paying out of pocket. 

 

Va already has Redskins Park, and a couple years ago we added the wonderful training camp facility in Richmond... The major obstacle is going to be the politics of it, and Bruce Allen is nothing if he hasn't been described as a politician....  I don't know how 'integral' Allen is, but I'd imagine that Snyder wants any advantage he can get when he's staring down the road of a $1 billion investment. 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

On 5/6/2018 at 5:50 PM, Warhead36 said:

I think its because they think he has political ties with his brother being a former Governor. But I'm not sure how much power he actually still has and if he does, how much that would correlate to his brother.

 

Being in the business of politics including eons ago doing political work in Virginia.  I'd bet the house that Allen's brother is still insanely connected in that state.  The power brokers behind the scenes -- consultants-lobbyists-corporate donors-special interest groups rarely change and that same crowd are the ones that pull the strings of each new strand of elected officials.  And a governor is as good as it gets in terms of being high on the food chain as to connections -- even a retired one. 

 

To be able to massage something like this through the legislature is a bear.  So Bruce for his faults is probably is one of the most uniquely connected team officials ever as to having a shot to help pull off a stadium.  The thing is though its typically done via some sort of tax/bond which isn't per se popular. They can try to get corporate donors to foot most of the bill but that's not easy either.

 

I am not a fan of Bruce running personnel.  But as I've said many times, I'd have no issue with Bruce if he stayed in his lane.  This is an example of him staying in his lane and in theory at least I'd think he'd be good at playing this game.  And to his credit, if he's instrumental at getting the stadium -- that's a major accomplishment for him if he is truly the driving force. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I am not a fan of Bruce running personnel.  But as I've said many times, I'd have no issue with Bruce if he stayed in his lane.  This is an example of him staying in his lane and in theory at least I'd think he'd be good at playing this game.  And to his credit, if he's instrumental at getting the stadium -- that's a major accomplishment for him if he is truly the driving force. 

Well, currently, as team president, his lane is everything.  

 

And let's wait and see what the new stadium turns into before we say whether his efforts have been good or bad.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Well, currently, as team president, his lane is everything.  

 

And let's wait and see what the new stadium turns into before we say whether his efforts have been good or bad.

 

Sure and I get his lane is everything that's why I slammed him a zillion times on various threads especially this one.  As for whether his efforts are good or bad and lets not count the chickens yet -- yep that's why I used the word "if". 

[Tsailand]

On 5/8/2018 at 9:36 AM, OVCChairman said:

there is almost 0% chance a SuperBowl would ever be played at that location, regardless of what stadium was built there.  

 

Heh.

 

On 5/8/2018 at 9:36 AM, OVCChairman said:

Some of the members that would be needed to approve a move into DC have already said they would vote against it unless we changed the name, so I'd imagine that option is out. 

 

They don't actually mean that.  That is partly posturing for the media, partly staking out a position for us to buy them out from.  This is  DC we are talking about.  Everything is for sale, if you offer enough.

 

 

As a VA fan and taxpayer, I would like the team to move here, but I do not want the state to give the team one red cent.

[OVCChairman]

56 minutes ago, Tsailand said:

 

Heh.

 

 

They don't actually mean that.  That is partly posturing for the media, partly staking out a position for us to buy them out from.  This is  DC we are talking about.  Everything is for sale, if you offer enough.

 

 

As a VA fan and taxpayer, I would like the team to move here, but I do not want the state to give the team one red cent.

 

 

Whether they meant it or not, that turns me off to having the team there.. if for no other reason than it's clear they're focus is the politics of it.  Who's to say they get over it now and 3 years after the contract is signed, they decide they want to be persuaded again. 

[Thinking Skins]

So I'm listening to Al Galdi this morning and I'm forced to wonder, is our front office still a laughing stock? I posted about two weeks ago about how lazy mock draft sites were because they would say that we were bound to make dumb picks because of ol unlce Bruce running things, ignoring the fact that we have scouts and have had good drafts recently. Now we're talking about having 2 respected guys around the league who may be potential GM hires. So are they going to admit they were wrong, or are we still going to be the butt of their jokes?

[OVCChairman]

27 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

So I'm listening to Al Galdi this morning and I'm forced to wonder, is our front office still a laughing stock? I posted about two weeks ago about how lazy mock draft sites were because they would say that we were bound to make dumb picks because of ol unlce Bruce running things, ignoring the fact that we have scouts and have had good drafts recently. Now we're talking about having 2 respected guys around the league who may be potential GM hires. So are they going to admit they were wrong, or are we still going to be the butt of their jokes?

 

 

I found myself feeling the say way... Smith and Schaeffer are viewed as 2 young up and comers with Smith pegged as a lock at future GM.  I wonder if Snyder is smart enough to see this coming this time and the Campbell move was opening a clear path to GM here once Smith, or Schaeffer, and the FO think one of them is ready.  

[Skinsinparadise]

The thing is its like saying a President (I mean any President not picking on a specific one) might be shaky but his staff rocks, the Secretary of Staff rocks or name that staffer.  So why aren't you embracing the administration?   Well, that's easy.  You are still judging an administration based on the President -- he's the spokesman.  He's the front man.  His actions publicly mean more than anyone else.    

 

Grant Paulsen was talking about this the other day.  He talked to some people in the front office and they suggested look you might not respect Bruce but forget him look at all the stuff we are doing.  His response was I don't doubt it but I can't overlook the guy who calls the shots.  That's the most important guy.  

 

I feel the same way.  Bruce IMO doesn't present the Redskins as a competent and or classy organization so the lack of respect from the national media in particular is well deserved and apt.    Yeah it gets into hyperbole and is over the top -- but Bruce has earned that.  If people don't like you they are going to find reasons to fault things about you.  That's human nature.  And Bruce has IMO earned the label of being unlikable.   And as for incompetence, he doesn't help himself with his public speaking gaffes.

 

That's why I keep harping on the idea of reassign Bruce. Stick him into his lane.  He strikes me as an odd fit as the guy in charge both as to his background/reputation and as to how he presents the team publicly.    You change that dynamic.  You change the perception of the team.

 

I really doubt you are going to have petitions going about remove Kyle Smith and or Schaffer from the GM role like you got for Bruce. Bruce is a polarizing figure who isn't popular with the majority of fans and media -- and that has hurt the public perception IMO of the team.  You remove him and replace with a competent/bigger rep person (even if in house) who can talk on his feet and is likable.  I think the perception of this team changes in a night and day fashion.

 

I know just some shrug Bruce off, even if they don't love him, and just say ignore him and focus on what you like.  That's Craig Hoffman's take.  The thing is its not hard to tell that judging by polls, petitions, radio talk shows, twitter -- that Bruce isn't liked by the majority of people who follow the team.  He's earned that IMO.  He started off as being a guy who was liked.  But now it is what it is.  I don't think most fans are going to fully warm up to this front office until he's out of personnel. 

 

[OVCChairman]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

That's why I keep harping on the idea of reassign Bruce. Stick him into his lane. 

 

 

 

Absolutely.  NFL teams are as much a business as they are entertainment, and it would appear that Allen understands business.  He understands the politics it takes to run a billion dollar business.  What he doesn't succeed at is people.  He's fine walking through the line on Arena Dr before the gates open at Fedex on gameday shaking hands and taking pictures  (something i've witnessed personally).  He's fine at being a business buffer between the numbers guys and Snyder.  He would appear to be good at brokering long term deals, locking up investors, and apparently working on a stadium deal.  None of that stuff makes him a good at evaluating football talent.  None of that makes him a good public speaker, and none of that makes him endearing to the fans or media.  I still would be ok if he decided he wanted to go to Oakland, as I don't see him being some sort of integral piece of the organization, but if he is going to remain, I think he can be effective at certain things.  Like you said, stick him in his lane.  Get him out of football ops and plant his butt in business ops.  

[goskins10]

32 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

The thing is its like saying a President (I mean any President not picking on a specific one) might be shaky but his staff rocks, the Secretary of Staff rocks or name that staffer.  So why aren't you embracing the administration?   Well, that's easy.  You are still judging an administration based on the President -- he's the spokesman.  He's the front man.  His actions publicly mean more than anyone else.    

 

Edit

 

I know just some shrug Bruce off, even if they don't love him, and just say ignore him and focus on what you like.  That's Craig Hoffman's take.  The thing is its not hard to tell that judging by polls, petitions, radio talk shows, twitter -- that Bruce isn't liked by the majority of people who follow the team.  He's earned that IMO.  He started off as being a guy who was liked.  But now it is what it is.  I don't think most fans are going to fully warm up to this front office until he's out of personnel. 

 

 

This is where it is for me 100%. I started out liking Bruce. I even have defended him from time to time - still do if it's warranted as not everything he does is garbage. However, he represents the organization poorly. He comes off as a snake oil salesman. And that has been earned. Again, I did not start there. He earned that reputation with me based on his actions. 

 

I will say that public perception and internal perception seems to be a bit different. Many players seem to like him. But I wonder how many more public missteps Dan is going to let Bruce get away with before he has had enough. Like you, I do not need to see him leave the organization - just get out of the football personal part of it. 

 

I know this thread is mostly about Bruce - but I have been thinking about Doug more and more. I think many, including myself may have short changed Doug's abilities and his potential impact on the team and FO specifically. He is clearly getting more and more leeway both in terms of speaking for the team and controlling operations behind the scenes. And at least the short term results appear to be pretty positive. The types of players they are bringing in are really coming together as a group. And he seems to be a sort of glue for the players. 

 

I have toyed with starting a Doug Williams thread but for now thought I would just add it here.  

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

Now we're talking about having 2 respected guys around the league who may be potential GM hires. So are they going to admit they were wrong, or are we still going to be the butt of their jokes?

Wrong about what?  I don't see anyone hating on Schaffer or Smith.  I'd imagine the same guys pointing fingers, would applaud a move that either exiles Bruce out of Ashburn or reassigns him to his strength, while elevating both Smith and Schaffer when it comes to football operations. 

11 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

I know this thread is mostly about Bruce - but I have been thinking about Doug more and more. I think many, including myself may have short changed Doug's abilities and his potential impact on the team and FO specifically. He is clearly getting more and more leeway both in terms of speaking for the team and controlling operations behind the scenes. And at least the short term results appear to be pretty positive. The types of players they are bringing in are really coming together as a group. And he seems to be a sort of glue for the players. 

 

I have toyed with starting a Doug Williams thread but for now thought I would just add it here.  

I'm still very skeptical on this front as to what he actually does and how good he is at assessing talent.  I will say though that he's pretty good at what many of us expected his primary role to be - the face/voice of the franchise.  Elevating him and making him the mouthpiece was a smart move, because nobody wants to hate on Doug Williams.  He and Bruce could say the exact same thing and evoke a much different response from the fan base.  One guy is a Super Bowl winning good guy, the other is seen as slimy scumbag politician. 

[Thinking Skins]

1 hour ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

I found myself feeling the say way... Smith and Schaeffer are viewed as 2 young up and comers with Smith pegged as a lock at future GM.  I wonder if Snyder is smart enough to see this coming this time and the Campbell move was opening a clear path to GM here once Smith, or Schaeffer, and the FO think one of them is ready.  

 

Yeah I had a second part of that message I was going to write that basically asked a question of what I preferred more

 - a Bruce led team

 - a DW led team

 - a Kyle Smith led team

 - a Schaeffer led team

 

and with those 4 options I'd go with the third. But the 4 are not mutually exclusive. In fact Kyle Smith being the son of Bruce's best friend is probably not a coincidence and I wonder how much it played into the whole Scot situation. I know the narrative is Mike Lombardi calling Bruce the Prince of Darkness and the agents not trusting Bruce, but I'm looking at these last 4 years (since 2014) and seeing the results of a plan.

 

Smith's been here since 2011. That's enough time to notice that he's a shining star and that the things that his father (who didn't accept / wasn't offered our GM role, partially because of his opinion of RG3) said were not just parental pride but actually based on fact. So maybe these moves have been in preparation for moving Smith into a GM role here, and DW taking the role he has is a buffer (as many hypothesized) but not for Bruce but more for Smith. So Smith can focus on doing what he does well and establishing a name for himself.

 

I think its really telling that Scott Campbell didn't run this year's draft and even last year after the reorg it was Smith who had the promotion and Scott Campbell who we were asking "what does he do". And with the success of Smith and the name recognition that he has, I would be surprised if he is not being groomed to take over the GM role soon. We could actually have a system like the Ravens where we have Smith and Doug as a 1-2 punch and saying that Smith takes over when Doug retires.

 

I'm hypothesizing right now so this could be way off base, but I like the fact that Smith's star is shining (as a result of his good work) and the fact that we seemed to recognize that potential and promoted him to put him into a position to shine.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, goskins10 said:

but I have been thinking about Doug more and more. I think many, including myself may have short changed Doug's abilities and his potential impact on the team and FO specifically. He is clearly getting more and more leeway both in terms of speaking for the team and controlling operations behind the scenes. And at least the short term results appear to be pretty positive. The types of players they are bringing in are really coming together as a group. And he seems to be a sort of glue for the players. 

 

I have toyed with starting a Doug Williams thread but for now thought I would just add it here.  

 

 

 

I have warmed up about Doug but for almost the opposite reason you speak of.  That is, I don't think he's controlling squat.  He seems more like a cheerleader and facilitator and to me that's a good example of someone staying in his lane.  He's a classy dude, honest and a nice guy.   I've heard enough accounts of what Doug does by enough guys including listening to Doug's own descriptions that the picture painted to me is this:

 

He's doing very little player evaluation at least almost nothing where he's the lead.  He will go to some college games and pro days, etc but he's typically part of an entourage.  His version of it is to put another eyes to the evaluation that already is going.  An area scout says hey I love this guy, Kyle says hey I love this guy.  So Doug goes and looks at him too and chimes in.  But he's not a key voice in the evaluation but a vote/opinion when people are going back and forth.   

 

For example in all my listening and reading about the Kirk stuff -- its not hard for me to deduce that Doug had Bruce's back on the lets not give the agent what they want on the contract.   So there was likely a debate on the subject and Doug helped Bruce get a consensus on it.  And listening to Doug's own description of the Payne pick, there was clearly division in the room and he gave the impression at least that he was one of the Payne votes (though he didn't outright say it) so they'd make the pick and move on.

 

I always think you can tell a lot about stories that people reveal because it sets a narrative that naturally would likely be in play on other stuff.  Doug seemed to like telling the tale of Jay storming off when they didn't take Trey Quinn at one of their picks.  I presume he felt comfortable telling that story because they ended up with Quinn in the end.  But its hard for me to believe that other things like that don't happen without the happy ending.   And if Jay is storming off because of not taking Trey at a pick -- doesn't that paint a picture that he might not have been in love with the player they took at that pick -- otherwise why storm off?

 

Russell said recently that Bruce-Jay have had more tension this offseason than typically and he seemed to allude that it was about FA.  Jay himself in his jocular ease the tension style said yeah there were guys he wanted that he didn't get but that's life in the NFL.

 

That's my long winded way of saying I get what people say about Doug's main role is to be a facilitator to make sure all get along.  I know last year he got credit for keeping morale up in that building.  I gather Redskins Park isn't always a happy go lucky environment.  And if Doug helps make it so -- there is value to it.

 

What I like about him is his honesty in his public appearances.   And if he helped Kyle Smith get the promotion then that was clearly a good move. 

 

[Thinking Skins]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

The thing is its like saying a President (I mean any President not picking on a specific one) might be shaky but his staff rocks, the Secretary of Staff rocks or name that staffer.  So why aren't you embracing the administration?   Well, that's easy.  You are still judging an administration based on the President -- he's the spokesman.  He's the front man.  His actions publicly mean more than anyone else.    

 

Grant Paulsen was talking about this the other day.  He talked to some people in the front office and they suggested look you might not respect Bruce but forget him look at all the stuff we are doing.  His response was I don't doubt it but I can't overlook the guy who calls the shots.  That's the most important guy. 

I don't really disagree with this and that could be a reason why we're seeing more of Doug doing the press conferences instead of Bruce. But at the same time, we have to acknowledge that a leader who lets the people below him (or her) do their jobs generally is able to earn their respect. And Bruce is not universally hated, Bill Polian and AJ Smith are some respected GMs who have spoken positively about Bruce recently.

 

The question I have is similar to one with someone like McVay. Supposedly they knew that McVay was a talent years ago (under Shanny's staff) but didn't think he was ready for a head coaching job. So they hired a coach who could/would work with McVay and allow him to shine. This coach was laughed at and mocked for being the wrong Gruden, a hire in name only, another Zorn, somebody with name only, etc. But he gave McVay a higher title and McVay shined and as a result our team shined. 

 

I mean, just remove Bruce from the equation. People were saying the same things about Doug just last year. Now we've got walterfootball calling Doug the best newcomer to the draft. Its not much in the grand scheme of things, but its more than calling him the laughing stock he was last year.

59 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Wrong about what?  I don't see anyone hating on Schaffer or Smith.  I'd imagine the same guys pointing fingers, would applaud a move that either exiles Bruce out of Ashburn or reassigns him to his strength, while elevating both Smith and Schaffer when it comes to football operations. 

 

What's wrong is that this is still a FO put together by Bruce Allen. Love the guy or hate the guy they still work for Bruce. The same way they work for Dan. Some (like myself) have said that this team will never win under Dan. That was when he was into the philosophy of paying top dollar for too old free agents. Now that philosophy has changed and so has my opinion of winning under Dan. Bruce is mainly the reason for that philosophy change and Smith and Schaffer are the vessels through which he was able to execute that philosophy change into a .500 team.