ESPN.com: Kirk Cousins contract talks with Redskins on positive track

[purbeast]

18 minutes ago, Dissident2 said:

 

Absolutely it's not the norm. As said, it's never happened before in the history of the NFL. That's our FO/ownership for you. 

 

We are actually going into a season where it makes sense on some level to wish AGAINST the success of our franchise QB (similar in some ways to last year, but on an even larger scale). Wrap your mind around that, lol. 

 

That should tell you all you need to know about Snyder/Allen for having created a scenario/atmosphere like that. 

 

 

As someone else mentioned in this thread or another thread, anytime you hear "this is the first time in the history of the NFL" associated with the Redskins, it is 9/10 times going to be a bad thing.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

6 minutes ago, Tay said:

 

If you're referencing the Graz piece, there are not a lot of people that agree with that $30M point. Any team that's willing to give Kirk $30M per is putting themselves at a serious competitive disadvantage to build around him.

 

If Kirk's sole goal is to make the most money possible, then he should wait. If he's targeting 1-2 teams he's taking the risk that the team he wants to go to won't be in position to draft one of the elite QBs in next years class. A stud rookie QB at $5M per on a developing team is more valuable than Kirk at $25-$27M per.

 

Good post. 

 

Cousins really has no downside (financially) to waiting another year. He could play pretty poorly (compared to what he's done) and someone would still sign him to a $10M per year deal at a minimum. And, the odds that he plays so poorly to get to that outcome are very long. So, if he's looking to cash in, why not collect his $24M and then sign a long-term deal with someone? 

[UK Skins]

25 minutes ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

Adding to your points, no one who has any insecurity whatsoever signs back to back franchise tags and bets on himself to exceed expectations.  A player who is scared to show what he can do and decides not to play at all under the tag could be called a "little girl" but not a player who courageously accepts the challenge from a front office that he knew did not believe in him. 

 

I agree that is one reading of the situation, and you may well be right. But stories, if true, like him hating McCoy (who isn't half the QB he is) make you wonder if he is trying to grab as much money as he can, knowing he isn't going to be around here very long. Because that is really insecure. Who the hell cares if the back-up QB is better liked than you are, just grow up!!

[BigHuv21]

15 minutes ago, Tay said:

 

A stud rookie QB at $5M per on a developing team is more valuable than Kirk at $25-$27M per.

Agree! There are 5 top 20 projected QBs in the 2018 class.  Kirk and his team have to factor that into the equation. The "new is always better" may be the Skins FO train of thought as well. Who knows. Wait until something actually happens July 17th before we ponder Plan B-Z 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

For those downplaying how Kirk allegedly feels about the FO and questioning his male fortitude, it sounds like you've already picked your side.

 

Ask yourself this though, if your current employer and leadership were douchebags and you had other suitors lined up that believe in you and wish to bring you on, you wouldn't be thinking about making a change?

 

I think many of us feel like this in everyday jobs - where we like the folks we work directly with but leadership can grind your gears.  But most of us don't have other employers lined up waiting to sweep us away so we stick around and live with it.  Kirk doesn't have to live with it.

 

As someone else stated, I don't think you can say the guy is weak minded when he's confident enough in himself to play under the tag with no qualms and bet on himself....again.

[Dissident2]

1 hour ago, Tay said:

The notion that the team wanted the QB to regress if foolish. Last offseason they wanted a bigger sample size before committing big money to Kirk. We don't know the details of the negotiations this offseason, so any speculation to this point is just that. Speculation.

 

They got that sample size and they still haven't committed.

 

The bigger point is that NOW we are in a position where, if a long-term deal isn't done, it will actually be in the FO's best public interest (in their minds) to see Cousins, their franchise QB, fail. That would clearly be the best possible scenario for these buffoons if there's no LTD. 

 

If Cousins goes out and regresses and looks more like he did in 2014, they can tell everyone how smart they were to not sign him. But if he goes out and lights it up again for a third straight season (far more likely), then what do they do? Pay him 30+ million a year? Franchise him a third straight time for even more than that? They're bound to lose him at that point, and then the fan base should rightfully revolt. Twenty-plus years waiting for a true franchise QB, went through the RG3 debacle, finally found our guy who was right there all along (and whose success would significantly LESSEN the scope of the RG3 debacle since he was from that same class), and we let him go as he's coming into his prime. I can't think of anything that would look worse for these guys or be a bigger stain on their record. 

 

If they can't get a LTD done, I can't imagine Allen and Snyder will - deep down - want to see Kirk Cousins succeed in 2017, because his success will make them look exponentially more foolish as the year progresses. And being in a position like that is utterly insane and yet another mule-kick to the nads of this great and long-suffering fan base. 

[Tay]

3 minutes ago, Dissident2 said:

 

They got that sample size and they still haven't committed.

 

 

We don't know if the team has made an offer showing a commitment that was rejected by Kirk. We do know that they didn't want to commit last year, but we don't know the details of this years negotiations.

[BurgundyBooger]

Kirk smells the BS from Snyder and Allen, and he's conducting himself accordingly.

 

As fans, we see the history, the uniforms, the scoreboard. Kirk is deep in it and it's obvious he doesn't like what he sees which is consistent with what most of us have only speculated on since Snyder bought the team. The difference between Kirk and every other starting QB who's had to suffer this bush league organization is that he's 1.) not a desperate veteran w/ a dearth of options (e.g., Tony Banks, Shane Matthews, Danny Wuerffel, Rex Grossman); 2.) not some malleable, wide-eyed rookie or young QB w/ no track record of success and therefore no leverage (e.g., Patrick Ramsey, Jason Campbell); 3.) not a selfish merc just looking for a payday (e.g, Jeff George, Donovan McNabb).

 

Kirk doesn't need to put up with this **** like the other guys had to or were apathetic towards because all they saw was the $$$. If there were 31 companies in the same sector as that of my current employer and the organization traditionally ranked among the worst in performance and management I wouldn't be reluctant to leave simply because I'm familiar with the ins-and-outs of its system, people, or culture. But that's just me. I know of plenty of people who would, either because of familiarity and not wanting to break from their comfort zone or because of the money. Kirk has always been confident in his abilities and the last isn't even an applicable concern for Kirk, so wtf would really keep him here?

 

My opinion: Kirk will be tagged, then his ass is gone for good.

[PartyPosse]

2 hours ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

There is an article on ESPN.com talking about the next big money contracts for QBs.  One disturbing part when they are talking about Kirk is that there is speculation that if he doesn't sign a LTD and hits the market next off-season, his new contract will pay him $30+ million/yr.  

 

Our FO isn't going to offer him anywhere close to that this year, and they shouldn't, though they should overpay to keep him (within reason).  But if I'm Kirk, that's gotta be a deal breaker right?  Get paid $24 million this year and get long term paid at $30 or $30+/yr starting next year, regardless of the team (assuming we would transition tag and match the best offer).

 

Financially, it really makes no sense for Kirk to sign a LTD with us this off-season so he can maximize his value for next off-season.  I know, what if he gets injured or has a horrible year.  Those are certainly factors, but Kirk believes in himself, so I doubt he would let those things sway his decision too much.  First, he's not injury prone and it would most likely be a fluke play/accident if he got hurt (they most always are).  

 

Second, he knows he can put up big numbers.  He's done it two years in a row, breaking a lot of team records in the process.  A lot depends on our WR corps, but if they are dropping balls or not running the right routes, injured, etc. then he will get the benefit of the doubt from a lot of teams.  And if he has a bad/down year, he will still get paid by some team.  

 

Makes the most sense for him to gamble on himself, going out and having a season like the last two or even his best season of his career and maximizing his potential future earnings (if it happens).  The likely worst case scenario is he has a average year (below the last two), then another team or we sign him for something low like $20 mil/yr.  He is still going to get paid a **** ton of money regardless.

Essentially he's taking advantage of the fact that the team spent a boatload of money to continue surrounding him with an elite offensive squad so he can go ahead and screw them financially after the year.

3 hours ago, bowhunter said:

Some much conjecture and opinion from the media. Kirk likes it here, Kirk hates it here. Kirk wants to feel appreciated, Kirk is all about the money. Kirk wants to play with Kyle. Kirk wants to play for Gruden. Bruce wants him. Bruce doesn't believe in him.

-Both sides have expressed an desire to get a LTD done, I hope that is all we need to know.

You know the one thing your DON'T hear? He wants to win a championship.

[Hooper]

49 minutes ago, Dissident2 said:

 

If they can't get a LTD done, I can't imagine Allen and Snyder will - deep down - want to see Kirk Cousins succeed in 2017, because his success will make them look exponentially more foolish as the year progresses. And being in a position like that is utterly insane and yet another mule-kick to the nads of this great and long-suffering fan base. 

I have been saying this as well.

 

If they can't get a deal done, do not underestimate Allen and Snyder. It is actually their best leverage -- the fact that they are shady as can be. Could totally see them undercutting Kirk in some way.

 

On the flip side, I also think there is no way Snyder simply lets Cousins walk if he has another good year.  That's the media looking for drama and not doing their homework on Danny. He will transition tag Cousins at the very least and then try to match another team's offer. Even if it doesn't make sense.

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Okay, I'm convinced...Party Posse is none other than Bruce Allen.

 

Now the guy is taking advantage of the Redskins and the super duper offense they've put around him.

 

My god.

[Hooper]

6 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

 

You know the one thing your DON'T hear? He wants to win a championship.

 

Probably because he looks at the trainwreck the Skins have been under Snyder and realizes odds are his chances are better somewhere else.

 

About the only thing the Skins have going for them with Kirk are some nice weapons and Jay Gruden -- who I think is the only coach under Snyder to have two winning seasons in a row, which is just flat nuts.

[Dissident2]

51 minutes ago, Tay said:

 

We don't know if the team has made an offer showing a commitment that was rejected by Kirk. We do know that they didn't want to commit last year, but we don't know the details of this years negotiations.

 

I think we know plenty so far.

 

2016:

http://www.scout.com/nfl/redskins/story/1686739-deadline-passes-redskins-lowballed-cousins

 

2017:

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/redskins-reportedly-continue-to-stick-with-lowball-extension-offer-for-kirk-cousins/

[Tay]

There doesn't have to be a bad guy in this regardless of the outcome. It could be that reasonable parties couldn't agree on a deal for whatever reason.

 

I would be disappointed in the team if they didn't offer Cousin's a market value deal. If they do that, I'll simply accept whatever the outcome may be.

[Tay]

1 minute ago, Dissident2 said:

 

I think we know plenty so far.

 

2016:

http://www.scout.com/nfl/redskins/story/1686739-deadline-passes-redskins-lowballed-cousins

 

2017:

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/redskins-reportedly-continue-to-stick-with-lowball-extension-offer-for-kirk-cousins/

 

That 2017 article is based on the reported initial offer from the team. That's the same offer that Casserly said shows the team is serious about getting a deal done this offseason. An offer apparently no one knows details about other than Kirk's agent saying the guarantees are low, but that "low ball" $40M guaranteed, if fully guaranteed is exactly what Carr just signed for. That's not a ridiculous low point to start negotiations.

 

We don't know what the team has on the table for Kirk. As Eric Schaffer said last week on Grant and Danny, the team doesn't like to disclose the details of the negotiations.

[NewCliche21]

5 minutes ago, Tay said:

There doesn't have to be a bad guy in this regardless of the outcome. It could be that reasonable parties couldn't agree on a deal for whatever reason.

 

I would be disappointed in the team if they didn't offer Cousin's a market value deal. If they do that, I'll simply accept whatever the outcome may be.

 

Wouldn't that make the team the bad guy if they're the ones being unreasonable?

[Tay]

1 minute ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

Wouldn't that make the team the bad guy if they're the ones being unreasonable?

 

I said there doesn't have to be. There "could be" if that's the case.

[SkinsPassion4Life]

I have to laugh at this perception that Dan and Bruce don't really believe in Kirk...it was GMSM and Jay who believe in him.

 

Scot backed Kirk in relation to RG3...not saying much....I saw no evidence that Scot ever wanted to pay Kirk big money.

 

At the start of 2015; why would Dan/Bruce believe in Kirk?    He was benched and made 3rd string the previous year....he looked like a guy who was going to cry after every Interception

[NewCliche21]

1 minute ago, Tay said:

 

I said there doesn't have to be. There "could be" if that's the case.

 

Ah, okay.  I read it as a defense of both parties, not a hypothetical.  My apologies.

[PartyPosse]

14 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Okay, I'm convinced...Party Posse is none other than Bruce Allen.

 

Now the guy is taking advantage of the Redskins and the super duper offense they've put around him.

 

My god.

Just saying that kirk's stats are reflective upon the other 10 men on the field as much as him and right now the talent/money spent will end up costing the redskins in the long run. It's not necessarily a bad thing if we win, however if the defense continues to hold us back and Kirk continues to play as a fringe top 10 QB, I think the money he would want would be best served on that side of the ball. I truly believe you can get above average play from a lesser QB with that level of talent around him at a fraction of the price. Who? I don't know, but I'm not the one getting paid the big bucks to evaluate.

[NewCliche21]

1 minute ago, PartyPosse said:

Just saying that kirk's stats are reflective upon the other 10 men on the field as much as him and right now the talent/money spent will end up costing the redskins in the long run. It's not necessarily a bad thing if we win, however if the defense continues to hold us back and Kirk continues to play as a fringe top 10 QB, I think the money he would want would be best served on that side of the ball. I truly believe you can get above average play from a lesser QB with that level of talent around him at a fraction of the price. Who? I don't know, but I'm not the one getting paid the big bucks to evaluate.

 

Wait, so is Kirk playing like a fringe-top-ten quarterback, or is that Spencer Long and Chris Thompson?  I mean, if they all have responsibility as much as Kirk, then maybe it's the other ten that are preventing him from being the next Brady?

And how could we judge someone to be a lesser or better QB?  They're equally only 50% responsible for any of their stats.

Your argument only holds 50% of the water.

[PartyPosse]

19 minutes ago, Hooper said:

 

Probably because he looks at the trainwreck the Skins have been under Snyder and realizes odds are his chances are better somewhere else.

 

About the only thing the Skins have going for them with Kirk are some nice weapons and Jay Gruden -- who I think is the only coach under Snyder to have two winning seasons in a row, which is just flat nuts.

I don't really know if I see this team as the train wreck others seem to. The team has had 3 winning seasons out of 5, 2 division championships and 2 of those came during the whole RG3 debacle where we survived without first round picks and the salary cap penalty. We are in great shape cap wise, have a ton of young talent on both sides of the ball. We just drafted a potential stud in Allen to help fix our front 7 issues not to mention a pretty solid rounds 2 through 7 were effective in addressing key concerns. I also think a lot of the FO "drama" was played up by the media where they were taking advantage of easy targets.

 

if Kirk considers this team a train wreck now then he's in for a rude awakening if he wants to go to SF.

[elkabong82]

1 hour ago, BurgundyBooger said:

Kirk smells the BS from Snyder and Allen, and he's conducting himself accordingly.

 

 

 

If this was true he would have demanded a trade. Instead, per his own words, he went to Snyder asking if the team was planning on trading him due to all the rumors falsely claiming that's what his side wanted. Snyder said no, and Kirk was good with that. Those aren't the actions of a man who doesn't want to be here. 

 

Kirk and Allen have both consistently brought up the deadline as driving deals. It seems both sides are content to wait until that point, or near it, for the real offers to come out and a deal get made. 

[PartyPosse]

2 minutes ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

Wait, so is Kirk playing like a fringe-top-ten quarterback, or is that Spencer Long and Chris Thompson?  I mean, if they all have responsibility as much as Kirk, then maybe it's the other ten that are preventing him from being the next Brady?

And how could we judge someone to be a lesser or better QB?  They're equally only 50% responsible for any of their stats.

Your argument only holds 50% of the water.

Accumulating stats and how you perform are two different things. But if you're putting spencer long and Chris Thompson in the same boat as Kirk in terms of responsibility then you can at least understand why I'm concerned with paying Kirk 25 million a year.

 

i know it was a petty attempt to discredit my opinion so I won't take it personally. The overall talent around Kirk is better than the talent that is Kirk.

[NewCliche21]

Just now, PartyPosse said:

Accumulating stats and how you perform are two different things. But if you're putting spencer long and Chris Thompson in the same boat as Kirk in terms of responsibility then you can at least understand why I'm concerned with paying Kirk 25 million a year.

 

i know it was a petty attempt to discredit my opinion so I won't take it personally. The overall talent around Kirk is better than the talent that is Kirk.

 

It wasn't petty in the least, and certainly not personal.  Your argument plays both sides of the coin, and that just doesn't work.  How do you know the overall talent is better than Kirk?  Things hadn't changed a lot between the time RGIII was benched and Kirk took over, but sacks and pressures were down.  How can you assign any credit or blame for any player on any play if you make them only half responsible for said play?  How can you define a good quarterback if his body of work is completely dependent on every other player?

I get what you're saying, that it's a group project ultimately, but you can't just assign credit and blame at your convenience.