Captain Wiggles Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 For me its not about victimization. Its about equality and opportunity. If paying more in taxes means my fellow citizens will be able have a chance to improve their life Im 100% fine with that. Once again differing philosophies. I believe the government can and should do things to help improve peoples lives. Same goes for our community/society as a whole. Damn liberals and their hope for a utopia. See what theys done to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 15 minutes ago, clietas said: I believe the government can and should do things to help improve peoples lives. I believe that too. I just don't agree with the way the Democrats often decide how to do it. And to be fair, many times I'm not outraged or outright against their ideas, I just think there's a better solution that's not being considered. And some times, the reason it's not being considered is because of lobbying or votes; and that makes me mad, even if I don't think the idea is terrible. In the interest of saying something nice about the liberals (and that wing of the dems) - I loved the infrastructure stuff in the Sanders campaign. I loved his enthusiasm and (to me) obviously genuine desire to help our society the best way he knew how, even if I didn't agree with him I never questioned his motives (or was never given a reason to) My posts make it sound like I hate liberals, or that I think liberal is a dirty word, but that's not where I'm coming from. Or at least, no trying to. People In the upper middle class, around me, very much feel like the dems are sticking them with the responsibility while letting the upperclass skate by with loop holes. It's hard to appeal to people when you're telling them you're taking their money to pay for someone else's education, and you still have to pay for your own child's education, all because the 1% (which you're not a part of) owns too much of the wealth. That's just one example. *Especially* when saving for your child's education is a top issue with upper-middle class families - for many it's #1, or just just behind affording a mortgage on a house or retirement. And where I am, I'm considered a Democrat, a dirty traitor, for what I think about government's role in society. Not kidding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wiggles Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 @tshile can you define upper middle class? $100k+? Anyone who is considered upper middle class shouldn't be complaining about having to be "responsible". Maybe that new Lexus or BMW or Mercedes or Audi purchase can wait a few months. Sorry being up in NOVA the last week has gotten to me. Bunch o self centered rich ****s here. **** aint really changed a bit in 25 years. More luxurious activies around I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Just now, clietas said: @tshile can you define upper middle class? $100k+? Anyone who is considered upper middle class shouldn't be complaining about having to be "responsible". Maybe that new Lexus or BMW or Mercedes or Audi purchase can wait a few months. Sorry being up in NOVA the last week has gotten to me. Bunch o self centered rich ****s here. **** aint really changed a bit in 25 years. More luxurious activies around I suppose. It depends on where you live. Upper middle class here, on the border of NOVA, 170-200k household income will get you a nice house with cars that are not at risk of breaking down (or blowing up), allow you to save for retirement and your child (I can't imagine more than 2?) To go the college. Your family will be well fed, you'll have reasonable vacations. That's if you aren't saddled with debt, terrible with finances, and you have your priorities in check. You will be comfortable in life, your kids will have as good a shot at life as anyone could hope for, and you should have no complaints. Most people don't make that, they're more in the 100-150k house hold income, but they've bought a house they can barely afford, a car they have no business driving, they have some savings for college and retirement but quietly are concerned because they know they won't have enough, and the dirty little secrete is they'd have trouble dealing with an emergency that cost more than 2k. They live Iike they're upper class, but reality is they are over leveraged. That's most of the people I know in the upper middle class around here. Most will be fine because they have a good job, but they're far from having their financials in order. The stats say median household income here is 55k. We're one of the wealthiest counties in the country, thanks to defense/gov't contracting. Houses are super expensive and dinner for a family of 4 at a good, but not fancy, restaurant will run you 100 easy if you and your wife each have a beer. People are paying 400k for a ****ing townhouse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wiggles Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 I made less than $10k last year. Difficult for me to be sympathetic to anyone making $100k+ a year in NOVA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 14 minutes ago, clietas said: @tshile can you define upper middle class? $100k+? Anyone who is considered upper middle class shouldn't be complaining about having to be "responsible". Maybe that new Lexus or BMW or Mercedes or Audi purchase can wait a few months. Sorry being up in NOVA the last week has gotten to me. Bunch o self centered rich ****s here. **** aint really changed a bit in 25 years. More luxurious activies around I suppose. So where is the line? My wife and i are upper middle class for our area. I was smart how i did things though. We dont have kids so we can spend money on ourselves. We saved for years, worked hard, and did smart things to get to a place where i can buy a new car every 2 years or drop a over a grand for a new watch. I was responsible for 15+ years so now i can be irresponsible sometimes. And i shouldn't complain about that someone wanting a piece of that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 1 hour ago, clietas said: I made less than $10k last year. Difficult for me to be sympathetic to anyone making $100k+ a year in NOVA. I did too, I still pity their ignorant asses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wiggles Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Just now, TheGreatBuzz said: So where is the line? My wife and i are upper middle class for our area. I was smart how i did things though. We dont have kids so we can spend money on ourselves. We saved for years, worked hard, and did smart things to get to a place where i can buy a new car every 2 years or drop a over a grand for a new watch. I was responsible for 15+ years so now i can be irresponsible sometimes. And i shouldn't complain about that someone wanting a piece of that? Oh the horror. So you'll have to wait to buy that new rolex or that new Lexus. Like I said I have no sympathy for the rich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 7 minutes ago, clietas said: I made less than $10k last year. Difficult for me to be sympathetic to anyone making $100k+ a year in NOVA. So I read this as (and I may be interpreting it wrong) not respecting the work they have put in to get to that point and them being upset that someone wants a bigger piece of their pie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Just now, clietas said: I made less than $10k last year. Difficult for me to be sympathetic to anyone making $100k+ a year in NOVA. I know. That's why the conversation and taxes are nonsense, because no one ever takes cost of living into account. I was telling a sys-admin buddy of mine that him and his wife should move out of MD (just outside of dc) to Raleigh, NC. Where they are now, they can't find anything reasonable to live in. They have around 170-200k income combined. Location is a premium. Houses are stupid expensive if you want to live a neighborhood not riddled with crime and awful schools. They could make almost the same money in Raleigh (big tech/bank area, and badass college town to be in) and get a mansion for 300k. He spent the next 4 house spamming me with job openings and houses down there. I hope he does it, it'll be so much better for him. There's so much financial irresponsibility around here it's ridiculous. I listen to people wearing 150$ shoes, 100$ pants, driving a 3 series complain about student debt. The area is largely Democrat, Nova is what makes VA a "purple" state. I'm just outside of Nova, but all my friends are in nova. They make comments about how lucky I am. They are completely oblivious to how drastically different their financial decisions have been compared to mine. While they were blowing hundreds of dollars a weekend in their 20's I was remodeling a house that was in terrible condition. They partied their asses off, I was lame and got married. Now they're in their early 30's, making (quite a bit) more money than me, still have a mountain of student debt, credit rating is garbage, credit card debt out the ass, have almost nothing saved in the bank, little to no retirement, and can't afford a down-payment on a house.... ... telling me I'm an asshole for not supporting a student debt forgiveness policy (or other liberal idea, it's just one example) This place is special. Not like anywhere else. You hear people **** about the housing crisis and it's laughable - they lived around DC through it, they don't have a clue what the rest of the country went through not having gov't money supporting them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Just now, clietas said: Oh the horror. So you'll have to wait to buy that new rolex or that new Lexus. Like I said I have no sympathy for the rich. We arent talking about the rich. Just the upper middle class. And since this is about fixing the Left, how do you think they should frame this message to get me on board? Because the way you put it just makes me want to go polish might new Tag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wiggles Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Just now, TheGreatBuzz said: So I read this as (and I may be interpreting it wrong) not respecting the work they have put in to get to that point and them being upset that someone wants a bigger piece of their pie. **** respect. People can't feed their kids or pay their mortgage/rent with respect. Also a small increase in taxes aint really taking a big piece of pie away from anyone. Once again differing philosophical outlook IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 3 minutes ago, clietas said: Oh the horror. So you'll have to wait to buy that new rolex or that new Lexus. Like I said I have no sympathy for the rich. The ease with which you glossed over the sacrifices to be snarky is exactly what I'm talking about. His life story doesn't mean **** to you. He now has financial means to live a good life, and you think he owes you some of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Just now, clietas said: **** respect. People can't feed their kids or pay their mortgage/rent with respect. Also a small increase in taxes aint really taking a big piece of pie away from anyone. Once again differing philosophical outlook IMO. And that right there is what keeps mild comservatives from becoming Democrats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wiggles Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 3 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said: We arent talking about the rich. Just the upper middle class. And since this is about fixing the Left, how do you think they should frame this message to get me on board? Because the way you put it just makes me want to go polish might new Tag. You have $1k to spend on a watch correct? If so you aint hurting financially. I have no clue how Dems should frame their platform to appeal to you specifically. Tax break? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 3 minutes ago, clietas said: You have $1k to spend on a watch correct? If so you aint hurting financially. I have no clue how Dems should frame their platform to appeal to you specifically. Tax break? I never said i was hurting. I said i worked my tail off and made smart decisions for 15 years so i could do that. I feel like i have earned the thinhs you now say i should forgo. Edit: i have to go to bed now to get up at 0430 for work. Ill address your response in the morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wiggles Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 6 minutes ago, tshile said: The ease with which you glossed over the sacrifices to be snarky is exactly what I'm talking about. His life story doesn't mean **** to you. He now has financial means to live a good life, and you think he owes you some of it. Mayhaps I have my own story of success and self sacrafice that I glossed over as well. What does it matter? A lot if people put in hard work. Majority of which dont seem to have much to show for it. Their scraping by on far less tha $200k a year. Just now, TheGreatBuzz said: I never said i was hurting. I said i worked my tail off and made smart decisions for 15 years so i could do that. I feel like i have earned the thinhs you now say i should forgo. Thats why I keep mentioning differing philosophical outlooks. You want to enjoy your prosperity. Which is fine. I want to improve my community. Which I think is also fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 @clietas http://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0912/which-income-class-are-you.aspx Quote According to census data from 2015, 6.1% of households bring in $200,000 and higher every year and 14.1% bring in between $100,000 and $150,000. This is the upper middle class. An Urban Institute paper argued that what they referred to as upper middle class, or those with a three-person household income between to $100,000 and $350,000, has grown from 12.9% of the population in 1979 to 29.4% in 2014. It found that people with higher incomes saw their earnings grow faster than those with lower incomes. 350k a year seems a bit much for upper middle class to me, but otherwise this seems to match most of what I have seen elsewhere. One thing missing from it is net worth. Most of what I read puts upper class at somewhere around 300k+ a tear *plus* having a net worth of at least 500k. I get that this definition of upper middle class seems absurd to you, but it's pretty constant with the groups that study it. I'm not suggesting you should have pitty for the upper middle class. Just that, in a thread about what is wrong with the Democratic party, maybe consider cost of living and what it means for people making over 150k a year hear from Clinton that their kid gets no assistance while their taxes go up to pay for others. Making 150k around here is nothing. It's so expensive to live here. It's unrealistic to even stay here in retirement, you can't afford it unless you were in the 1% and even then you'd been a fool to waste your money here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wiggles Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 The fact that taxes are viewed as punishment and wealth redistribution is just completely foreign to me. @tshile I dont care if one lives in Manhattan. $150k aint nothing. The fact you think it is is quite telling IMO. Also upper middle class aint absurd to me. Not sure why you think it would be. Also I'll add that cost of living argument is kinda BS to me in regards to NOVA. Property does cost more here. Your taxes are quite low in VA compared to other states tho. Most everything else costs about the same as where I live in NC. Groceries, restaurants, vehicles, gas, ect. are all priced similiar up here in NOVA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 1 hour ago, clietas said: The fact that taxes are viewed as punishment and wealth redistribution is just completely foreign to me. You obviously are not paying enough taxes then. When I pay almost as much taxes as what I net the system sucks IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wiggles Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Just now, twa said: You obviously are not paying enough taxes then. When I pay almost as much taxes as what I net the system sucks IMO. What can I say my accountant does great work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 12 minutes ago, clietas said: The fact that taxes are viewed as punishment and wealth redistribution is just completely foreign to me. @tshile I dont care if one lives in Manhattan. $150k aint nothing. The fact you think it is is quite telling IMO. Also upper middle class aint absurd to me. Not sure why you think it would be. It comes across that way to me because you seem to not understand that it's possible to make 150k a year (as a household) and still have a real struggle saving money for your kid. That 150k number is the number Clinton used in her speeches on a tuition assistance program. That was the original context this conversation started with. If you don't understand how that can be unappealing to that group, then I don't knowe what to tell you. That might not even be who the Democrats need to target, so it might be a moot point. It might be middle class white/christians they need to target, and their issues are different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 1 hour ago, clietas said: What can I say my accountant does great work. So does mine , I live pretty well for below poverty level Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 25 minutes ago, clietas said: Your taxes are quite low in VA compared to other states tho. County taxes in nova vary. Prince William has really high taxes for what you get. Fair fax seems low compared to what you get (in my opinion) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wiggles Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Just now, tshile said: It comes across that way to me because you seem to not understand that it's possible to make 150k a year (as a household) and still have a real struggle saving money for your kid. That 150k number is the number Clinton used in her speeches on a tuition assistance program. That was the original context this conversation started with. If you don't understand how that can be unappealing to that group, then I don't knowe what to tell you. That might not even be who the Democrats need to target, so it might be a moot point. It might be middle class white/christians they need to target, and their issues are different. You're hung up on cost of living. My folks never made anywhere near $150k. They've managed to live quite the swanky life in NoVa for the past 25 years. I just don't agree with you that $150k is nothing in this area. Usually this is where I'd say sorry but Im not. 1 minute ago, tshile said: County taxes in nova vary. Prince William has really high taxes for what you get. Fair fax seems low compared to what you get (in my opinion) Yes but overall there pretty low. Can we at least agree on that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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