Game of Thrones Season 7

[Gamebreaker]

11 hours ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

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I forgot one other thing on the Davos theory. 

 

He said in an interview that when they first started filming GRRM whispered a secret about the character to Davos that no other actor was allowed to know. Davos said he still has never told anyone what GRRM said. 

 

Its interesting since there isn't really anything noteworthy about the character that's been revealed to this point or even anything that would need to be kept from others. 

 

I bet the secret is one of Davos' missing fingers was shoved up his butt and never come back out. Hey look, it's GRRM so it's possible. 

[Gamebreaker]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

 

There was a story on EW asking the actors that play the Stark children about which child Ned would be most proud of.  Link to Article

 

 

 

I guess the comparison is just for his kids that are still alive. Robb and Rickon are missing. But I think Ned would most be proud of Arya. I think she had the worst of it. She was so young, being forced to survive in the midst of a war, serve her greatest enemy, fought for her life all over the Riverlands, and then trained to become what she needed to be to exact vengeance. And Arya really is a faceless dancer, she can take the appearance of others like Jagen does. She proved it when she killed Lord Walder Frey. 

 

Although Sansa has been through a lot, I don't give her the same credit as the rest of the family because she has been the catalyst and reason for so much of their problems. If it wasn't for Sansa's disloyalty and stupidity, her family may have never been ruined. Here is everything she did to ruin her family:

 

1) Refused to tell the truth about what happened between Arya and Joffrey. This resulted in her direwolf getting killed, and caused the first tensions between her house and the Lannisters. It also became the first time Ned and Robert were at odds. 

 

2) Upon being told she was being sent back to Winterfell, Sansa goes to Cersei tells her all of her father's plans. This admission betrays her father's trust, and all because she hoped Cersei could force Ned to let her stay near Joffrey. Which was utter stupidity, because at no point does a betrothal mean they needed to live in the same city. This tipped off Cersei that Ned was moving against her, and gave her the chance to plan a counterattack and secure Littlefinger to her cause. This results in the Lannister forces getting the City Watch, which became Ned's downfall. 

 

3) Due to the previous mistakes she made, her captivity forced Ned to admit to a crime he didn't commit in order to save her life. This allows Joffrey, the sociopath, to execute him and discredit his name all at once. 

 

4) Due to the fallout of her previous actions, and her captivity, her mother lets Jaime Lannister go free. Which causes major friction in King Robb's bannermen. The ripple effects go on that Robb ends up executing a Lord, causing that house to become an enemy. Furthermore, they wouldn't have been at war if Ned was able to expose and exile Cersei and become Regent until the King comes of age. 

 

All of her suffering is due to her own disobedience and mistakes. And yes, she was a hormonal pre-teen. But if Arya was in her position, the majority of that stuff would've never happened. 

[StillUnknown]

my god man

 

her head needs to be on a spike

[StillUnknown]

Tywin really called his son a "lecherous little stump"

 

[JamesMadisonSkins]

http://dcist.com/2017/06/game_of_thrones_pop-up_bar.php#photo-2

 

This is probably going to be a must stop and drink spot this summer ... a Game of Thrones themed popup bar in DC with Ommegang's GOT beer on tap and series-themed drinks and decor

[Destino]

1 hour ago, Gamebreaker said:

1) Refused to tell the truth about what happened between Arya and Joffrey. This resulted in her direwolf getting killed, and caused the first tensions between her house and the Lannisters. It also became the first time Ned and Robert were at odds. 

 

2) Upon being told she was being sent back to Winterfell, Sansa goes to Cersei tells her all of her father's plans. This admission betrays her father's trust, and all because she hoped Cersei could force Ned to let her stay near Joffrey. Which was utter stupidity, because at no point does a betrothal mean they needed to live in the same city. This tipped off Cersei that Ned was moving against her, and gave her the chance to plan a counterattack and secure Littlefinger to her cause. This results in the Lannister forces getting the City Watch, which became Ned's downfall.

I agree with you on Sansa, she's awful and I really hope her redemption story arc ends up cut brutally short.  I'd hate to see her fail upward all the way to a throne.  A few nits to pick. 

 

1- The unhappiness between house Lannister and Stark existed long before this moment.  The significance here was the Sansa showed her total lack of loyalty to her family and ended up paying a hefty price... which taught her nothing.  

2- Littlefinger was always going to betray Ned and everyone else.  Cersei was allowed to believe that she secured his help and that it was all her own shrewd planning.  This doesn't make Sansa's betrayal any more acceptable, especially since the cost this time was the destruction of her house. 

 

I'll add that her surprise help of Jon Snow with Littlefinger's army was actually pretty terrible.  She was there during the entire planning session and failed to inform them that they had this option.  Plan's might have been different and a lot of people might not have died had they known this.  Furthermore she told Snow's plans to Littlefinger, once again betraying the trust of her family, and lucked out that things worked out well.  She had absolutely no way of knowing that Littlefinger wouldn't simply seize the north, especially considering that she'd already seen his sinister machinations first hand.  He murdered the king, and framed her for it, before murdering her aunt in cold blood and using her as an alibi.  

 

 

 

[Elessar78]

I thought there was an underlying reason Sansa didn't tell Snow about Littlefinger's army. I can't remember what it was though.

[Gamebreaker]

34 minutes ago, Destino said:

I agree with you on Sansa, she's awful and I really hope her redemption story arc ends up cut brutally short.  I'd hate to see her fail upward all the way to a throne.  A few nits to pick. 

 

1- The unhappiness between house Lannister and Stark existed long before this moment.  The significance here was the Sansa showed her total lack of loyalty to her family and ended up paying a hefty price... which taught her nothing.  

2- Littlefinger was always going to betray Ned and everyone else.  Cersei was allowed to believe that she secured his help and that it was all her own shrewd planning.  This doesn't make Sansa's betrayal any more acceptable, especially since the cost this time was the destruction of her house. 

 

I'll add that her surprise help of Jon Snow with Littlefinger's army was actually pretty terrible.  She was there during the entire planning session and failed to inform them that they had this option.  Plan's might have been different and a lot of people might not have died had they known this.  Furthermore she told Snow's plans to Littlefinger, once again betraying the trust of her family, and lucked out that things worked out well.  She had absolutely no way of knowing that Littlefinger would simply seize the north, especially considering that she'd already seen his sinister machinations first hand.  He murdered the king, and framed her for it, before murdering her aunt in cold blood and using her as an alibi.  

 

1) You're right, you can trace Lannister and Stark animosity even further back to Ned demanding Jaime to get his ass off the Iron throne, which he sat on immediately after assassinating the Mad King. But what I meant, and probably didn't explain well, was Sansa's lie about Arya attacking Joffrey and not the other way around kinda ended all pretense of courtesy and respect between the two families. Cersei probably doubled the number of spies she had watching the Stark household as a result, and also because despite having Sansa's innocent direwolf killed, she still didn't think the punishment was enough for maiming her psycho prince. 

 

2) I don't know. I'm not sure Littlefinger always planned on betraying Ned, or just saw the better opportunity for him to survive and rise in rank and power. Keeping his word to Ned would've gained him a massive amount of respect and trust from the Starks and Baratheons, especially Catelyn. But with Cersei aware of Ned's plans, he really couldn't tell her no. She'd have him killed on the spot. At the time, he was a negotiator of money matters and a pimp, he didn't have the swords behind him to tell her no. Given the opportunity now, as Protector of the Vale, he could tell Cersei to **** off. Which is essentially what he did siding with the Starks against the Boltons. If Sansa said nothing, and Cersei remained oblivious, what would LF have gained by siding with her without knowing what her plan would be to retaliate. Bottomline, LF choose the player who had the superior plan and understood King's Landing best. Remember, it was his suggestion all along to buy the Gold Cloaks' loyalty. A pointless endeavor if he was just going to tell Cersei to offer the Gold Cloak commander a lordship anyway. 

 

I did completely forget about her purposefully omitting the Vale forces were waiting as reinforcements. Maybe she thought if the Vale appeared side by side on the battlefield with Jon's forces, Ramsay wouldn't have been so bold and stupid as to leave his strong defensive walls of Winterfell to meet this "smaller" force on the field of battle. She knew he was reckless and could be baited into making mistakes. He did do a similar stupid thing by riding out to slaughter Stannis' starving army when he could've just let them freeze and starve to death and saved the few Bolton soldiers who inevitably died in that massacre. But again, that kind of shrewd thinking is why you don't want Sansa leading the North over Jon. She let the majority of Jon's army die to ensure Ramsay died that day. 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

Yeah and I'm that kind of battle she had no way of knowing Jon wouldn't have died 5 minutes into it and there goes another family member dead. She should have told Jon and they could have still baited and surprised Ramsey much as they did just without being surrounded and nearly 5  minutes away from complete annihilation.   

 

She also got the butchers boy killed by the Hound for not telling the truth against Joffrey. 

[Gamebreaker]

2 hours ago, Elessar78 said:

I thought there was an underlying reason Sansa didn't tell Snow about Littlefinger's army. I can't remember what it was though.

 

It was probably a selfish reason. Actually, I feel like I recall her sending him away because she was angry at him for offering her up to Ramsay. Or maybe that scene took place after the battle. I'll need to rewatch it. 

[Gamebreaker]

24 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

Yeah and I'm that kind of battle she had no way of knowing Jon wouldn't have died 5 minutes into it and there goes another family member dead. She should have told Jon and they could have still baited and surprised Ramsey much as they did just without being surrounded and nearly 5  minutes away from complete annihilation.   

 

She also got the butchers boy killed by the Hound for not telling the truth against Joffrey. 

 

This isn't a show thing, but the girl she was always giggling with in the first season completely disappeared. In the books you find out what happened to her, it's probably best they left that part of the story out. Geez, anyone who gets close to her suffers for it. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

19 hours ago, Gamebreaker said:

 

This isn't a show thing, but the girl she was always giggling with in the first season completely disappeared. In the books you find out what happened to her, it's probably best they left that part of the story out. Geez, anyone who gets close to her suffers for it. 

I'm curious what happened to her.  Could you PM me?

 

Geez, lots of Sansa hate here.  It's true, she was a kindof a twit. I dunno, I really like the character arc.  She's made a lot of mistakes, lived and learned.  

 

I REALLY hope there is a reunion with Arya and Sansa.  I think that could be wonderfully awkward.  

[Yohan]

18 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I'm curious what happened to her.  Could you PM me?

 

Geez, lots of Sansa hate here.  It's true, she was a kindof a twit. I dunno, I really like the character arc.  She's made a lot of mistakes, lived and learned.  

 

I REALLY hope there is a reunion with Arya and Sansa.  I think that could be wonderfully awkward.  

 

She has lived and learned. She has learned to control information, which is why she didn't tell Jon about the Knights of the Vale, though, he might not have wanted the help knowing it would be coming from Littlefinger, (don't remember if Sansa told Jon about him.) I like her arc as well, I just hope she isn't becoming Littlefingerish.

 

In the end, I think she ends up with Tyrion, realizing he's a good feller. (or possibly the Hound.)

[mcsluggo]

i think her arc continues... and she kills little finger, and becomes him.

 

 

like a sith lord.....   Darth Sansa kills her mentor and takes his mantle for her own

[Momma There Goes That Man]

1 hour ago, Yohan said:

 

She has lived and learned. She has learned to control information, which is why she didn't tell Jon about the Knights of the Vale, though, he might not have wanted the help knowing it would be coming from Littlefinger, (don't remember if Sansa told Jon about him.) I like her arc as well, I just hope she isn't becoming Littlefingerish.

 

In the end, I think she ends up with Tyrion, realizing he's a good feller. (or possibly the Hound.)

 

I don't think she told Jon because I don't think she knew Littlefinger was coming. When she met LF at moletown she threatens to execute him on the spot and told him to leave and she never wanted to see his face again. 

 

Then in a very short time later she writes for help. It never says if he answered or just showed up or what. And really part of her had to think, what if LF just decided to wipe out Jon and Ramseys armies and take the North for himself. 

 

I'm actually kind of surprised he didn't. And his look toward Sansa when Jon is proclaimed King in the North said as much. 

 

LF has done so much in this story that is almost forgotten because he does it all in the shadows. 

 

1) He convinced the crazy breastfeeding Lysa to kill her husband Jon Arryn, the hand of the king which set the entire series into motion. He also convinced her to write Catelyn and blame the Lannister's for Jons death. 

 

2) He lied to Catelyn about the dagger being Tyrions which causes her to capture Tyrion. This caused tensions to rise in kings landing and the Ned/Jaime fight   

 

Speaking of this, I can't remember if it was confirmed that Jaime/Cersei had tried to murder Bran that night or if LF had set the entire thing in motion to further the notion that the Lannisters were behind it all, going in line with Lysa's letter to Catelyn.   

 

3) He betrayed Ned with the city watch which led to his imprisonment and execution 

 

3) He convinces Catelyn to let Jaime go, betraying Robb and ultimately leading to the Red Wedding as that decision and subsequent handling of it caused a rift in Robb's army 

 

4) He brings the alliance between the Tyrell's and Lannister/Baratheon and the betrothal between Margery and Joffrey

 

5) He works with lady Tyrell to poison the King, Joffrey and frames Sansa for it. 

 

6) He hands Sansa over to Ramsey. 

 

7) murders Lysa and seizes the Vale. He now has money, power and a massive army. 

 

8) tries to seduce Sansa to claim the north with her and tells her they can take the Iron Throne

 

...he is an agent of chaos. I'm not sure if Jon just ignores the night king and kills LF instead that things won't just be ok for everyone lol

 

i love his ladder quote in talking to Varys, just a wonderful exchange. Nice shot at Lysa too lol

 

Quote

Lord Varys: A thousand blades, taken from the hands of Aegon's fallen enemies. Forged in the fiery breath of Balerion the Dread. 

 

Petyr 'Littlefinger' Baelish: There aren't a thousand blades. There aren't even two hundred. I've counted. 

 

Lord Varys: Heh. I'm sure you have. Ugly old thing. 

 

Petyr 'Littlefinger' Baelish: It has a certain appeal. 

 

Lord Varys: The Lysa Arryn of chairs. Shame you had to settle for your second choice. 

 

Petyr 'Littlefinger' Baelish: Early days, my friend. It is flattering really, you feeling such dread at the prospect of me getting what I want. 

 

Lord Varys: Thwarting you has never been my primary ambition, I promise you. Although, who doesn't like to see their friends fail now and then. 

 

Petyr 'Littlefinger' Baelish: You're so right. For instance, when I thwarted your plan to give Sansa Stark to the Tyrells, if I'm going to be honest, I did feel an unmistakable sense of enjoyment there. But your confidant, the one who fed you information about my plans, the one you swore to protect... you didn't bring her any enjoyment, and she didn't bring me any enjoyment. She was a bad investment on my part. Luckily, I have a friend who wanted to try something new. Something daring. And he was so grateful to me for providing this fresh experience. 

 

Lord Varys: I did what I did for the good of the realm. 

 

Petyr 'Littlefinger' Baelish: The realm. Do you know what the realm is? It's the thousand blades of Aegon's enemies, a story we agree to tell each other over and over, until we forget that it's a lie. 

 

Lord Varys: But what do we have left, once we abandon the lie? Chaos? A gaping pit waiting to swallow us all. 

 

Petyr 'Littlefinger' Baelish: Chaos isn't a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some, are given a chance to climb. They refuse, they cling to the realm or the gods or love. Illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 hours ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

I don't think she told Jon because I don't think she knew Littlefinger was coming. When she met LF at moletown she threatens to execute him on the spot and told him to leave and she never wanted to see his face again. 

 

Then in a very short time later she writes for help. It never says if he answered or just showed up or what. And really part of her had to think, what if LF just decided to wipe out Jon and Ramseys armies and take the North for himself. 

 

I'm actually kind of surprised he didn't. And his look toward Sansa when Jon is proclaimed King in the North said as much. 

You know, this is the first time I thought of the possibility that Sansa didn't actually know that Baelish would show up.  All of the podcasts that I listen to didn't bring up that possibility.  They were in full "She didn't tell Jon, she kept it from him? Why? Is there a rift?  Dark Sansa!"  mode.

 

But it's possible that she had no idea if or when he would show up.

 

It's also true that maybe she should have told Jon, "So, I wrote to Baelish, why don't we wait a few days to see what his intentions are.  Does it matter if you die today or 3 days from now?"

 

3 hours ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

Speaking of this, I can't remember if it was confirmed that Jaime/Cersei had tried to murder Bran that night or if LF had set the entire thing in motion to further the notion that the Lannisters were behind it all, going in line with Lysa's letter to Catelyn.   

I always figured it was the Lannister's because Bran STILL did see what he saw.  And having him live wouldn't be good for Jamie/Cercei.  

 

That said, the Tyrion knife thing is very suspicious.  

 

3 hours ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

i love his ladder quote in talking to Varys, just a wonderful exchange. Nice shot at Lysa too lol

 

 

That scene is one of the best, understated, important scenes in the show.  

 

Baelish is the mastermind behind a lot of this chaos. 

 

That said, Danny and her dragons were mostly unaffected by any of his plotting.  Always bet on the air force.  

[Yohan]

4 hours ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

I don't think she told Jon because I don't think she knew Littlefinger was coming. When she met LF at moletown she threatens to execute him on the spot and told him to leave and she never wanted to see his face again. 

 

 

 

Right, but as Sansa and Jon are going around the North failing to get help...there was also no mention of "Hey I know this scumbag who has an army sitting at Moat Cailin. He could help our cause."

 

5 hours ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

6) He hands Sansa over to Ramsey. 

 

 

Then LF goes back to Cersei, making it seem like the Boltons betrayed the crown, and offered to attack Winterfel with the Knights of the Vale, if he is rewarded with the title Warden of the North, if he succeeds. “I will not rest until the Lion flies over Winterfel,” Littlefinger says.

[Gamebreaker]

Oh yeah, Littlefinger is the Prince of chaos in this story. A couple of points to add about the stuff that had been brought up. 

 

Littlefinger always does what the Lannisters ask him, but then also does something to hurt the Lannisters in secret. It was by request of Cersei that he convinced Lysa to poison Jon Arryn. But the letter implicating them was all him, of course. 

 

He secured the Tyrells to save the Lannisters in the Battle of the Blackwater against Stannis. But that meeting with Lady Olenna also began their plans to assassinate Joffrey. Again, he fulfills their demands but then does something else against them at the same time. 

 

We can't blame him for the attempt on Bran's life though. He really had no clue it happened until Catelyn presented him with the knife. He just had the presence of mind to keep his usual lies going and blamed another Lannister, Tyrion. It really was Joffrey all along. He was trying to please Robert, and put Bran out of his misery. I Private, Joffrey overheard Robert make an off the cuff comment that Bran was better off dead, when news of his fall reached him. Joffrey really was so dumb to provide a murder weapon that could've been traced back to him. 

 

Also, like others have mentioned, Sansa could've told Jon about the Vale forces multiple times. She may have known if LF was going to come the day of the battle, but her refusing him caused the Vale forces to not be a part of the plans from the very start. Jon, Davos and Tormund would've had a different strategy going into it. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

9 hours ago, Gamebreaker said:

Oh yeah, Littlefinger is the Prince of chaos in this story. A couple of points to add about the stuff that had been brought up. 

 

Littlefinger always does what the Lannisters ask him, but then also does something to hurt the Lannisters in secret. It was by request of Cersei that he convinced Lysa to poison Jon Arryn. But the letter implicating them was all him, of course. 

How do we know this?  Is this in the show or just the books?  I don't remember that little fact at all.. 

 

 

9 hours ago, Gamebreaker said:

 

He secured the Tyrells to save the Lannisters in the Battle of the Blackwater against Stannis. But that meeting with Lady Olenna also began their plans to assassinate Joffrey. Again, he fulfills their demands but then does something else against them at the same time. 

I do remember (vaguely) that he brought the Tyrells in to help the Lannisters against Stanis.  I don't remember when he and Lady Olenna started the plot to murder Joffrey. (If we even have ever been told.) I'm not sure the two were immediately related. 

 

 

9 hours ago, Gamebreaker said:

We can't blame him for the attempt on Bran's life though. He really had no clue it happened until Catelyn presented him with the knife. He just had the presence of mind to keep his usual lies going and blamed another Lannister, Tyrion. It really was Joffrey all along. He was trying to please Robert, and put Bran out of his misery. I Private, Joffrey overheard Robert make an off the cuff comment that Bran was better off dead, when news of his fall reached him. Joffrey really was so dumb to provide a murder weapon that could've been traced back to him. 

Thanks for the memory jog.I had forgotten about the Joffrey connection to Bran's attempted murder.  

 

I still think Sansa gets a pass for being engaged (and then married to) clearly 2 of the three worst monsters in the show.  I guess next up is the Night King.  Then she'd have the whole triad.  

 

[Riggo-toni]

8 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

How do we know this?  Is this in the show or just the books?  I don't remember that little fact at all.. 

 

 

I do remember (vaguely) that he brought the Tyrells in to help the Lannisters against Stanis.  I don't remember when he and Lady Olenna started the plot to murder Joffrey. (If we even have ever been told.) I'm not sure the two were immediately related. 

Both of these were covered in the show (I have never read the books). Lysa admitted to poisoning her husband and writing the letter blaming the Lannisters just before Littlefinger pushed her out the moondoor.

As for the plot to poison Tru....er... Joffrey, I don't think that developed until slightly later after his sadistic nature became fully manifested. There was a scene where Olenna invited Sansa for tea and asked her about Joffrey's character. Sansa confiding that he was a monster probably set the wheels in motion.

[LadySkinsFan]

Yes, I'm sure Lady Olenna was then sure that nothing would happen to her precious Margery at the hands or direction of Joffrey. Wheels set in motion. Then she thought of marrying Margery to Tommen, someone she thinks she might be able to control, which she almost accomplished, except Tommen jumped from the balcony after the Tyrells are all killed along with everyone he trusted. He didn't trust Cersei obviously.

[Voice_of_Reason]

5 hours ago, Riggo-toni said:

Both of these were covered in the show (I have never read the books). Lysa admitted to poisoning her husband and writing the letter blaming the Lannisters just before Littlefinger pushed her out the moondoor.

I remember that.  The part I don't remember is that Baelish persuaded Lysa to have her husband killed at the request of Cercie.  That's the part of the post which I quoted I don't remember being covered in the show.  But I could just not be remembering it.  

 

5 hours ago, Riggo-toni said:

As for the plot to poison Tru....er... Joffrey, I don't think that developed until slightly later after his sadistic nature became fully manifested. There was a scene where Olenna invited Sansa for tea and asked her about Joffrey's character. Sansa confiding that he was a monster probably set the wheels in motion.

That's my read as well.  

[Gamebreaker]

My assertion that Cersei was ultimately behind it all when it comes to poisoning Jon Arryn comes from comments she's made to Jaime about it needing to be handled. Also, the poison was provided by Maester Pycelle, who had been fiercely loyal to the Lannisters, not Littlefinger, at the time. 

 

I may be wrong about when LF and Olenna began planning the Joffrey assassination. Clearly, Sansa's admission that he was a monster to Olenna and Margeraey was the moment they were committed to it.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Gamebreaker said:

My assertion that Cersei was ultimately behind it all when it comes to poisoning Jon Arryn comes from comments she's made to Jaime about it needing to be handled. Also, the poison was provided by Maester Pycelle, who had been fiercely loyal to the Lannisters, not Littlefinger, at the time. 

Ok, that makes sense.  It sounds like a good assumption.  Was it ever revealed to the Lannister's or King Rob that the Stark's got the letter from Lysa?  Did Caitlin or Ed ever tell anyone? What I'm thinking is that if Cercei/Jamie put Baelish up to it, and then all of a sudden the Stark's were confronting the Lannister's about it, wouldn't it go to reason that they'd figure Baelish "told on them?"  That would be a pretty big risk for Baelish to take. Because I'm pretty sure that the Lannisters wouldn't be all that happy with Bailish.  

 

Another possibility is that Baelish just saw an opportunity to turn 2 of the most powerful houses against each other.  John Aryn apparently had figured out the truth about the parentage of Robert's kids.  It's not unreasonable to think that he told Baelish, who was master of coin and on the small counsel.  And Baelish thought that this would be an awesome way to stir up trouble.  Murder John Aryn, blame the Lannisters, get the Starks (who are aligned with the Baratheons) to bite, and all of a sudden we've got a confused mess.  

 

What's interesting is that I never thought about "why" when it was revealed by Lysa that Baelish convinced her to poison John Aryn.  I always assumed that it was just Baelish being Baelish. 

 

1 hour ago, Gamebreaker said:

I may be wrong about when LF and Olenna began planning the Joffrey assassination. Clearly, Sansa's admission that he was a monster to Olenna and Margeraey was the moment they were committed to it.  

Agreed.  That conversation between Olenna and Sansa was very important.  I do wonder who approached who, whether it was the Tyrell's who approached Baelish, or vice versa.  

[Gamebreaker]

Nope. I don't think the Lannisters or King Robert ever knew about that letter. The Starks burned it immediately after Ned and Catelyn discussed it with their maester. It was a huge risk by Baelish, which worked out because the Ned was naturally suspicious about Arryn's death. In a way, I think King Robert was suspicious as well. He was just too dumb and politically out of his depth to really do anything about it. 

 

When Robert asked Ned to be Hand, he pretty much admitted he was surrounded by untrustworthy people and he needed Ned to run his kingdom. Even without the letter, I could see Ned investigating Arryn's death and not trusting anyone off that conversation alone. 

 

Also with Olenna and LF, I think they probably approached LF instead of the other way around. He would've been taking a massive risk suggesting to murder the king and not knowing with 100% certainty that the Tyrells wouldn't sell him out to curry favor with the Lannisters.