Bill Callahan and the Offensive Line

[goskins10]

14 minutes ago, skinzplay said:

Nothing to add here, I'll move on. You can hang on to it if you'd like (apparently that's the preference). I've called the man a premier LT, said how much I want him on the team....don't know how much more you want. We don't have enough food in our fridge to feed an NFL offensive linemen for Thanksgiving, so as much as I would like to extend an invitation, I don't think that's gonna happen.......wife would kill me. But if you don't think he gets beat, fine. We'll agree that he's an elite LT -- I've already said that. Done with this exchange.

 

LOL - When this happens enough times, sorry I get tired of it and stop ignoring it, youj are just the one that pushed it over the edge - You made a claim that he gets "beat more than we care to admit" clearly indicating he is not as good as advertised. You also state that his stronger position is RT, implying his is being played out of position, again suggesting he is not that good. Neither of those implications have anything to back them up.

 

You get called on it, then come out with the Earnest t Bass stuff, whatever that is supposed to mean. Then you say he is an elite LT and that just clears the other stuff? Also, where did I say he never gets beat? I said he is arguably one of the best LTs in football. All players get beat - which is fairness you also said. But again, you kept implying the move was more because he was not as good, even if you came behind and said - oh I meant he is elite I just want to extend his career. I am going to assume positive intent and leave the whole Thanksgiving thing alone.

 

One good thing out of this I think I will change my picture to Earnest T Bass. So thanks for idea.

[MassSkinsFan]

20 hours ago, skinzplay said:

Funny how people go all Ernest T. Bass on you when you share a simple opinion on here. Guys, I never said Trent was old, washed up, a "has been", should be cut, should be traded, is a bum, etc. Jesus Christ, people. I want the guy to be with the Skins and on that field til he retires. Hence the underlying message I was hoping to convey about moving him to RT so he can play longer, and selecting a younger LT so we can shore up the line. I'm not at all sold on Moses. It's simply a theory, which is why I also didn't identity a LT to draft. If that becomes possible, then sure, let's draft one. Had Jammal Brown not suffered repeated injury, he would have been our LT and Trent would've been placed at RT; that's what Shanahan was going to do (whether right away or not, I don't know). Injury got in the way of that.

 

Relax people, for goodness sake. We're here to celebrate the Skins, not jump down somebody's throat whenever they say something that you can't verify through a google search.

 

I was the original response. I'm not attacking you or your point of view. It's just a challenge for you to back up a few things - first, that TW is not a dominant LT in the NFL, second, that RT is his preferred position, and third that he is a problem on the OL that ought to be addressed, even though we have a LG/C combination that seems to be the OL weak link.

 

All of us who make claims in the Stadium get challenged. It's good. That way we keep the discussion fact-based. 

 

Who would you prefer at C - Long or Roullier? I'm a Roullier guy. I think we might have a slight drop-off in pass pro but a fairly good gain in run blocking. It's still early days. Roullier could have been playing way over his head on Sunday. I hope we get to see him in a few more games so we can figure this out. My opinion is based on scouting reads where people say things like "Roullier has the ability to steer defensive linemen in a way rarely seen," "he controls opponents once engaged" and "he finds ways to stay on top of his blocks." Remember that OL, especially C, is not only about size and speed. It's also about how you block your guy once you're on him. On Sunday Roullier showed a great understanding of certain things, like how long to stay on the first level before releasing to block a guy on the second level, and how to use a defender's momentum and natural reflex to push back against force to ride a guy past the play. These are things that are taught, but he seems to understand them on a fundamental level without any need to think about them. That's pretty valuable in the run game.

 

Like you, I'm here to enjoy being a Skins fan (tough as that can be at times). Hail.

[I Love The Skins]

8 minutes ago, MassSkinsFan said:

 

I was the original response. I'm not attacking you or your point of view. It's just a challenge to back up a few things - first, that TW is not a dominant LT in the NFL, second, that RT is his preferred position, and third that he is a problem on the OL that ought to be addressed, even though we have a LG/C combination that seems to be the OL weak link.

 

.

May I ask why you don't think TW is a dominant LT? Most fans and  NFL experts say he is either the best LT or 2nd best.

This is how I rank the top 3

 

1.Trent Williams

2. Joe Thomas

3 Tyron Smith

[MassSkinsFan]

8 minutes ago, I Love The Skins said:

May I ask why you don't think TW is a dominant LT? Most fans and  NFL experts say he is either the best LT or 2nd best.

This is how I rank the top 3

 

1.Trent Williams

2. Joe Thomas

3 Tyron Smith

 

I DO think he's dominant. In fact, I agree with your assessment. Read the exchange again. 

[skinzplay]

18 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

LOL - When this happens enough times, sorry I get tired of it and stop ignoring it, youj are just the one that pushed it over the edge - You made a claim that he gets "beat more than we care to admit" clearly indicating he is not as good as advertised. You also state that his stronger position is RT, implying his is being played out of position, again suggesting he is not that good. Neither of those implications have anything to back them up.

 

You get called on it, then come out with the Earnest t Bass stuff, whatever that is supposed to mean. Then you say he is an elite LT and that just clears the other stuff? Also, where did I say he never gets beat? I said he is arguably one of the best LTs in football. All players get beat - which is fairness you also said. But again, you kept implying the move was more because he was not as good, even if you came behind and said - oh I meant he is elite I just want to extend his career. I am going to assume positive intent and leave the whole Thanksgiving thing alone.

 

One good thing out of this I think I will change my picture to Earnest T Bass. So thanks for idea.

 

Dude, I grew up watching that show -- it's one of my all-time favorites, and Ernest T. Bass is one of my favorite TV characters. By making that reference, I simply meant going bonkers over what I intended to be a simple statement of opinion. Glad you changed your profile pic to ol' Ernest T. That'll give me a good chuckle and some thoughts back to a better era of television.

 

Saying 'elite LT' wasn't  meant to clear everything else. It's what I believe. And when I said that he gets beat more than most care to acknowledge, I think I also said that such is true of all players of his caliber. Jordan got beat, Bird got beat, Lachey got beat, Jacoby got beat. I also didn't say that he's out of position, but that coaches wanted to move him because they viewed it as being better for the line with Brown at LT and Trent on the right side. One of these days, I'll try to arrange a Q&A on this site with the guy Shanahan intended to hire as his OL coach (he got stuck with Foerster, just like he ended up having to settle for Haslett after the preferred hires were either unavailable or advised by their agents and others not to go to Ashburn). I talked to him about this exact topic not even 2 months ago.

 

Anyway, like I said......let's not argue. Never in a million years have I ever said that Trent is not good.

 

 

[skinzplay]

48 minutes ago, MassSkinsFan said:

 

I was the original response. I'm not attacking you or your point of view. It's just a challenge for you to back up a few things - first, that TW is not a dominant LT in the NFL, second, that RT is his preferred position, and third that he is a problem on the OL that ought to be addressed, even though we have a LG/C combination that seems to be the OL weak link.

 

All of us who make claims in the Stadium get challenged. It's good. That way we keep the discussion fact-based. 

 

Who would you prefer at C - Long or Roullier? I'm a Roullier guy. I think we might have a slight drop-off in pass pro but a fairly good gain in run blocking. It's still early days. Roullier could have been playing way over his head on Sunday. I hope we get to see him in a few more games so we can figure this out. My opinion is based on scouting reads where people say things like "Roullier has the ability to steer defensive linemen in a way rarely seen," "he controls opponents once engaged" and "he finds ways to stay on top of his blocks." Remember that OL, especially C, is not only about size and speed. It's also about how you block your guy once you're on him. On Sunday Roullier showed a great understanding of certain things, like how long to stay on the first level before releasing to block a guy on the second level, and how to use a defender's momentum and natural reflex to push back against force to ride a guy past the play. These are things that are taught, but he seems to understand them on a fundamental level without any need to think about them. That's pretty valuable in the run game.

 

Like you, I'm here to enjoy being a Skins fan (tough as that can be at times). Hail.

 

Wholeheartedly agree, Mass, that the interior of our line is a serious concern. Right now, I think I'd roll with Roullier at C and find someway, somehow to get Lauvao out of the starting lineup. Maybe move Long to LG?

 

I don't mind being challenged.......and probably could have worded my original contribution a bit better. But I think pointing cyber pistols at contrary opinions is just silly. Disagree, use an emoticon to laugh at/off the post, but no need to rake someone over the coals unless they come on here to tell us something stupid like the Cowboys are for real.

 

We're still light-years better than the seemingly full-time contributors in the comments sections of those news sites. Now THAT's some scary stuff. Hail!

[Voice_of_Reason]

If they don't run the ball better this year, I think they need to move on from Callahan.  I know he's a Gruden guy (coached with Jon in Oakland), and I think he's a good coach, but the blocking has been poop. And at some point, you've got to try something else.

 

I'm hoping it improves dramatically in week 1.  

[JaxJoe]

On 8/30/2017 at 4:02 PM, Voice_of_Reason said:

If they don't run the ball better this year, I think they need to move on from Callahan.  I know he's a Gruden guy (coached with Jon in Oakland), and I think he's a good coach, but the blocking has been poop. And at some point, you've got to try something else.

 

I'm hoping it improves dramatically in week 1.  

The line certainly played better against Cincy but is still subpar IMO.  I have a suspicion that the coaches tell starters to 'play but try not to get injured' during pre-season games but the 3rd game is the 'dress rehearsal' and players will perform better.  I'm probably wrong, though.

 

 

[OVCChairman]

LOL, 'welcome to the NFL Rook... here's a D-lineman for you'

 

[skinny21]

That's an awesome block by Scherff.  Loved how he uses his left to pull his guy's shoulder to him so that his right hand shove throws off the dude's balance.  Great hand work/placement.  Almost wish he had looked for another guy to block when his man went down, but... as an olineman, I bet you take any opportunity you can to punish a defender.  

[Jacoby66forHOF]

23 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

If they don't run the ball better this year, I think they need to move on from Callahan.  I know he's a Gruden guy (coached with Jon in Oakland), and I think he's a good coach, but the blocking has been poop. And at some point, you've got to try something else.

 

I'm hoping it improves dramatically in week 1.  

 

Dropping Callahan would be a mistake.  His work making Moses the RT he is today is proof the guy knows how to coach the O-line.

 

The issue with the O-line is the Lavaman at LG.  He is the weak link and the key to the Skins current rushing woes.  The right side of the O-line was the best side last year, both in pass blocking and run blocking.  Any issue with the O-line last year started with #77.  You could make a drinking game out of how often Lavaman gets blown up in pass protection.  But there is no one to replace him.  Kouandjio looked to be ready to take Lavaman's spot, but now he is fighting for his 2nd string spot with UDFA's.  Before Kouandjio, Long was destined to be the starting LG, but he has been sidetracked at center.  Best case scenario is for Roullier to show he can be an NFL center, he showed potential last week, and move Long to LG this year to see if he is the long term answer before he leaves as a UFA after this year.  

[OVCChairman]

I agree about Lavaman but for some reason Gruden and co. loves the guy... what am I (are we) missing? 

[Wildbunny]

13 hours ago, OVCChairman said:

I agree about Lavaman but for some reason Gruden and co. loves the guy... what am I (are we) missing? 

Humm guessing here...

 

Coaching degree maybe? 

[TheShredder]

TW is the BOSS on the OL.  He's going to have his weekly OL dinner and get them motivated.  They'll drink some beers and talk some trash. Probably call some people out and admit some deficiencies to each-other.  The outcome will be the Week 1 difference from the pre-season performances. They'll be better.  I'm not convinced it's good enough to get motivated this late. 

[carex]

so, does Rollier being held out last night mean the Skins could be starting him week one?

[OVCChairman]

3 minutes ago, carex said:

so, does Rollier being held out last night mean the Skins could be starting him week one?

we can hope... It might just be precaution because they dont know how long the recovery will be to Long, and doing want to risk a rookie who's been in camp for 2 weeks to be our starter against Philly. 

[CrypticVillain]

I know I'm probably late to the party on this, but what's the problem with replacing "Lavaman" with Long at guard and starting Roullier at center?

 

Doc Walker can be a bit overboard at times, but one thing I never disagreed on him with was the fact that you have to get your best five offensive linemen on the field. Lavaou isn't a part of that group anymore.

[OVCChairman]

31 minutes ago, CrypticVillain said:

I know I'm probably late to the party on this, but what's the problem with replacing "Lavaman" with Long at guard and starting Roullier at center?

 

Doc Walker can be a bit overboard at times, but one thing I never disagreed on him with was the fact that you have to get your best five offensive linemen on the field. Lavaou isn't a part of that group anymore.

thats the question we're askin... if Chase can keep developing, and Long can stop thinking about anything other than the guy in front of him... it could be an immediate upgrade, possible marginal for now, but an upgrade no doubt.  

[RandyHolt]

I think its become clear that coaches put a premium on a guy that knows his responsibility on every play.  Call it... smart, and proven.  Less important, until someone better comes along, is ability.  Jay doesn't give a rats ass if Lava ends up doing snow angels on every play, as long as he got his body where it needed to be, and on time.

 

Kirk recently handed the keys to the offense, was overheard when his bluetooth headset was hacked because they never changed the password from 0000...

 

Ok, everyone get in their way, Pryor run the slant, eyes on the ball, Reed don't hold, 2 on yellow 30, break!

[Conn]

Denver traded OT Ty Sambrailo traded to Atlanta for a 2018 fifth-round pick, per source.

 

^^^

This is why we're lucky to have Nsekhe. Sambrailo is AWFUL.

 

Related note: how bad has TJ Clemmings actually been? He was just cut and our OG depth is...not great. He's got some tools. 

[MassSkinsFan]

23 hours ago, OVCChairman said:

I agree about Lavaman but for some reason Gruden and co. loves the guy... what am I (are we) missing? 

 

Probably the reason is the same reason they loved Licht. 

 

8 hours ago, carex said:

so, does Rollier being held out last night mean the Skins could be starting him week one?

 

I think it means he made the team in 2017.

 

So, for everyone like me who wants Roullier at C and Long at LG, let's

 

ROLL WITH ROULLIER!!!

[RandyHolt]

I hope our run game gets Chase led.... rolling rolling rolling... Rawhide!

[skinny21]

If Roullier starts against Philly... man, that's a rough 'first' outing.  

[Wyvern]

2 hours ago, skinny21 said:

If Roullier starts against Philly... man, that's a rough 'first' outing.  

Agreed.  The Skins have been lackadaisical about their Center position and Roullier is going to be asked to really step up to cover for that fact. At least he's a true center, instead of yet another converted guard.

[skinny21]

7 hours ago, Wyvern said:

Agreed.  The Skins have been lackadaisical about their Center position and Roullier is going to be asked to really step up to cover for that fact. At least he's a true center, instead of yet another converted guard.

It was unfortunate they didn't land Kelly last year, but yeah, other than that it doesn't seem they've done much to address the position.  Montgomery and now Long have been thoroughly underwhelming.  Roullier earning the starting gig (and solidifying it) would be a major coup.  Shouldn't really expect too much from him though.  

 

I wonder if Kalis will challenge for a starting role at some point.  If we wind up with 2 rooks that play well on an oline featuring Trent, Scherff and Moses... man.  There will/would be growing pains, I'm sure, but talk about a coup...