Welcome to the Redskins Montae Nicholson, S, Michigan State

[Est.1974]

He's a big unit and can move. Seems like we've taken a flyer on his physical measurables. Most agree the 4th was a reach but we were looking to add DBs right throw day 3 so that's the way it goes.

[Morneblade]

That game footage someone posted, I was really unimpressed. So many time he was last getting there, and would just kinda pull up and "push" a little bit. He did make a few, as in like 3 or 4 tackles that were decent, and I do realiize he was not the focus of that cut up, but there were other DB's that looked better. The only thing I can really fall back on is that I have quite a bit of respect for our DB coach.

 

And McDowell (which the fill focused on) was just distroying people through double teams. For someone that had a "questionable motor" he was the Juggernaut out there. I wish we had gotten him

[SpartanRedskin]

As a MSU alum and someone who watched every down of MN play the last few years I would like to give some insight. 

 

Out of the gate he is a player that has every physical tool you would want in a safety Size, Speed, Hands (originally thought about using him as a WR, till a couple stepped up in camp).  

 

His Freshman year was by far his best year he came into MSU with an attitude and played and hit hard.  The "softness" that many here are referencing starting happening as the he got further along in his career and actually I think is more attributed to having to play on his back foot much more often.  

 

MSU asks quite a bit of there safeties,

1) Play the run above all else

2) but also don't get beat deep because you are the last line of defense and and our corners all play press man.  This worked out great when we had 1st round corners, but when that spot got soft it made the Safeties job 1000x harder and made them basically play in no mans land.  

3) They were also asked to cover slot recievers but always shaded inside of them to guard against the run so they could routinely get beat outside.  

 

Needless to say all of this lead to Montae playing on the back foot quite a bit and when you are thinking to much you are playing slower, and a lot of times slower can equate to softer.  

 

I believe there is a very good football player inside Montae, there is also toughness, as I have seen both, he just needs to be put in positions to succeed. 

 

 

 

[Riggo'sRangers]

4 hours ago, SpartanRedskin said:

As a MSU alum and someone who watched every down of MN play the last few years I would like to give some insight. 

Out of the gate...

 

LOVE this kind of post from someone who has seen him play every game. Great insights. I feel better about this pick although, by what I read previously, I already felt this way.  You confirmed it.  Totally great with this pick now.  Thank you SpartanSkin.  Stick around & post more 'cause we have this QB....Hail

[Thinking Skins]

@SpartanRedskin, that's a great first post. Welcome. 

[DC Lumber Co.]

Initially I wasn't very high on the pick on draft weekend. But in all honesty, it was mainly because I wasn't familiar with the player at all. But I've come around on Nicholson in a big way.

 

The biggest thing that bothers me is people complaining about a pick being a "massive reach". He is only a reach based on pre-draft player rankings put together by the so-called experts that are wrong year after year. You don't have to look any further than this years first round for a perfect example of that. 

 

Bruce Irvin was a "massive reach" when Scot and the Seahawks made him a 1st round pick. The Patriots constantly have people asking "who?" after their selections in the mid/late rounds, but of course when the Patriots do it, all of a sudden draftniks change their tune and say "reports that 3 other teams were planning on drafting him right after the Patriots pick"... The Pats constantly show that their big board matters way more than Mayock's, Kiper's, McShay's, or any Fan's board...as it should. 

 

We have no idea where NFL draft rooms had Nicholson rated, which I have a feeling is higher than the public did (obviously). If the Skins correctly knew that the Titans would draft Roullier if we didnt trade up in front of them, then I think they also knew that they had to take Nicholson where they did or risk him likely not being available in the following round at their pick. It cracks me up that fans think front offices of these cash cow NFL franchises go into the draft with their only intel being tweets from Adam Schefter, Ian Rapoport and arm themselves with printed copies of Mayocks big board to guess where other teams might have a player rated. Give me a break.

 

Jay Gruden included Nicholson's name in the players they were surprised fell to their selection where they did. Also noted that he was their 2nd or 3rd ranked Safety overall. The tidbit about Torrian Gray's familiarity with him is also good to hear.

 

From what I've seen of him I think the knock of him being soft is wayyy off base. And all it takes is one scouting report (especially for the smaller names) to get regurgitated by everyone as the facts about a prospect. Just think about how many VASTLY contradictory player profiles you find on someone leading up to the draft. Scouts disagree on prospects way more than the internet does. I call it the "well we all got it wrong on that kid"-factor

 

I do agree that he looks like he plays with a bit of hesitancy at times, and saw him take a handful of bad angles. Fortunately enough, all the flaws I saw with him seem to be coachable for the most part. The biggest takeaway is that the kid sticks out like a sore thumb in the defensive backfield. He looked like a man amongst boys at MSU, and he is only 21.

 

I think the Redskins found a raw safety that has elite size, athletic ability and speed, and see him as a player with the upside to be coached into our FS of the future if he can put it all together. At first I thought he was another box-only safety which pissed me off, but I was definitely wrong. 

 

Worst case is he is a career backup and beast on special teams, but how about we even let the kid take his first snap in training camp before we label him as a bust?

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Cooley though was nice about it but in a way really slammed the pick.  After watching his film, he said he should have stayed in college for another year.  He's very raw.  He's an athlete but he questions his instincts in coverage, said he was beat over and over again by the same play in some cases.  He flat out said, special teams guy and if he plays this season he will be exposed.

[Conn]

It's worrisome to hear Gruden say he was a top-3 safety for us, period. I've come around on the pick but this was a deep and talented safety class and I just can't find room for him that high, even pretending we "know" he is what our FO obviously thinks. The class was just too good. Now I'm sure there were some character/injury/scheme issues that ommited some of the bigger names for us. But even still, I can't fathom him being ranked that high. That's strange. And there were ways to be complimentary about the pick without saying that unprovoked, so I don't see a reason to doubt Gruden on it.

 

Just makes me wonder what traits exactly we value at safety for him to grade out so high. Maybe with Gray on board we are putting more of an emphasis on measurables and physical tools, to give him some raw clay to mold? Only explanation I can think of. There were a ton of good safeties in this class but we loved this guy. Hope he grows quickly and we were all wrong about hating the pick when it went down.

[DC Lumber Co.]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Cooley though was nice about it but in a way really slammed the pick.  After watching his film, he said he should have stayed in college for another year.  He's very raw.  He's an athlete but he questions his instincts in coverage, said he was beat over and over again by the same play in some cases.  He flat out said, special teams guy and if he plays this season he will be exposed.

 

None of that I see as a terrible thing for a 4th round pick. I don't think he needs to play at all his first year. Hes super young/raw and sounds like the perfect pet project for Torrian Gray. 

 

If he did indeed stay in college for another year, its certainly possible he could have vaulted himself into a 1st round prospect considering his rare size and speed. It actually might be better we got ahold of him before he learned any more bad habits.

[Morneblade]

To be blunt, I watched 1 cut up and it was keyed on McDowell. I didn't see anything that looked very good, but it was one game, and many times it was hard to find out what he was doing, because of where the camera was focused. And he was not in it. All I can really say is I don't know near enough about him to have any kind of informed evaluation of him.

 

I'll lean on @SpartanRedskin

[DC Lumber Co.]

Quote

Michigan State often asked Nicholson to play one-on-one against wide receivers, where he at times struggled in deep coverage despite his straight line speed. 

 

However, that negative could be viewed as a bonus as he heads into the NFL, as few safeties were put out on an island like Nicholson was. Nicholson’s best plays in coverage were made when the ball was in front of him and he could use his speed to attack going downhill.

 

Interesting tidbit that backs up the inside info provided by @SpartanRedskin . Seems they asked him to do more than a Safety normally should due to their talent deficiencies at corner. I highly doubt we will ask him to lign up at corner in the NFL much.

 

Quote

Nicholson would have definitely benefited from another year at Michigan State, as his football instincts do not match his physical gifts. The only way to remedy that deficiency is through film study and time on the field.

 

With some seasoning and the right coaching, Nicholson has the speed and athletic ability to become a starting caliber safety in a two-deep scheme where the strong and free safeties are interchangeable and take over deep coverage on receivers that are passed off from corners after 15-20 yards.

 

Another promising nugget here. We definitely prefer our free and strong safeties to be interchangeable in our scheme. If we simplify his assignments to those that play to his strengths and let him focus on his natural position (a safety and not a corner)  I think its likely that his other problems will clear themselves up (tentativeness, confidence, etc). 

 

Lastly, consider how impressive the following bullet points are:

- 40-yard dash was 3rd best amongst all safeties (4.42, thats elite corner speed)

- Broad jump was 5th best (10’5”)

- Vert was tied for 6th best (35-inches)

 

Only big names that tested better than Nicholson in SPARQ were:

 

- Obi Melifonwu (2nd rd)

- Marcus Williams (2nd rd)

- Jabrill Peppers (1st rd)

- Josh Jones (2nd rd)

- Justin Evans (2nd rd)

 

Based on where the above players were drafted, it gives credibility to Grudens comments about the Redskins having Nicholson ranked as high as he claimed at safety. And other than Melifonwu, the separation in score between the listed players and Nicholson is negligible. Definitely in good company in this deep safety class.

 

All of the safeties that got more hype from the draftniks than Nicholson checked in on the SPARQ chart lower. Most much lower. I loved Justin Evans as my favorite safety, but I'm glad we drafted Nicholson over Rayshawn Jenkins, John Johnson, David Jones, Xavier Woods, Nate Gerry, Tedrick Thompson, and Dymonte Thomas. The only arguments I can really see over Nicholson are all players drafted much higher than him, where we drafted year 1 contributors at positions of much greater need.

 

Name recognition does not always = better player. Nicholson screams like the type of prospect Scot revealed as an under the radar future high-level starter before he was fired. I'm thinking Dashon Goldson in his prime, but more gifted athletically. With Swearinger as the place holder, I think we're looking at our future FS in a year or 2. Epic special teams gunner in the meantime (if he doesnt medically redshirt for us due to the labrum)

[Skinsinparadise]

11 hours ago, DC Lumber Co. said:

 

None of that I see as a terrible thing for a 4th round pick. I don't think he needs to play at all his first year. Hes super young/raw and sounds like the perfect pet project for Torrian Gray. 

 

If he did indeed stay in college for another year, its certainly possible he could have vaulted himself into a 1st round prospect considering his rare size and speed. It actually might be better we got ahold of him before he learned any more bad habits.

 

Not that Cooley's film review is the be all and end all -- but he didn't say he belongs one more year in college in a way that left me with the impression of man this guy is going to be great, he's just inexperienced, wait till he gets one more year -- he struck me lukewarm at best about the pick.  Will see.  

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000807055/article/best-and-most-questionable-2017-nfl-draft-picks-nfc-east?campaign=tw-cf-sf77270912-sf77270912

Most questionable pick: Montae Nicholson, S, Michigan State (Round 4, No. 123 overall)
The skinny: I don't get this one at all. Nicholson has the height, weight and speed to be a "traits" pick, but based on his tape, he shouldn't have come off the board earlier than the sixth or seventh round.

 

Edit:  I just listened to Cooley's film review again to see if I skewed things too much.  But I got the same feel listening to it again -- his rap is he has bad field vision and bad instincts.  He thinks he's an athletic freak and is a better tackler in open field than people give him credit for.  He suspects he ends up a special teamer.   I liked this draft but to me this was perhaps the head scratcher pick.  But I admit I haven't really watched Nicholson so I'll get to it, and digest some of the posts on the board which are quite good.

[Est.1974]

Taylor Mays comparisons anyone? Complete boom or complete bust potential.

[CTskin]

16 hours ago, DC Lumber Co. said:

Initially I wasn't very high on the pick on draft weekend. But in all honesty, it was mainly because I wasn't familiar with the player at all. But I've come around on Nicholson in a big way.

 

The biggest thing that bothers me is people complaining about a pick being a "massive reach". He is only a reach based on pre-draft player rankings put together by the so-called experts that are wrong year after year. You don't have to look any further than this years first round for a perfect example of that. 

 

Bruce Irvin was a "massive reach" when Scot and the Seahawks made him a 1st round pick. The Patriots constantly have people asking "who?" after their selections in the mid/late rounds, but of course when the Patriots do it, all of a sudden draftniks change their tune and say "reports that 3 other teams were planning on drafting him right after the Patriots pick"... The Pats constantly show that their big board matters way more than Mayock's, Kiper's, McShay's, or any Fan's board...as it should. 

 

First off, you can't compare the Patriots draft picks to the other 31 teams. They are a factory, they are a system, they make players. No other team gets the productivity out of nobodies like they do.

 

Secondly, tout it however you'd like, but when zero "analysts" and scouting reports had this kid listed no better than a 6th rounder, yet we grabbed him in the 4th, that's classified as a reach. The truth is that this kid would have been around later in the draft. Also, at the time he was picked, guys like Carlos Watkins (DT), Grover Stewart (DT), Blair Brown (ILB), Jake Butt (TE) were still on the board. All of which hit on our team needs and are potential starters this year.

 

Sure, I have some hope that Montae was a Scot find and that he'll be a diamond in the rough like Kyshoen, but that kid was all instincts with only limited physical talent. Montae is the opposite. Instincts and IQ make the FS position.

[DC Lumber Co.]

1 hour ago, CTskin said:

 

Secondly, tout it however you'd like, but when zero "analysts" and scouting reports had this kid listed no better than a 6th rounder, yet we grabbed him in the 4th, that's classified as a reach. The truth is that this kid would have been around later in the draft. Also, at the time he was picked, guys like Carlos Watkins (DT), Grover Stewart (DT), Blair Brown (ILB), Jake Butt (TE) were still on the board. All of which hit on our team needs and are potential starters this year.

 

Sure, I have some hope that Montae was a Scot find and that he'll be a diamond in the rough like Kyshoen, but that kid was all instincts with only limited physical talent. Montae is the opposite. Instincts and IQ make the FS position.

 

Actually Tony Pauline, a draft analyst was on the Al Galdi show and said he had Nicholson as a 3rd rounder, FWIW.

[CTskin]

10 minutes ago, DC Lumber Co. said:

 

Actually Tony Pauline, a draft analyst was on the Al Galdi show and said he had Nicholson as a 3rd rounder, FWIW.

Just looked at his mock, he had him in the 4th, but fair enough. He also had Fabian Moreau going in the early 2nd. Out of Fuller and Moreau, I'm really hoping that one of our 3rd rounders who "would've been 1st rounders if they weren't injured" pans out. 

[Aquariuzzz]

At least Montae Nicholson has great madden stats!

 

But seriously, Athleticism cannot be taught. If we can get him coached up(seriously, if that's that a thing?) and allow him to develop, allow chemistry to formulate, we will be making our own luck. I mean, maybe, just maybe we just happen to put him in the right set of circumstances to learn, grow and make an impact on the team. Give the kid a chance. I mean...taylor mays comparisons??  C'mon mayne!

[Riggo'sRangers]

1 hour ago, CTskin said:

Just looked at his mock, he had him in the 4th, but fair enough. He also had Fabian Moreau going in the early 2nd. Out of Fuller and Moreau, I'm really hoping that one of our 3rd rounders who "would've been 1st rounders if they weren't injured" pans out. 

 

Fabian's injury is much less severe than Fullers was.  His measurables are ridiculous.  Fabian could end up being the best pick from this class long term, and I am totally serious. I think Moreau will pan out fine.  IF Fuller does too it is a win-win. Hopefully with another year of healing Fuller will be close to what he once was.  Knee injuries are a ****....I know THAT all too well, especially Fullers injury. HTTR

[Peregrine]

The problem I have is that while it's true athleticism can't be taught, it's also true that instincts can't be taught. There are a lot of amazing athletes who are terrible football players.

 

You can teach technique. You can teach concepts. You can teach routes. But in a game of split seconds, you can't teach football instincts. It has to he there already.

[Riggo'sRangers]

3 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

The problem I have is that while it's true athleticism can't be taught, it's also true that instincts can't be taught. There are a lot of amazing athletes who are terrible football players.

 

You can teach technique. You can teach concepts. You can teach routes. But in a game of split seconds, you can't teach football instincts. It has to he there already.

Agreed.  It will be interesting to see how it all pans out,  HTTR

[Jericho]

On 5/9/2017 at 2:08 PM, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

Taylor Mays comparisons anyone? Complete boom or complete bust potential.

 

Not sure if Taylor Mays is a good comp. Mays neither boomed, nor busted. He's been lingering around the league a good 6+ seasons (and was only out of the league last year due to suspensions) doing sort of okay

[Veryoldschool]

Montae started today and knocked an Ram receiver out of the game with a hard tackle.   I thought all you draft wizards told us Montae was soft?  Anyone care to admend your remarks.

 

I don't know how this Montae is going to do with the Skins but his hit today is more evidence the draft wizards on this board don't know squat.

[William Barbour]

3 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

Montae started today and knocked an Ram receiver out of the game with a hard tackle.   I thought all you draft wizards told us Montae was soft?  Anyone care to admend your remarks.

 

I don't know how this Montae is going to do with the Skins but his hit today is more evidence the draft wizards on this board don't know squat.

 

I actually said the exact opposite. Montae played on a bum shoulder his senior year and Gray recruited him while at VT. I knew he would contribute. 

 

Hopefully he gets better at his angles and becomes a stud

[gooseneck]

53 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

Montae started today and knocked an Ram receiver out of the game with a hard tackle.   I thought all you draft wizards told us Montae was soft?  Anyone care to admend your remarks.

 

I don't know how this Montae is going to do with the Skins but his hit today is more evidence the draft wizards on this board don't know squat.

I believe Squat played division 3 football for Coe college in the 1970's

[Rocky21]

Wasn't he the guy that missed the tackle on the fake punt?

 

He also sprained the AC joint in his shoulder during the game.  Hopefully it's not too serious.  We had a LOT of dudes nicked up in the game yesterday.