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Presidential Election :11/3/2020- Fireside Chatter DJT vs Superplanner Lizzie & some other Dems

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1 hour ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

Not even remotely wrong. You could have helped prevent Trump, you stood by and let it happen.

 

I think there is enough blame to be heaped upon the people who voted for and continue to support trump that we don't need to be picking fights with the people who didn't vote for him and don't support him.

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I think there is enough blame to be heaped upon the people who voted for and continue to support trump that we don't need to be picking fights with the people who didn't vote for him and don't support him.

I agree and disagree. There were a couple of states where the difference was so thin (like Florida) that a few votes might have tipped the map. Everyone needs to be conscious of their decision and its effect. I do agree people should vote their conscience, but they should also be aware of the big picture.

Edited by Burgold
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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I think there is enough blame to be heaped upon the people who voted for and continue to support trump that we don't need to be picking fights with the people who didn't vote for him and don't support him.

 

I agree, although there is something to be said to a small but pivotal voting bloc that has decided to equate racism and outright social decay to policy ideas on healthcare and education. 

 

Right or wrong, it’s fair to question their priorities if they are indirectly enabling the status quo even if it comes stapled with the policies of David Duke.

 

It really isn’t a new phenomena either. MLK’s criticism of the white moderate is as relevant today: 

 

Quote

Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will.

 

And quite honestly, Trump doesn’t happen if white moderates took the issue of racism seriously enough. The anti-Trump ex GOP voter was perfectly fine when the dog whistle was used instead of the megaphone. 

Edited by No Excuses

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1 hour ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

 

Agree to disagree. 

 

sounds like more indoct, er counseling is needed citizen. 

 

:ols:

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3 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

He is deeply in denial about what the GoP is, what they represent, and what they are doing.

He isn’t in denial

 

He loves this even tho that party doesn’t give a damn about him. 

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On 7/19/2019 at 11:09 AM, PeterMP said:

 

I voted for Hillary and will absolutely vote for an Democrat in 2020.  But...

 

At some level, Trump's actual policies (ignore his language and tweets) are less of a change from the status quo (even globally) than what at least the far left wing of the Democratic party wants to enact.

So if the D's nominate either, say, Harris, Warren, or Sanders, you would still vote for any of them over, say, a 3rd party candidate with more moderate views?

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On 7/19/2019 at 2:14 PM, Jumbo said:

i'm looking for abuse and buzz is tough and well-tempered

 

Does this mean I've earned a custom title under my screen name yet?

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2 hours ago, No Excuses said:

 

I agree, although there is something to be said to a small but pivotal voting bloc that has decided to equate racism and outright social decay to policy ideas on healthcare and education. 

Just to be clear I don’t equate the two. At all. 

 

I just dont want either. 

 

When you dont want some or a lot of the major policy ideas of the left (and most of them, if implemented, are irreversible) and you hate what the gop is, it creates a difficult situation. I realize why people who want those policies (or at a minimum don’t think they’re that bad) don’t understand or can’t relate to the problem. 

 

Im 60% of the way there with the liberals. I recognize the problems you draw attention to; I understand their importance; I agree they need to be addressed. Im concerned the other 40% isn’t a good idea and that for the most part those solutions are irreversible once implemented.  

 

Its incredibly hard hard to read Fresh’s posts and square that with where I sit currently in politics. Incredibly hard. 

 

His situation is extreme but it’s not hard to imagine millions of people being closer to where he is with things than where I am (in terms of impact that trump and the gop has on our lives)

 

It ****ing sucks and I feel like a dick arguing the points I argue in a thread where we have a member posting what fresh posts (and we have other examples just using his because it’s extreme and incredible in many ways)

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1 hour ago, hail2skins said:

So if the D's nominate either, say, Harris, Warren, or Sanders, you would still vote for any of them over, say, a 3rd party candidate with more moderate views?

 

Youre not going to get anywhere with that. 

 

Those of us who decided we could only vote 3rd party have been lambasted for 2 1/2 years over it. This isn’t the crowd for that (not intended as an insult it’s just the truth of the dynamic here at the moment)

 

mostly people here view the third party vote as throwing away your vote and in the context of the options, they consider it supporting trump. 

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39 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

mostly people here view the third party vote as throwing away your vote and in the context of the options, they consider it supporting trump. 

No T, I get it.  I was just curious about Peter specifically, as he (like you in your above post) expressed dismay with prominent positions of some of the high-profile candidates running on the D side, but indicated he was definitely going to vote D anyway. 

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Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, tshile said:

When you dont want some or a lot of the major policy ideas of the left (and most of them, if implemented, are irreversible) and you hate what the gop is, it creates a difficult situation. I realize why people who want those policies (or at a minimum don’t think they’re that bad) don’t understand or can’t relate to the problem. 

 

I understand what you are saying.

 

But there is a binary choice for 2020. The binary choice for 2020 is shifting the political debate to healthcare, education and infrastructure (other sensible issues) or continuing on our current track of culture war nonsense, straight from the playbook of rabid, extreme right white nationalists. 

 

The only people actually having a debate on non-culture war issues right now at the national stage are liberals (neolibs as our resident lefties pejoratively call them) and progressives. Ideally the GOP would present alternative visions on some these issues. I mean they’ve had 10 years to propose an alternative to the ACA and didn’t. And they won’t because they have no reason to engage in meaningful discourse until Trumpism is a giant loser at the polls. 

 

Edited by No Excuses
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3 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

The only people actually having a debate on non-culture war issues right now at the national stage are liberals 

Which is why I find myself inching closer all the time. 

 

My current one sentence view of things: I don’t like the liberals solutions but I like that they at least recognize issues, whereas the gop just acts like the issues don’t exist (by saying that or just refusing to discuss it and focus on culture war bull****)

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, hail2skins said:

So if the D's nominate either, say, Harris, Warren, or Sanders, you would still vote for any of them over, say, a 3rd party candidate with more moderate views?

That's what I said.

 

Yes.  I will vote for whoever the Democrats nominate.

Edited by PeterMP

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Posted (edited)

Also I could normally vote for someone like warren (with some policies I’m very against) and then vote for gop senate and house 

 

and at least walk away saying I did the right thing by voting against trump but hedged by not giving Warren support to push policies I’m against. 

 

But im having a hard time separating gop candidates across the board from trump right now. I actually consider many of them worse because they’re smart enough to actually implement some of these bad ideas without waving the racist flag in everyone’s face. They always leave enough for somewhat plausible deniability where as trump leaves no question what’s going on

 

also in this climate I have no reason to believe the gop would win in my districts or state. So it’s be a hedge that requires being very naive to think would work. 

Edited by tshile

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5 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I think there is enough blame to be heaped upon the people who voted for and continue to support trump that we don't need to be picking fights with the people who didn't vote for him and don't support him.

When they are openly discussing repeating their passivity then yeah it's an issue.

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2 hours ago, tshile said:

Which is why I find myself inching closer all the time. 

 

so-youre-telling-me-theres-a-chance-3448

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The volume isn’t up so I’ve just got what’s on the screen.  Just posting as FYI about our favorite propaganda network. 

 

Fox News this morning running with two stories on repeat (and the repeat time is about, I’d say, 5 minutes)

 

1 - antifa members assaulting a conservative reporter (and the video is bad, real bad)

 

2 - marine on motorcycle killed by immigrant (white immigrant from Eastern Europe judging by the name on the mug shot they’re showing)

 

 

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18 hours ago, hail2skins said:

So if the D's nominate either, say, Harris, Warren, or Sanders, you would still vote for any of them over, say, a 3rd party candidate with more moderate views?

That is my nightmare scenario, although I could vote for Harris. No way could I vote for Bernie.

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19 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I think there is enough blame to be heaped upon the people who voted for and continue to support trump that we don't need to be picking fights with the people who didn't vote for him and don't support him.

Trump wants us fighting with each other so we cant fight him, we shouldnt forget that.

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1 hour ago, tshile said:

The volume isn’t up so I’ve just got what’s on the screen.  Just posting as FYI about our favorite propaganda network. 

 

Fox News this morning running with two stories on repeat (and the repeat time is about, I’d say, 5 minutes)

 

1 - antifa members assaulting a conservative reporter (and the video is bad, real bad)

 

2 - marine on motorcycle killed by immigrant (white immigrant from Eastern Europe judging by the name on the mug shot they’re showing)

 

 

Andy Ngo is a right-wing troll media personality – he isn’t a journalist – who cavorts with Nazis and antagonizes left groups. Eff that guy.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Andy Ngo is a right-wing troll media personality – he isn’t a journalist – who cavorts with Nazis and antagonizes left groups. Eff that guy.

I figured. 

 

But that’s not how it’s presented and the video is bad as it fits the propaganda 

Edited by tshile

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1 hour ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Andy Ngo is a right-wing troll media personality – he isn’t a journalist – who cavorts with Nazis and antagonizes left groups. Eff that guy.

 

Shame on you for that dirty smear. Ngo has constributed to the Wall Street Journal, the National Review, New York Post and is an editor at Quillette. These are more conservative news outlets, but still credible news organizations. He is also the gay son of Vietnamese immigrants. irrelevant unliess you care about an individual's place in the intersectional stack, and he is near the top.

 

The political violence he suffered is bad no matter its orientation. And your smear to try and minimize that violence is harmful.

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Posted (edited)

Andy Ngo’s story isn’t as simple as right wing guy who hangs out with Nazis. His ideological views are more in line with someone like Richard Dawkins rather than Richard Spencer. No one would call Dawkins, whose spent his career dunking on Christians and Muslims, a right winger. 

 

What Ngo has found, Iike many else, is that the culture war is highly profitable and a good way to make your name. He’s basically a disingenuous hack, riding the gravy train that is constant cultural outrage:

 

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/josephbernstein/andy-ngo-portland-antifa

 

Antifa, Patriot Prayer, Proud Boys, all of these groups don’t even make up .000001% of the public, yet their antics in Portland and other places drive social media attention and media coverage way beyond their scope and relevance. And if you constantly find yourself in the presence of goons, and make it a point to cover them in a biased, antagonizing way, don’t be surprised if they punch back. 

 

Edited by No Excuses
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2 hours ago, Riggo-toni said:

That is my nightmare scenario, although I could vote for Harris. No way could I vote for Bernie.

 

I'm not sure how Bernie is a "nightmare scenario", especially when compared to Trump. I'm what I suppose you'd call a "moderate liberal", so I don't agree with all of Bernie's policy positions, but there's zero chance I'd vote third party if there's the potential for it helping Trump back into office. Besides, there's probably about a .001% chance that Bernie would actually get any of his more radical agenda through Congress. Even if he somehow had a Dem House and Senate by the time anything got back to his desk it would be much less radical than what he wanted. So he'd probably end up governing more as a more mainstream liberal. 

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