The 2017 FA Thread - OP Updated with Signings (Sundberg, Galette, VD, Hood re-signed) *** Terrell McClain, Stacy McGee, DJ Swearinger, Terrelle Pryor, Chris Carter, Brian Quick, ZACH BROWN(!!)***

[elkabong82]

4 minutes ago, nemocystem said:

Hybridization...it's the present, & foreseeable future due to the rules changes. Get on the train, or get left behind.

 

That's another thing. Some in here are posting like we are exclusively a 3-4 defense, but Manusky has said they'll be running a hybrid with 3-4 and 4-3 looks. 

[50yrSKINSfan]

Just now, fordranger76 said:

I think the Swearinger signing was the biggest of the offseason even bigger than Pryor. He might have question marks but I think people have forgotten in the midst of the BIG NT talk is just how bad we were at safety too. FS has been the biggest sore eye on this team since I can remember. Yes bigger than NT. This move is being overlooked IMO. Sure he might not be the best to play the position but he will be miles better than anything we have thrown back there in years. That is also why I do not think the Defense will be worse. The defense was ugly bad last year all around not just on that D-line. It could be just as bad but it is no way no how worse. 

Agree and if you guys remember we were just sucked in stopping the run and the linemen we got, although not pro bowlers, are rated good against the run.

[nemocystem]

It seems to be the main reason (imo) that we are flinching when it comes to paying a NT more than what ~20% of the Defensive snaps would justify.  Logan would have made more sense because he's also an adept pass rusher, & is quick off the stack.  

 

Hankins is almost exclusicely a NT, & though he is young... $10m p/yr for roughly 20% of the D snaps?  Yoo cray-cray

[clskinsfan]

Funny. I got blasted on here for stating Mcclain is a better player than Baker. Peoples excuse was that Cooley said so. I was ALL OVER the Swearinger signing before free agency. I had him rated the best available safety after Berry re signed with KC. And guess what Cooley loves Swearinger and rated him an A signing. Cooleys take on Swearinger is he has OUTSTANSING range in zone coverage. He is a shoe string tackler according to Cooley. Which I didnt see on tape myself. My point is we all have differing views about players. To dismiss one as a bust before they play in THIS defense is idiotic IMO. 

[justice98]

14 minutes ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

A real good one is hard to get.

 

Which makes it kinda odd that you would build an entire defense around a key cog that might as well be a unicorn.  

 

But by the same token, they never really tried that hard.  A bunch of JAGs, guys past their heyday, or trying to make 4-3 DTs into 3-4 NTs.

[fordranger76]

15 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

Funny. I got blasted on here for stating Mcclain is a better player than Baker. Peoples excuse was that Cooley said so. I was ALL OVER the Swearinger signing before free agency. I had him rated the best available safety after Berry re signed with KC. And guess what Cooley loves Swearinger and rated him an A signing. Cooleys take on Swearinger is he has OUTSTANSING range in zone coverage. He is a shoe string tackler according to Cooley. Which I didnt see on tape myself. My point is we all have differing views about players. To dismiss one as a bust before they play in THIS defense is idiotic IMO. 

Exactly my thoughts. The same that dismiss the new defensive players are the same ones throwing all the eggs in the basket with Pryor who could be just as big of a bust as these defensive guys. It is all what fits ones agenda at this point instead of taking an optimistic approach. These guys could certainly surprise and I would rather hope for that than wallow in misery.

[Hail2theSkins24]

16 minutes ago, elkabong82 said:

 

That's another thing. Some in here are posting like we are exclusively a 3-4 defense, but Manusky has said they'll be running a hybrid with 3-4 and 4-3 looks. 

 

This could be another problem in itself. I'm all for a complex defense to give an offense different looks, but not at the expense of our CBs and Safeties looking at each other like "whose guy was that? That's your guy man." More than one guy on our defense spoke of Joe Barry's defense as "complicated." Let's hope Manusky does a better job of organizing and eliminating confusion among our guys. 

[CTskin]

20 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

Funny. I got blasted on here for stating Mcclain is a better player than Baker. Peoples excuse was that Cooley said so. I was ALL OVER the Swearinger signing before free agency. I had him rated the best available safety after Berry re signed with KC. And guess what Cooley loves Swearinger and rated him an A signing. Cooleys take on Swearinger is he has OUTSTANSING range in zone coverage. He is a shoe string tackler according to Cooley. Which I didnt see on tape myself. My point is we all have differing views about players. To dismiss one as a bust before they play in THIS defense is idiotic IMO. 

You should get blasted for saying McClain is better than Baker. As it's been stated countless times, every analyst and every stat says Baker's better. No offense, but your opinion is flat-out wrong if you believe otherwise. Glad you brought up Cooley because he also doesn't agree with you.

 

No one here is saying Swearinger is a bust, just that he's not a guaranteed cure to our safety woes like some seem to believe. He's rated as an average safety, so on paper it's a slight step up. I'm glad to hear Cooley loves the signing and loves what he sees in the kid, but many other analysts don't think nearly as highly of him. It's not as cut and dry as the Baker/McClain comparison. 

[clskinsfan]

12 minutes ago, fordranger76 said:

Exactly my thoughts. The same that dismiss the new defensive players are the same ones throwing all the eggs in the basket with Pryor who could be just as big of a bust as these defensive guys. It is all what fits ones agenda at this point instead of taking an optimistic approach. These guys could certainly surprise and I would rather hope for that then wallow in misery.

I like the Pryor signing simply because it protects the Doctson situation for this season. And he was relatively cheap. I am definitely excited to see how he turns out though.

[Skinsinparadise]

38 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

Funny. I got blasted on here for stating Mcclain is a better player than Baker. Peoples excuse was that Cooley said so. I was ALL OVER the Swearinger signing before free agency. I had him rated the best available safety after Berry re signed with KC. And guess what Cooley loves Swearinger and rated him an A signing. Cooleys take on Swearinger is he has OUTSTANSING range in zone coverage. He is a shoe string tackler according to Cooley. Which I didnt see on tape myself. My point is we all have differing views about players. To dismiss one as a bust before they play in THIS defense is idiotic IMO. 

 

I think Cooley is being mischaracterized as for his take on the D lineman.   He thinks Baker is slightly better than McClain.  He graded Baker a B minus and McClain a C plus.  He on the aggregate likes McClain, likes his motor, likes his energy.  He doesn't like McGee.  He thinks he's a 2 down guy without much upside.  He doesn't like what the team has done on the aggregate as for the D line (graded it a D) because in his mind they needed as he called it a D lineman who is B plus type who can win one on one matchups.   He mentioned Hankins as an example of that type of player.

 

In defense of some of the critics on the D line moves so far, Cooley from what I noticed didn't drive that opinion he just echoed it.  But Cooley didn't give the vibe that he thought there was much difference between Baker and McClain.  He seemed to be giving hints that McGee in his mind is likely a bust.  I guess will see.  I personally don't mind either signing, I would just mind it if they stop FA with just these two signings on D line.

[clskinsfan]

Just now, CTskin said:

As you should get blasted for saying McClain is better than Baker. As it's been stated countless times, every analyst and every stat says Baker's better. No offense, but your opinion is flat-out wrong if you believe otherwise. Glad you brought up Cooley because he also doesn't agree with you.

 

No one here is saying Swearinger is a bust, just that he's not a guaranteed cure to our safety woes like some seem to believe. He's rated as an average safety, so on paper it's a slight step up. I'm glad to hear Cooley loves the signing and loves what he sees in the kid, but many other analysts don't think nearly as highly of him. It's not as cut and dry as the Baker/McClain comparison. 

 

Curious how much tape you have watched of Mcclain? Because if you had you would KNOW that Mcclain is a FAR superior player against the run. At least in Dallas' system. Which it appears is what we were targeting in this off season. Again. It is idiotic to state ANY player is going to fail before they have a chance to play in OUR system. And you missed the point of my post. Which was everyone has different views of players. But NONE of them mean dick in the end. You just dont know how a players health will hold up. Or if the money causes them to be less motivated. There are so many unknown variables in both FA and the Draft. Are some better athletes than others? Yep. But at the NFL level they are ALL special human beings in that regard.

[Morneblade]

49 minutes ago, elkabong82 said:

 

Edit: for length

 

Lastly, if you and others didn't outright dismiss the very reason we brought those DL in and act like Baker is some all-pro who is worlds better, then it wouldn't be so easy to dismiss your opinions out of hand. If you and others didn't just post "Baker and RJF better, end of story" with nothing behind that, it wouldn't be so easy to dismiss. You should spend more time actually quantifying your argument instead of only harping on negatives of signings you don't like, and less time using a poor tone that your argument hasn't earned you the right to use.

 

Actually, I've gone over, repeatively WHY. It goes old after doing it several times. I also pointed out they were younger, which was the only positive I could up with.

Also, no one ever said they were great. But Baker has been a good player for us. Not great, but good.

RJF has been "meh". And, they are older, as I already pointed out.

 

But they are available. McClain and McGee are hurt. Often. Availabilty means something. How good is either D Hall as FS or Galette at OLB? We have no idea at this point, because they can't get on the field.

 

Now, you might want to downplay that, but that means something. As for the rest, thanks for taking time to say why you like the signings. That's better than just dismissing everyone, like you did originally.

 

Ok, so lets go to numbers.

Last year: RJF: 17 tackles, 14 assists, 1.5 sacks. Not good

            McGee: 14 tackles,   3 assists, 2.5 sacks. Got hurt (again) Not good

             Baker:  30 tackles, 18 assists, 4.5 sacks  Pretty decent

          McClain:  21 tackles, 18 assists, 2.5 sacks  Ok

 

You say both McGee and McClain are both better runs stoppers. With both of their best years, I don't see it. And the number don't show it either. In fact they say the opposite.

 

Now, you can make the case, I suppose that they are coming into their prime. But I would also state that they are both off injured, and that not only will they likely not be there for 16 games, and that things like knee injuries tend to catch up to big guys.

 

This on McGee about his fitness level.

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/stacy-mcgee?id=2539285

Weaknesses

Lack of production throughout career. Multiple off the field incidents; suspensions. Doesn't use his hands enough. Won't finish plays after initial surge. Has been frequently rotated in order to maximize freshness. Needs to show more power.

 

Overall I see this as a net loss.

 

I've talked about Swearinger specifically several times. He's aggressive and does not have great range. I like the pickup, but I'm also concerned with it. I think he makes the secondary a little better, but his main problem (and why he's on his 4th team now) is that he gets caught going for a big hit, and is easy to get out of position.

 

I do think he helps us.

 

But I don't see any upgrades with the DL, hence my position we have gotten worse. I also tend to think that DL is more important than secondary, which also factors in to my judgement. And then there are the injuries. You can not count on either McGee of McClain to be there for 16 games. History shows they will not be.

 

[HTTRDynasty]

Why am I now seeing this narrative that Baker was a terrible run defender?  He shouldn't be penalized just because the defense as a whole was terrible against the run.

 

I would love to see some stats to back up this claim. 

 

Here are some blurbs about Baker's "terrible run defense":

 

After the 2015 Season:

 

“In his fourth season in Washington, Baker set a career-high in every statistical category, finishing 22nd among interior defensive linemen with an 82.7 overall grade in 2015,” said Eager. “Equally solid as a run-defender (81.9) and pass-rusher (81.1), Baker helped a defense that went from dead last in the league in total grades in 2014 to one that helped Washington make the playoffs for the first time since 2012. Among 3-4 defensive ends, he was fifth in run-stop percentage (10.6) and 12th in pass-rushing productivity (9.1). His run-stop percentage was 0.1 ahead of J.J. Watt last season, while his pass-rushing productivity was higher than the more-financially-rewarded Derek Wolfe (Broncos), Cam Heyward (Steelers), Jaye Howard (Chiefs), and Corey Liuget (Chargers).”

 

 

After the 2016 Season:

 

16. Chris Baker, DI, Washington Redskins (82.2)
Baker may get pigeonholed as a run-stuffer, but he’s far more than that. He has back-to-back 40-plus pressure seasons while also stopping the run at an extremely high level. Those are fantastic numbers for a guy with the versatility to line up anywhere along the interior.

 

 

And another one after 2016...

 

7. Chris Baker, DI

Baker has been extremely impressive for Washington over the past two seasons, and has seen his playing time ramped up in response. Last year saw him on the field for a career-high 782 snaps, and also match his career high in total pressures with 42, while posting the best grade in run defense of his career. Baker is a big body that has shown the ability to play all three downs and be a factor against the run and pass over the past two years, and could be a big addition to some team’s defensive line in more ways than one.

[Morneblade]

3 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

Why am I now seeing this narrative that Baker was a terrible run defender?  He shouldn't be penalized just because the defense as a whole was terrible at run blocking.  

 

I would love to see some stats to back up this claim.  Here are some blurbs about Baker's "terrible run defense:

 

After the 2015 Season:

 

“In his fourth season in Washington, Baker set a career-high in every statistical category, finishing 22nd among interior defensive linemen with an 82.7 overall grade in 2015,” said Eager. “Equally solid as a run-defender (81.9) and pass-rusher (81.1), Baker helped a defense that went from dead last in the league in total grades in 2014 to one that helped Washington make the playoffs for the first time since 2012. Among 3-4 defensive ends, he was fifth in run-stop percentage (10.6) and 12th in pass-rushing productivity (9.1). His run-stop percentage was 0.1 ahead of J.J. Watt last season, while his pass-rushing productivity was higher than the more-financially-rewarded Derek Wolfe (Broncos), Cam Heyward (Steelers), Jaye Howard (Chiefs), and Corey Liuget (Chargers).”

 

 

After the 2016 Season:

 

16. Chris Baker, DI, Washington Redskins (82.2)
Baker may get pigeonholed as a run-stuffer, but he’s far more than that. He has back-to-back 40-plus pressure seasons while also stopping the run at an extremely high level. Those are fantastic numbers for a guy with the versatility to line up anywhere along the interior.

 

 

And another one after 2016...

 

7. Chris Baker, DI

Baker has been extremely impressive for Washington over the past two seasons, and has seen his playing time ramped up in response. Last year saw him on the field for a career-high 782 snaps, and also match his career high in total pressures with 42, while posting the best grade in run defense of his career. Baker is a big body that has shown the ability to play all three downs and be a factor against the run and pass over the past two years, and could be a big addition to some team’s defensive line in more ways than one.

 

 

No. He sucks. And so does your tone.

[Hail2theSkins24]

15 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

 

Curious how much tape you have watched of Mcclain? Because if you had you would KNOW that Mcclain is a FAR superior player against the run. At least in Dallas' system. Which it appears is what we were targeting in this off season. Again. It is idiotic to state ANY player is going to fail before they have a chance to play in OUR system. And you missed the point of my post. Which was everyone has different views of players. But NONE of them mean dick in the end. You just dont know how a players health will hold up. Or if the money causes them to be less motivated. There are so many unknown variables in both FA and the Draft. Are some better athletes than others? Yep. But at the NFL level they are ALL special human beings in that regard.

 

 People forget we had ZERO running game, especially up the middle, against Dallas on Thanksgiving. McClain, I'm sure, was a huge part in that. 

[Morneblade]

58 minutes ago, elkabong82 said:

 

That's another thing. Some in here are posting like we are exclusively a 3-4 defense, but Manusky has said they'll be running a hybrid with 3-4 and 4-3 looks. 

 

No. No one here thinks that. We've been running this hybrid for years, ever since we've switched to the 3-4. This is not new. And no one thinks it is.

It's just been terrible. Every. Single. Year.

[CTskin]

20 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

Curious how much tape you have watched of Mcclain? Because if you had you would KNOW that Mcclain is a FAR superior player against the run. At least in Dallas' system. Which it appears is what we were targeting in this off season. Again. It is idiotic to state ANY player is going to fail before they have a chance to play in OUR system. And you missed the point of my post. Which was everyone has different views of players. But NONE of them mean dick in the end. You just dont know how a players health will hold up. Or if the money causes them to be less motivated. There are so many unknown variables in both FA and the Draft. Are some better athletes than others? Yep. But at the NFL level they are ALL special human beings in that regard.

Please see GoSkins' post below about Baker's rush D stats/rankings. Thank you Go.

 

In reference to the bolded part of your post. I'd say it's much more "idiotic" to assume a player will somehow improve when going from a stellar, well-rested (because of their offensive ToP), well-coached defense to this defense full of question marks and sub-par talent. He went from a great situation to a poor situation and your belief is that he will improve? I'm just too jaded to hope for things like this. 

 

I don't mean to target you, I'm very disappointed with the FO's personnel choices. For the $15M we spent on McClain/McGee/Vernon we could have had Bennie Logan and Zach Brown. We wouldn't be debating if this defense got slightly better or worse or any of that, it would be a consensus extremeskins high five. That's the root of my frustration, money poorly spent.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

In the main here, McClain's transitioning to a base 34 LE. 

 

I don't understand how anyone thinks that upgrades on Baker (who I personally am glad is no longer here but that's neither here nor there) when he lacks Bakers size/ strength and length? 

 

Hail. 

[Est.1974]

JPP Gets 4/62mil and 40 in gtd money. Modern day NFL, you need to spend. Calling Bruce.......

[carex]

2 hours ago, Gibbs Hog Heaven said:

 

I'm going to go out on a limb lil' bro' and say it might have something to do with dumping a top flight NFL evaluator and replacing him with a clueless imbecile with more faces than a town hall clock. 

 

Hail. 

 

you mean the team drunk?  If only these hadn't uddenly become needs suddenly after he left, unlike the two years he was here.

[HTTRDynasty]

Yep, official now.

 

 

[carex]

5 minutes ago, Gibbs Hog Heaven said:

In the main here, McClain's transitioning to a base 34 LE. 

 

I don't understand how anyone thinks that upgrades on Baker (who I personally am glad is no longer here but that's neither here nor there) when he lacks Bakers size/ strength and length? 

 

Hail. 

 

maybe he doesn't take plays off

[Morneblade]

17 minutes ago, CTskin said:

Please see GoSkins' post below about Baker's rush D stats/rankings. Thank you Go.

 

In reference to the bolded part of your post. I'd say it's much more "idiotic" to assume a player will somehow improve when going from a stellar, well-rested (because of their offensive ToP), well-coached defense to this defense full of question marks and sub-par talent. He went from a great situation to a poor situation and your belief is that he will improve? I'm just too jaded to hope for things like this. 

 

I don't mean to target you, I'm very disappointed with the FO's personnel choices. For the $15M we spent on McClain/McGee/Vernon we could have had Bennie Logan and Zach Brown. We wouldn't be debating if this defense got slightly better or worse or any of that, it would be a consensus extremeskins high five. That's the root of my frustration, money poorly spent.

 

 

I think that it's even harder to expect improvement when your history looks like this:

					Games		Def Interceptions					Fumbles					Sacks & Tackles
Year	Age	Tm	Pos	No.	G	GS	Int	Yds	TD	Lng	PD	FF	Fmb	FR	Yds	TD	Sk	Tkl	Ast	Sfty	AV
2011	23	CAR	DT	97	12	12						0	0	1	0	0	1.0	13	6		4
2012	24	2TM			4	0															0
		HOU		90	3	0															0
		NWE		93	1	0															0
2013	25	HOU		97	16	0						0	0	1	0	0		8	2		1
2014	26	DAL		97	13	0						1	0	0	0	0	1.0	14	5		1
2015	27	DAL		97	2	0												2	0		0
2016	28	DAL	DT	97	15	15						2	0	0	0	0	2.5	21	18		7

[Mooka]

4 minutes ago, Gibbs Hog Heaven said:

In the main here, McClain's transitioning to a base 34 LE. 

 

I don't understand how anyone thinks that upgrades on Baker (who I personally am glad is no longer here but that's neither here nor there) when he lacks Bakers size/ strength and length? 

 

Hail. 

 

McClain is smaller, but he is lankier then Baker and has more overall athleticism. He has really long, really strong arms and hands; can tackle ball carriers while engaged with lineman by grabbing them. And he's athletic enough to make open-field tackles. 

 

All about his health and how much be plays. No one knows what his potential can be with a full season playing. (including a healthy off-season) His ceiling is much higher then Baker's is, but obviously he's worth nothing if he doesn't play. 

 

Not that high on Mcgee personally. 

 

 

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

5 minutes ago, Mooka said:

 

McClain is smaller, but he is lankier then Baker and has more overall athleticism. He has really long, really strong arms and hands; can tackle ball carriers while engaged with lineman by grabbing them. And he's athletic enough to make open-field tackles. 

 

All about his health and how much be plays. No one knows what his potential can be with a full season playing. (including a healthy off-season) His ceiling is much higher then Baker's is, but obviously he's worth nothing if he doesn't play. 

 

Not that high on Mcgee personally. 

 

 

 

 

 

He's also got shorter arms and doesn't always shed his blocks great. 

 

He fit great into the rotation  Marinelli runs but its a whole different ball game from that to here. 

 

I don't personally see him as an upgrade. But even saying he is, it's minimal. That's not the object of FA. 

 

Hail.