ESPN.com: Kirk Cousins contract talks with Redskins on positive track

[markmills67]

15 minutes ago, Spearfeather said:

 

I don't think they're contradicting each other. They both want Cousins here.

If Allen wanted cousins here he would have had him signed to a LTD by now.

 

HTTR 

[Riggo'sRangers]

10 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

See, the thing is that while Kirk compiled a lot of stats, he came up small in some very big situations towards the end of the year.  He had opportunities to put the team on his back and get a win several times and just couldn't do it.  (Granted with a PATHETIC defense and no running game.)  

 

I still subscribe to the theory that IF the team had won ONE more game, Carolina, Arizona or NYG, and made the playoffs, then Kirk already has a deal.  But he played average to below-average in all of those games, and the team is just not 100% sold that he's the guy they want to commit that type of money to.  

 

If Kirk had played well (like he played against Green Bay) in all of those games, maybe they steal 2. Who knows?

 

But the problem is that I still don't think they KNOW what they have in him.  It's odd.  They really should by now.  But they just don't seem to know.  

 

I am completely confident, however, that IF he balls out and they win a playoff game or two (or more), they'll lock him up.  Danny knows how to close that deal.  

Probably the most lucid posts I've seen regarding this topic.  To me, this is it, AND Kirk's seeming resentment of it.  Yin & yang.  Just a weird unfortunate state of affairs.  My hope is that his play will define what happens going forward.  

[Spearfeather]

10 minutes ago, markmills67 said:

If Allen wanted cousins here he would have had him signed to a LTD by now.

 

HTTR 

 

So if he signs him to a five year deal by the 17th, what will that mean ?

[purbeast]

35 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

See, the thing is that while Kirk compiled a lot of stats, he came up small in some very big situations towards the end of the year.  He had opportunities to put the team on his back and get a win several times and just couldn't do it.  (Granted with a PATHETIC defense and no running game.)  

 

I still subscribe to the theory that IF the team had won ONE more game, Carolina, Arizona or NYG, and made the playoffs, then Kirk already has a deal.  But he played average to below-average in all of those games, and the team is just not 100% sold that he's the guy they want to commit that type of money to.  

I'm not disagreeing with your statement, but do people realize that most quarterbacks don't start as a HOFer and they make more mistakes earlier on in their career than they do later on?  It's a learning process and you learn from your mistakes.  I also think people really underestimate just how much our ****ty run game was and how much pressure that puts on a QB.  It just puts the ball in their hands more often which in turn will just mean you are prone to making more mistakes.

 

I also agree with the 2nd thing I quoted, and it's so stupid.  Had Hopkins made the FG against the Bengals, or the defense not folded against the Lions, and the Skins make the playoffs, he would be signed right now IMO.  And it would have meant he did absolutely nothing differently this season.

[Burgold]

I dunno that Kirk came up small. He did against the Giants, but otherwise, it was really the defense. He got them the lead or produced the go ahead points only to see the D completely cave.

[Skinsinparadise]

Mike Jones was just on 106.7 and he was asked about these stories about Kirk might not wanting to be back.  Here is his take on the subject more or less.  And I know first-hand the discussion about Kirk being justified for feeling happy or unhappy with this club and the subject of Dan & Bruce are polarizing subjects.   So I am not saying any of this to bring those debates here.  I am just repeating what was said and the vibe that Jones is giving off and adding a few things that others have said that I think piece together a possible scenario.  If people want to doubt that scenario, that's cool.  I am not saying I got any idea if its all so or not.  And I completed a couple of Jones' half-thoughts for him as to editorial.  Anyone feel free to listen to that segment and decide for yourself what he means.   I'll re-listen to it myself when that segment is posted.  Sometimes I catch a mistake or two on a re-listen.  But its tough to be off on a vibe. Jones vibe to me was clear as a bell. 

 

Jones said multiple times he's talked to this FO to get their side and also talked to Kirk's side.  And here's the vibe Jones gets from Kirk's side.  

 

A.  He has doubts about whether Kirk cares for this specific FO.  

B.  He said Kirk hasn't forgotten the back story of what it took to start and what's transpired so far as to the contract.  Jay-Scot were in Kirk's corner but Dan-Bruce initially weren't and needed to be convinced when it came to Kirk starting.  

C.  Kirk could get over that but then it came off that Dan-Bruce weren't in his corner to the contract in 2016.  They didn't quite believe.

D.  Kirk could get over that, too.  But that sentiment extended to 2017, too 

E.  This new heavy handed we love Kirk and we want Kirk drill from the FO is somewhat of a new vibe coming from Bruce-Dan.  And it comes off to Kirk as perhaps desperate and insincere as they are finally realizing that he won't take their low ball offers.

 

Kicking in with other things that might be relevant

A.  The whole idea that we've heard from multiple reporters that the tone is better now and improved.  Doesn't that imply the tone wasn't that great initially?  Otherwise why make a thing about how the tone is much better?

B.  Depending on the negotiator some do tend to take hard ball tactics where they downplay the players accomplishments in order to justify a lower price

B.  We've heard reporters talk about Kirk is curious about the state of the FO and its a factor in his decision. If I recall Breer was one who said it, and I remember one other guy said something about it too but its escaping me as to whom that was.

C.  He's lost arguably 2 of the three guys in this organization who had his back in a big way.  They are gone

 

Back to Jones.  He said Kirk prides himself on loyalty.  And he doesn't see Bruce and Dan as being guys that have been in his corner from the get go.  (Who knows how many back stories exist on this front but I recall the one about Dan blowing Kirk off in the locker room after the Cleveland win).   And Kirk can indeed get over that but in his mind that vibe extended to the 2016 off season as to them treating him like they don't believe he's the real deal.  And Kirk could have indeed gotten over that, too.  But the same drill extended to 2017 until recently.  And that was the kicker.  3 strikes.   And while the love-rhetoric has improved -- a market deal still hasn't come.  Meanwhile he sees the gushing rhetoric from the Raiders about Carr and they offered him a market deal.  He sees the Lions GM say they will pay whatever it takes to keep Stafford.   It brings home the Redskins don't see him like that.  And that's what he means by he wants to play where he's loved.  A team that's all in.   And if the Redskins don't buy into it, cool.  He's confident other teams will.  

 

The good news:  IMO Jones rap contains a consistently which has kept me optimistic in spite of what people say.  Kirk's bottom line is still market value.  The Redskins bottom line is they have not offered market value.   When/if the Redskins offer it, Kirk's main desires are met.  I'd figure that alone would be the game changer.   I'd say the one thing is clear, Kirk isn't taking a team discount.  And if the team is stuck on that, they will likely lose him.   If any of this stuff is true, I don't blame him.  And in his defense, few players give team discounts regardless of context.

 

makes me wonder? I was listening to Dianne Russini on ESPN today and she doubled down on something we've heard multiple say and that is people at Redskins Park believe in Colt McCoy.  It's not hard to paint a picture that the team is still weighing whether they will offer Kirk 24-25 million or ride Colt for 3 million a year.  That part of the story has really been consistent for months.  

 

 

 

[RWJ]

22 minutes ago, Spearfeather said:

 

So if he signs him to a five year deal by the 17th, what will that mean ?

It will mean that those that thought he didn't want him here were wrong.  I'll admit my fault but sure seems like KC's last year in DC will be in 2017.  Love KC and wish he would be signed by Redskins Brass to a LTD but doesn't look like it will happen and we will be drafting our next (HOPEFULLY) franchise QB in 2018.  Sudfeld and McCoy are not the answer, IMO.

[Spearfeather]

4 minutes ago, RWJ said:

It will mean that those that thought he didn't want him here were wrong.  I'll admit my fault but sure seems like KC's last year in DC will be in 2017. 

 

I don't think it seems that way at all.  Seems like he'll be here at least through next year but most likely gets signed to a deal by the 17th.

[markmills67]

32 minutes ago, Spearfeather said:

 

So if he signs him to a five year deal by the 17th, what will that mean ?

My whole point was that I believe that if Allen wanted cousins signed to a LTD there is no reason why it couldn't already be done, it's not rocket science is it, cousins agent says we want average of $25m per year for 5 years with $70m guaranteed.  Allen responds with we will offer $22.5m per with $55m guaranteed.but cousins camp say we will not take a penny less than what we have asked for, so now Allen has got to make his mind up yes or no. This could have been sorted months ago, I don't believe that it will always go to the wire. Allen knows what they want so pay up or move on.

 

HTTR 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

@Skinsinparadise All of that makes sense unfortunately.  Thanks for taking the time to write it up.

 

Some here only want to take what both sides are saying publicly as gospel. It's very naive to think that way.  Unless Jones is just making stuff up to talk about, which I seriously doubt, his take aligns with what I've been saying about how timing does matter and the FO should have made this happen long ago by just sucking it up and cutting the fat check prior to the tag.

[Spearfeather]

1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

 

Some here only want to take what both sides are saying publicly as gospel.

 

... while some others completely ignore it.

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 minutes ago, Spearfeather said:

 

... while some others completely ignore it.

 

 

Because the only things that can be said that really matter are that a deal has been struck or not.

 

A beat reporter with sources weighs heavier to me than PR speak by folks who have every reason to say the right things.

 

Its not like what Jones is saying is some crazy talk.  It makes sense.  It's sucks and I hope it's not true, but it's not way out of left field.

[Voice_of_Reason]

53 minutes ago, purbeast said:

I'm not disagreeing with your statement, but do people realize that most quarterbacks don't start as a HOFer and they make more mistakes earlier on in their career than they do later on?  It's a learning process and you learn from your mistakes.  I also think people really underestimate just how much our ****ty run game was and how much pressure that puts on a QB.  It just puts the ball in their hands more often which in turn will just mean you are prone to making more mistakes.

And here's where "facts of life" is against Cousins:  Most QBs who are looking for a deal worth $24 mil/year have more than 2 years of starting experience.  Cousins sat behind Griffin for his first 2 years (essentially), and then had a fill-in opportunity.  Now he's had 2 good years (though not GREAT years, at least not in terms of wins), but he's looking to get paid like a top 5 QB.  Which he isn't.  At least not yet.  He might be down the road, but he's not that guy yet.  

 

And yes, I understand that the team gave him the leverage by tagging him in 2015.  I get that. 

 

53 minutes ago, purbeast said:

I also agree with the 2nd thing I quoted, and it's so stupid.  Had Hopkins made the FG against the Bengals, or the defense not folded against the Lions, and the Skins make the playoffs, he would be signed right now IMO.  And it would have meant he did absolutely nothing differently this season.

I actually don't think that Hopkins and defense would have changed anything IF the last 6 games still ended up the same way.  It's possible that they 'Skins would have made the playoffs, but losing 4 of 6 (and playing average at best) and then losing a playoff game would not have helped Kirk.  

 

It really was the losing 4 of 6 with average/bad performances that doomed him.  

[Spearfeather]

7 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Because the only things that can be said that really matter are that a deal has been struck or not.

 

A beat reporter with sources weighs heavier to me than PR speak by folks who have every reason to say the right things.

 

Its not like what Jones is saying is some crazy talk.  It makes sense.  It's sucks and I hope it's not true, but it's not way out of left field.

 

Gruden said this:

 

Quote

 “I don’t know what Kirk has to do as a quarterback to prove that he belongs in the National Football League as a starter. I think he had a great year. … Overall, I think the amount of times he dropped back to pass and made some unbelievable throws in some great games, I think he belongs in the NFL as a starting quarterback, that’s for sure, and hopefully it’s here.”

 

and got an extension.

 

 

 

Cousins says he wants to be here, and there's little to no reason to believe otherwise.

Allen said he wants Cousins here. We'll find out by the 17th how honest he was being.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

@Spearfeather

 

Agreed, if Cousins accepts an LTD for less than 25M per, than I'll believe his sources are garbage.  

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

@Skinsinparadise All of that makes sense unfortunately.  Thanks for taking the time to write it up.

 

Some here only want to take what both sides are saying publicly as gospel. It's very naive to think that way.  Unless Jones is just making stuff up to talk about, which I seriously doubt, his take aligns with what I've been saying about how timing does matter and the FO should have made this happen long ago by just sucking it up and cutting the fat check prior to the tag.

 

Thanks.  Yeah I've discovered its not easy to have a nuanced conversation about Bruce or Dan.  So I am entering dangerous territory here.   But for anyone who wants to debate me on this.  It's not the GM debate.  This is apples to oranges to that.  I got no idea what's going on here or feel strongly about anything.  All I could do is piece together theories.  On the contract, I've been one of the optimists and I have had the FO's back for the most part.  I need this to play out before complaining.  But to give a little nod to the pessimists on this, I've been paying attention to that narrative in case it plays out.  

 

 Its not hard to get a picture painted about how Bruce is as a negotiator.  Cooley painted it the best IMO where he went through how Bruce negotiated his contract.  And he talked about his style.  The picture i have in my mind is he's a tough negotiator.  He's nice and cute about it.  But he low balls as a tactic and stays hard on that number for as long as possible and hope the other side eventually breaks.  I've not heard if he justifies the low ball offers but I know from others who talk about negotiations in sports -- usually a low ball offer is accompanied with an explanation in the hope they convince the player to take the deal.

 

All of that I think helps some negotiations and maybe even most of them.  Bruce pulled off some really good low ball deals.  The Zach Brown and Terrell Pryor deals were brilliant.   He's gotten some good extensions done too with players in house.   But on the chance that's how he approached Kirk, I could see it backfiring in a big way. And its the vibe that Mike Jones gave.  Kirk has water under the bridge as to being undervalued.  Bruce isn't the guy associated to being in Kirk's corner.   So the guys leading the contract for the team are offering arguably low offers which Kirk sees as them undervaluing him-- and they happen to be the same guys whose roots run a little deep on that front.

 

With the whole Bruce-Scot squabble that leaked to the press.  Bruce's side:  Scot was a drunk.   Scot's side:  Bruce shot down Scot's idea of signing Kirk in 2015. It was clearly important for Scot's camp to get that out there.  I would gather that could be because Scot's camp already knew there might be some tension with Kirk's camp and Bruce.   And that was the best way for them to strike back. 

 

So you got the Raiders and Lions fawning all over their QBs.  You got Papa Shanny talking about Kirk being the next Joe Montana.   You got McVay joking to a reporter that he can't keep praising Kirk to reporters because as a Ram HC he could get accused of tampering but you guys know how he feels about him.  Lots of Love.  While back at Redskins Park, Kirk is negotiating with the same guy who didn't initially believe in him as a starter, didn't agree with the GM to resign him in 2015 (if true) and is perhaps explaining to Kirk's agent why he doesn't deserve a market value deal for the 2nd year in a row (or at the very least doesn't offer him one).  

 

But now out of the blue, he gets showered with we love you Kirk but without the deal to match.   And he's thinking screw this, I am not doing this low ball negotiation game any longer.  I'll have multiple teams fawning over me as a FA and get the market deal and even likely more than that.   He's got guys like Dan Graziano saying on air that he could be NFL's first 30 million a year QB.   Some say that Bruce getting Jordan Reed, Moses extended is proof that Bruce isn't necessarily always cheap.  Yeah I agree.  But that actually might hurt the sentiment with Kirk versus help it.  Reed and Moses were paid as among the elite at their positions.  So Kirk might be thinking where's my deal?
 

Is this all so?  I don't know but that's my best shot at running the narrative of the too little too late/too much water under the bridge idea that multiple reporters espouse.

 

And with all of this, I still think a deal gets done.  I am not even wavering.  But I accede there aren't many people on that hill with me. 

 

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

12 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

And with all of this, I still think a deal gets done.  I am not even wavering.  But I accede there aren't many people on that hill with me. 

 

 

 

 

Me too, if only for the fact that I think Bruce and Dan fear the fan backlash and potential revenge for Kirk when he lands elsewhere.  I can't say I'd blame them.  Basically, I see Bruce begrudgingly succumbing to The agents demands at the last minute.

[Skinsinparadise]

4 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

Me too, if only for the fact that I think Bruce and Dan fear the fan backlash and potential revenge for Kirk when he lands elsewhere.  I can't say I'd blame them.  Basically, I see Bruce begrudgingly succumbing to The agents demands at the last minute.

 

Yeah I don't know the ultimate reason for it getting done.  But this is my fall back reason.  Even if there is some internal debate about Colt versus Kirk or whatever is going on behind the scenes, I think they are savvy enough to see the fan backlash if they blow it.

 

Chris Russell said recently on air that his source with the team said they are having a hard time selling their higher end tickets-suites this off season and think it has to do with all the backlash from what went down with Scot.    And they want to get momentum back.    A deal with Kirk I think would be their best shot at it.  

[Tsailand]

Brees wasn't Brees for his first team.

[Voice_of_Reason]

7 minutes ago, Tsailand said:

Brees wasn't Brees for his first team.

And he wasn't paid as a top 5 QB with his first team.  

[LaRonDontLikeUgly]

12 minutes ago, Tsailand said:

Brees wasn't Brees for his first team.

And he didn't have Sean Payton calling 50 pass plays a game. 

[purbeast]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

And here's where "facts of life" is against Cousins:  Most QBs who are looking for a deal worth $24 mil/year have more than 2 years of starting experience.  Cousins sat behind Griffin for his first 2 years (essentially), and then had a fill-in opportunity.  Now he's had 2 good years (though not GREAT years, at least not in terms of wins), but he's looking to get paid like a top 5 QB.  Which he isn't.  At least not yet.  He might be down the road, but he's not that guy yet.  

People need to get over this idea that where QB's rank in annual salary is where they stand as far as ranking QB's go in the NFL.  That simply is not the case and not how the market works.  

 

How many playoff games has Andrew Luck, Derrick Carr, and Matt Stafford won?  Check out where they rank as far as salaries go.

Brady isn't even in top 10 of highest paid QB's.  Rogers isn't even in the top 5.

 

(source: https://overthecap.com/position/quarterback/)

[Dissident2]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

A.  He has doubts about whether Kirk cares for this specific FO.  

 

I've always thought this, too. Kirk seems quite capable of detecting douchebaggery. Not that this FO makes it difficult. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Just found this Q & A from Jones, he hits some of the same points that he made on air

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/football-insider/wp/2017/06/27/where-things-stand-with-the-redskins-and-kirk-cousins-20-days-away-from-the-franchise-deadline/?utm_term=.40734e2214ab

The Sports Junkies have been hinting — but not saying — that there are non-monetary issues that work against a long term deal. Do you know what these are?

— Charles Feigenbaum

While he has a great relationship with coach Jay Gruden and is appreciative to Gruden for giving him his shot as a starting quarterback, Cousins has always understood that it took a lot of convincing by Gruden and former general manager Scot McCloughan to get Bruce Allen and Daniel Snyder to move on from Robert Griffin III. McCloughan wanted to give Cousins an extension in 2015; Snyder and Allen weren’t on board. McCloughan and Gruden wanted to get something done last offseason; Snyder and Allen still weren’t convinced. So, there has been a degree of distrust on the quarterback’s part as he has wondered if the top two people in the organization truly want him. This offseason, Snyder has gotten involved, communicating with Cousins and expressing his desire to keep him long-term. That should help some. But Cousins also knows that’s only lip service. Until the Redskins actually open the checkbook and extend a worthy offer, Cousins will not really know how much the owner and team president really want him.

 

It’s well-known that Cousins has good relationships with Rams coach Sean McVay and 49ers coach Kyle Shanahan, who served as his offensive coordinators here. Shanahan and his father, Mike, wanted to go to Cousins and scrap the whole RGIII experiment back in 2013, and Cousins has always appreciated the confidence they had in him. And he has a good relationship with both. If he’s still wary of things here, he will not sign just to sign. He’d rather play on another one-year franchise tag deal and then hit free agency next season and either go play for Shanahan or McVay, or find another more positive situation if neither needed him.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Mike Jones was just on 106.7 and he was asked about these stories about Kirk might not wanting to be back......(lots o' stuff)

 

So to summarize:

 

Cousins will feel he's wanted here if he's offered a good enough LTD.

 

Which, to me anyway, kinda renders everything else-this specific FO, the backstory,  whether or not Dan-Bruce were in his corner to the contract in 2016, etc--as irrelevant.

 

Which basically is what you feel, too lol...("Kirk's bottom line is still market value. When/if the Redskins offer it, Kirk's main desires are met.")

 

Which, because of that, I tend to chalk up the "Kirk doesn't feel loved/supported/whatthehellever" talk as filler...stuff to pad out the discussion about the ongoing contract negotiations during radio segments. They're not actually saying that stuff is why the Skins and Cousins haven't agreed to anything yet. At most Jones is saying why Cousins won't give the Skins a hometown discount. But that stopped being a thing about 3 months ago. Russini tried to take it further in saying there is no number that would soothe Kirk's damaged ego...I don't buy that for a nanosecond, no matter who she talked to (both that there is no number and that Kirk's ego is bruised on a deep level).

 

This part, though: "The whole idea that we've heard from multiple reporters that the tone is better now and improved.  Doesn't that imply the tone wasn't that great initially?  Otherwise why make a thing about how the tone is much better?"

 

The tone improved when Allen and Cousins' agent met face to face for the first time in 2 years. So I'm chalking it up to that more than anything. Kirk has probably sat down with Allen and Snyder once this offseason, back when he wanted to know if they had plans on trading him since sports media was running crazy with all sorts of trade speculations, especially the Rappaport tidbit about a 3-way trade involving Dallas and the 49ers. Kirk said he came away from that talk feeling Allen and Snyder definitely wanted him as their long-term solution at QB. Now that his agent has had multiple sit-downs with Allen (and I'm assuming Snyder), I can imagine Cousins' agent coming away from those meetings feeling that Kirk's bottom line may actually be possible, and conveying that to Kirk. So for me anyway, the improved "tone" is improved compared to hearing next to nothing moreso than it being a negative tone before. Allen feels you can conduct bidniz from a distance, doesn't have to be face to face...in this case, that thinking was probably a mistake unless you were gonna capitulate and meet Cousins' demands.

 

A question about the Colt McCoy part of your post: Do you really think anyone at Redskins Park is talking about how McCoy may be a good alternative right now?...January and February, sure...you'd be derelict to NOT discuss that possibility back then. But with three weeks before a LTD needs to be signed, knowing that if you don't get it done it sets in motion a whole new set of decisions and higher costs to consider, do you really think they're still trying to decide if McCoy is the way to go? In my mind they made that decision long ago. At best, they are wondering if Kirk just flats out decides he wants to move on and a LTD never gets done, do they THEN ride with Colt or not. But just logically speaking, the wondering whether or not they would be served just as well riding with Colt aspect in all of this has been asked and answered long ago. I think Doug Williams coming out and saying publicly that the Skins' FO wants to sign Cousins "in the worst way" should put the McCoy speculation to rest.