Fixing the The United States Democratic Party

LadySkinsFan · May 29, 2017

The property taxes are high in Texas cities and suburbs because no personal income taxes. In Austin, the rates are almost as high as in Fairfax County, one reason why I won't buy there.

If termed agricultural land, taxes are lower.

I'm not going to condone or back off from a woman's bodily autonomy, and that means the right to choose. Don't like abortions, don't have one.

I'm for more background checks for private and gun show sales. Also, if on the no fly list, no gun. Also, need to suspend HIPAA in regards to mental illness. Also no assault weapons, weapons of war. There are enough shotguns, handguns, and rifles available.

I would like to see restrictions on arms sales to other countries.

@DCGoldPants · May 29, 2017

Quote

Biden Slams Democrats for Silence on Middle-Class Struggles

LYNDHURST, New Jersey — Former Vice President Joe Biden questioned the Democratic Party's strategy for targeting middle-class voters, suggesting Sunday that Democrats "haven't spoken enough to the fears and aspirations to the people we come from."

"Because of the negative campaign that [President Donald] Trump ran, how much did we hear about that guy making 50,000 bucks on an assembly line, [and] the woman — his wife — making $28,000 as a hostess?" Biden asked a crowd of 1,200 at a campaign rally here.

"They have $78,000, two kids, [are] living in a metropolitan area, and they can hardly make it," he said. "When was the last time you heard us talk about those people?"

The Dangerous Myth That Hillary Clinton Ignored the Working Class

To many white Trump voters, the problem wasn’t her economic stance, but the larger vision—a multi-ethnic social democracy—that it was a part of.

"But here is the troubling reality for civically minded liberals looking to justify their preferred strategies: Hillary Clinton talked about the working class, middle-class jobs, and the dignity of work constantly. And she still lost.

She detailed plans to help coal miners and steel workers. She had decades of ideas to help parents, particularly working moms, and their children. She had plans to help young men who were getting out of prison and old men who were getting into new careers. She talked about the dignity of manufacturing jobs, the promise of clean-energy jobs, and the Obama administration’s record of creating private-sector jobs for a record-breaking number of consecutive months."

She lost for 3 reasons:

1. People that are essentially single issue voters (abortion and gun control being the big 2). They don't really care about the economics of the candidate or if the candidate is an unethical and immoral jerk. If you can check the box, even if it is a realization you came to in the last few years and the other candidate can't, they are going to vote for you.

2. Racists and misogynist

3. And people that bought into the lie that Trump could bring back the old well paying manufacturing jobs so that people could continue to live where they lived without getting new training and still make a good living even though the world is changing. (and sort of related to that, that Trump is some sort of genius that can easily fix essentially every problem (defeat ISIS, fix healthcare, etc).)

Mooka · May 30, 2017

4 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

For this and for the one re the GOP, I'm not sure I'm following the logic of the thread.

Are we proposing changes that would make the Dem (Or GOP) more electable? Or proposing changes that would make the US better?

I can think of a thousand ways Dems can win more elections.

99% of them run on the principle of 2 wrongs make a right.

Larry · May 30, 2017

33 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

For this and for the one re the GOP, I'm not sure I'm following the logic of the thread.

Are we proposing changes that would make the Dem (Or GOP) more electable? Or proposing changes that would make the US better?

This is the Democrat thread. They don't have to choose between making the country better or getting elected.

twa · May 30, 2017

7 minutes ago, Larry said:

This is the Democrat thread. Making the country better is how they get elected.

So making the country worse is how they have lost?

LadySkinsFan · May 30, 2017

41 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

For this and for the one re the GOP, I'm not sure I'm following the logic of the thread.

Are we proposing changes that would make the Dem (Or GOP) more electable? Or proposing changes that would make the US better?

I want to make the US better. Looking at the two parties' platforms, the Democrats are much closer to the ideal of We the People than the Republicans. So I choose that as my starting point.

tshile · May 30, 2017

I haven't read through all five pages, but I wanted to post my opinions on this. I have voted for democrats, but there are a couple things that make it hard for me to vote for them more often.

- The idea of leveling the playing field has turned into believing people are not responsible for their situations. This results in solutions I just cannot get behind. People should not be penalized because they had parents who sacrificed for their well being, so that people who had parents that didn't give two ****s can get an advantage. It's not my fault my parents saved for my education and yours spent their money on vacations/cars/whatever.

- They have the right on idea on the better-off people giving up more to help the worse-off people, but where they draw the lines irritates me. they come up with policies that mean the real rich in the country can get around because they have tax people/accountants, meanwhile people with money but not that much money get screwed. Clinton pitched a free university idea that would leave my kid out simply because my wife I live outside of DC and make too much money, even though we're not rich by any real measurement. Only an arbitrary one they decided one. This type of nonsense irritates me.

- Spare me the social justice warriorism. There's enough real racism, bigotry, and sexism to combat, we don't need to create nonsense.

DogofWar1 · May 30, 2017

1 hour ago, Kilmer17 said:

For this and for the one re the GOP, I'm not sure I'm following the logic of the thread.

Are we proposing changes that would make the Dem (Or GOP) more electable? Or proposing changes that would make the US better?

It's an interesting set of questions because ideally, those two questions would be redundant.

That they're not suggests some problems.

The core issue I think is the total mistrust of experts and institutions. Both have been watered down by quacks who took advantage of the lack of punishments for masquerading as experts (see: probably 70% of Fox "experts" for example of experts, and Rand Paul's bogus medical group for an example of institutions).

What this means is that a weatherman for San Diego has as much weight to most on global warming as a climatologist who has written 50 peer reviewed papers on the subject over thirty years. It also means some random dudes at Heritage carry the same weight as the CBO.

Ultimately, we, as a country, have invested a LOT of money, time, and expertise in prognostication. And the average person is like "meh" when the result of that comes out so long as someone on the other side threw together something on a napkin.

So that there may be daylight between "how to win" and "how to make America better" is a pretty serious problem.

I think for the purposes of the threat though we're trying to find where those two circles overlap.

tshile · May 30, 2017

4 minutes ago, DogofWar1 said:

It's an interesting set of questions because ideally, those two questions would be redundant.

That they're not suggests some problems.

Yup.

See Jumbo's thread - The death of expertise

While that one is not strictly political (or doesn't have to be), you could re-title it "Fixing the American voter" and the content would apply perfectly.

GhostofSparta · May 30, 2017

1 hour ago, Kilmer17 said:

For this and for the one re the GOP, I'm not sure I'm following the logic of the thread.

Are we proposing changes that would make the Dem (Or GOP) more electable? Or proposing changes that would make the US better?

Depends on which "side" you reside on. If you're a Dem, then this thread is both at the same time. After all, you support a side because you're aligned with their core beliefs (mostly, if not totally). Whereas GOPers will think it's one or the other (you want to make the country better? Be Republican! You want to get elected, try these strategies to fool voters/change your core beliefs...). It'll of course be the inverse in the other thread.

At least that's how I view it. This thread is supposed to be similar to a half-time locker room speech. Those on the same side try to figure out how to get back on top, not let the other team in to tell them why they suck.

@DCGoldPants · May 30, 2017

7 minutes ago, GhostofSparta said:

Depends on which "side" you reside on. If you're a Dem, then this thread is both at the same time. After all, you support a side because you're aligned with their core beliefs (mostly, if not totally). Whereas GOPers will think it's one or the other (you want to make the country better? Be Republican! You want to get elected, try these strategies to fool voters/change your core beliefs...). It'll of course be the inverse in the other thread.

At least that's how I view it. This thread is supposed to be similar to a half-time locker room speech. Those on the same side try to figure out how to get back on top, not let the other team in to tell them why they suck.

Good point.

I guess there are two angles.

1. Fix something so it performs better than it's competition

and/or

2. Fix something to be for the greater good

Goes for both threads.

Was thinking last night how the best thing for both would really be another major party FINALLY with enough people in enough seats that whoever the biggest majority is, would have to work with somebody to get things passed. Actually, learn how to give and take again. Don't need a bunch of parties. If you're going to be split up based on beliefs and visions of the future. I am tired of just 2 big boys going back and forth.

mcsluggo · May 30, 2017

Fox has some self help advice, based on the life of the Donald:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/05/27/how-to-be-better-stronger-person-by-being-more-like-president.html

Quote

Trumping your life: How to be a better, stronger person by being more like the president

By Dr. Keith AblowPublished May 27, 2017
Fox News

Weeks ago, I wrote the first installment of TRUMPING YOUR LIFE, delivering three ways you can change your life by following the example of President Trump.

This is the second of five installments I plan to share. If you take this Trump-inspired self-help advice seriously, I believe it will significantly improve your existence.

As a reminder, these were the first three ways to begin TRUMPING YOUR LIFE:

1) Don’t let anyone tell you you’re not good enough to work toward any goal. Just don’t forget the work.

2) Don’t mimic your competitors. Have the courage to be authentic.

3) Let yourself be righteously angry when people take you for a weakling, a fool or a fraud.

Now, onward . . .

(more at link, but i don;t really suggest you go there and pad this asshat's click count)

PeterMP · May 30, 2017

6 hours ago, tshile said:

I haven't read through all five pages, but I wanted to post my opinions on this. I have voted for democrats, but there are a couple things that make it hard for me to vote for them more often.

- The idea of leveling the playing field has turned into believing people are not responsible for their situations. This results in solutions I just cannot get behind. People should not be penalized because they had parents who sacrificed for their well being, so that people who had parents that didn't give two ****s can get an advantage. It's not my fault my parents saved for my education and yours spent their money on vacations/cars/whatever.

- They have the right on idea on the better-off people giving up more to help the worse-off people, but where they draw the lines irritates me. they come up with policies that mean the real rich in the country can get around because they have tax people/accountants, meanwhile people with money but not that much money get screwed. Clinton pitched a free university idea that would leave my kid out simply because my wife I live outside of DC and make too much money, even though we're not rich by any real measurement. Only an arbitrary one they decided one. This type of nonsense irritates me.

- Spare me the social justice warriorism. There's enough real racism, bigotry, and sexism to combat, we don't need to create nonsense.

Is helping people really punishing/penalizing other people? What about people whose parents have the attitude that once you are of high school that you are on your own. My parent's attitude was that if you want to go to college, you will find away to pay for it. You could live at home, but they weren't paying for college. I have a sister-in-law whose parents attitude was you are 18, out of high school and are an adult so move out. It wasn't that they were spending money vacations, it was a life philosophy about becoming an adult and being responsible for yourself and things that are important to you.

Is there a way that you can help those people without "penalizing" others?

And my parents weren't spending their money on lavish vacations. I grew up going to Cleveland to spend a week with my grandmother (and this was the late 1970s and early 1980s) for vacations most summers. My parents raised their 6 kids, adopted 2 more (nice white all American girls who were 4 and 5 whose mom decided she didn't want them because she wanted a relationships with a guy that didn't want kids), then did foster care for years, and now my mom has adopted 2 more (my dad has passed and again, two nice white all American kids).

Do you really want the US government going through people's finances and seeing how they spend their money before giving out something like college aide? Are we going to treat somebody that took their family for a 2 week vacation to Haiti every summer to stay at a private resort differently than. somebody that took their kids on 2 week mission trip to Haiti every summer?

My parents spent their money on "helping" other people (e.g. the kids they adopted and fostered) and because of that they didn't have the money to do things for me as a young adult or even my kids (their grand kids). My kids already have a significant college savings from the my wife's parents (and realistically between what we have saved and they have, they are pretty much set for college) that my parents could not have done. I've never considered them helping other people to be a penalty to myself or my kids. I've always thought it was a good thing they've done and tried to encourage my kids to think of it that way (i.e. my parents don't love them any less because they have less money to spend on them because they are spending money on these kids that they have adopted and fostered and what my parents have done is a good thing.).

Instead of thinking about it as you are or your parents are being penalized, think about it as it is morally good and good for the country and so good for, your parents, and your kids.

(Just a general point though about helping others. I don't support college is free for everybody programs, but do think we should fund colleges so tutitions are where they were 25 years ago or so.)

SkinsHokieFan · May 30, 2017

I told my wife how Dems make sure to beat Trump in 2020. It is cynical as hell.

Just buy billboards across the midwest with huge signs that say "15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudi" Picture of Trump with King Salman. Done

tshile · May 30, 2017

your parents sound like nice people.

But if we forgive student loans (like some want), or if when you turned 18 you got significantly discounted tuition because your parents didn't save for you, meanwhile I got nothing (and my parents had to spend their own money), then yes - that is penalizing my parents. If you had told them they didn't need to save because you were going to give it away, then they would have spent it in another way.

But more general - most people who have things have made sacrifices to get there; financially, socially, etc. Far too often the attitude from the left is that these people somehow were lucky, were given things, etc - and so they owe it to the people who don't have things because they're unlucky, etc. And it's a bogus mindset.

My parents paid for my school. I was lucky. But they sacrificed for it. When my liberal friends talk about tuition forgiveness and I ask them what my parents will get they are utterly confused.

It just shows the mindset - they don't understand a sacrifice was made so I could get an education without being saddled with student loan debt (which, BTW, has been a huge benefit to me financially.)

It must be magic. 'They can afford it.' You see it through plenty of their stances, and the Democratic party plays towards it, as it's their 'base.'

That's something I would 'fix' about the Democrats. They'd earn my vote more if they changed in that way.

They may not want my vote though, and that's fine too.

Captain Wiggles · May 30, 2017

7 minutes ago, tshile said:

My parents paid for my school. I was lucky. But they sacrificed for it. When my liberal friends talk about tuition forgiveness and I ask them what my parents will get they are utterly confused.

Your parents already got. Their child gotz edumacated. Yes they made sacrificies for their child. Now could be your chance to make similar sacrificies to help others in your community. IDK perhaps you already have.

What's in it for @tshile and his parents/family? A better functioning and more prosperous society mayhaps?

I just don't view helping out my fellow human beings as punishment. Differing philosophy on life I suppose

PeterMP · May 30, 2017

1 hour ago, tshile said:

your parents sound like nice people.

But if we forgive student loans (like some want), or if when you turned 18 you got significantly discounted tuition because your parents didn't save for you, meanwhile I got nothing (and my parents had to spend their own money), then yes - that is penalizing my parents. If you had told them they didn't need to save because you were going to give it away, then they would have spent it in another way.

But more general - most people who have things have made sacrifices to get there; financially, socially, etc. Far too often the attitude from the left is that these people somehow were lucky, were given things, etc - and so they owe it to the people who don't have things because they're unlucky, etc. And it's a bogus mindset.

My parents paid for my school. I was lucky. But they sacrificed for it. When my liberal friends talk about tuition forgiveness and I ask them what my parents will get they are utterly confused.

It just shows the mindset - they don't understand a sacrifice was made so I could get an education without being saddled with student loan debt (which, BTW, has been a huge benefit to me financially.)

It must be magic. 'They can afford it.' You see it through plenty of their stances, and the Democratic party plays towards it, as it's their 'base.'

That's something I would 'fix' about the Democrats. They'd earn my vote more if they changed in that way.

They may not want my vote though, and that's fine too.

Whether my parents are nice people or not is a matter of perspective. When I was young, there was talk of me becoming a vet. I had raised a lot of animals and was good with animals. I was accepted into a good out of state far away school with a very good pre-vet program. My parents would let me live at home, but they wouldn't pay for room and board at a university and between having to pay for the room and board and out of state tuition, there was no way I could afford it on my own (even then when college was much cheaper), and they could have certainly afforded it. They just didn't think it was a good thing to do.

It didn't turn out to be a big deal because I didn't really want to be a vet. It was more one of those things that other people thought would be a good thing for me to do than something I actually wanted to do. But if I had a strong desire to be a vet, my perspective might be a little different.

My parents like(d) raising kids. That like might have come from a moral stand point, but that was their desire. Other people like going on vacations and other people live saving to help their own kids.

From there, I think you misunderestimate or misunderstand what people think:

1. You are lucky that your parents had the ability and the willingness to pay for your college. You didn't chose your parents.

2. Your parents could afford it. Your assumption is that other people aren't willing to sacrifice for something. For your parents, it was paying for college. For my parents, it was to raise more kids. Should the government go through and say that these sacrifices are "good" and these are not?

3. Yes people that are successful in most cases sacrifice some how somewhere along the way, and I think most people understand that.

Now, back to my larger point:

Do you believe or disbelieve that college debt is negatively affecting people's economic growth (e.g. people that would start good and successful businesses are not doing so because they can't take the risk due to their college debt?) That college debt is having a negative impact on the economy?

I don't honestly know the answer to that question, but there are people that believe that. However, if that is true and you believe what is good for the economy is good for all of us (which I do believe) (i.e. your parents benefit from a strong US economy), then by not doing something about the college debt situation, you are punishing your parents twice. They've sacrificed to send you to college and now without realizing it they are sacrificing again by living in a substandard economy.

You are biting your nose to spite your face (or in this context biting your parents nose to spite somebody else's face).

It makes no sense unless you have a strong belief that the current college debt situation is not having an over all negative impact on the economy.

Instead of thinking about it as you are or your parents are being penalized, think about it as it is morally good and good for the country and so good for, your parents, and your kids.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/25/business/the-ripple-effects-of-rising-student-debt.html?_r=0

https://www.forbes.com/sites/joshfreedman/2014/02/11/student-loans-are-a-big-drag-on-the-economy-and-society/

tshile · May 31, 2017

1 hour ago, PeterMP said:

Your assumption is that other people aren't willing to sacrifice for something.

Correct.

You are the result of your choices and the choices of your parents.

Obviously there are people who have more going on than that. Sickness, parents died, downright bad luck.

But my personal experience shows everyone I know who has gripes about the 'system', has made *multiple* choices in life that put them where they are and *they* are to blame for it. Not anyone else.

I'm cool with helping the kid that was born to shifty parents. I'm not cool with helping the kid who's parents decided going on vacation was more important than saving for the kids college (unless you're going to offer the same help to the kid's parents that sacrificed vacations to save for college.)

You are largely the result of your decision making. Liberals' (and therefore the Democrats) put too much emphasis on victimization, which why they don't appeal to me more than they already do. Which was the point of my post - what would make them better in my opinion.

PeterMP · May 31, 2017

37 minutes ago, tshile said:

Correct.

You are the result of your choices and the choices of your parents.

Obviously there are people who have more going on than that. Sickness, parents died, downright bad luck.

But my personal experience shows everyone I know who has gripes about the 'system', has made *multiple* choices in life that put them where they are and *they* are to blame for it. Not anyone else.

I'm cool with helping the kid that was born to shifty parents. I'm not cool with helping the kid who's parents decided going on vacation was more important than saving for the kids college (unless you're going to offer the same help to the kid's parents that sacrificed vacations to save for college.)

You are largely the result of your decision making. Liberals' (and therefore the Democrats) put too much emphasis on victimization, which why they don't appeal to me more than they already do. Which was the point of my post - what would make them better in my opinion.

1. Everybody makes mistakes. We've created a situation where the wealthy can recover from their mistakes easier than others (see Trump and his bankruptcies).

2. You are suggesting punishing people based on their parents actions. I'm not a fan of a punishing people because of the "sins" of their parents (again, how is the government going to differentiate money spent on vacations vs. money spent to adopt kids, perform charity work, etc).

3. Assuming that high student loan debt is a drag on the economy, I still don't see the benefit of forcing your parents to live in an economy that is under performing out of your sense of fairness. That still seems like biting your nose to spite your face.

Fixing the The United States Democratic Party

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The Dangerous Myth That Hillary Clinton Ignored the Working Class

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Trumping your life: How to be a better, stronger person by being more like the president

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