Is Thursday the biggest Skins-Cowboys "heavyweight" bout since Gibbs I?

[NoCalMike]

5 minutes ago, THEHEREAFTER said:

  You simply can't manufacture intangibles like heart, will, intelligence, decision making etc..      Should be a great game. 

Well hey, I can agree with all those attributes to describe Dak as of right now, but again I will go back to O-line, O-line, O-LINE!  Decision-making becomes a much easier task when you are barely even breathed on.  Finding your 3rd and 4th read is a much more comfortable task when you have pass protection for days.  I know for Cousins, one of the criticisms of him from earlier in the season seemed to be that he was passing up bigger plays that were there to be made downfield for safer routes when he seemed to have all day to throw.  

With Dak, I am not sure if it is a matter of defenses selling out coverage to stop the deeper plays, or if it is just a case of Dak taking what the defense is giving him, but either way it is working because those short passes are turning into healthy gains almost every single time.  It is also hard to make a direct comparison because Dallas's run game has been stout pretty much the entire season sanz a game or two, where as the 'Skins just discovered a running game the past few weeks, so it has changed the play action fakes from a running joke to pretty effective. 

[Bang]

1 hour ago, THEHEREAFTER said:

No one will pretend having a dominant O-line doesn't help.  I find it amazing that we couldn't buy a win with the same O-line last year.. and our QB play sucked.  The kid is playing lights out and executing very well.  I don't care if you have our O-line Walter Peyton and Jerry Rice... you still have to drive the engine.  Anyways...  I know where I am... plus he has a lot to prove still.  Expecting a dog-fight Thurs...

Well, i'm not selling short on Dak.. I know he's good and he is executing. But if i am game-planning,,  I do so to take Elliott out of the equation and make the rookie Qb prove it. 

~Bang

[TD_washingtonredskins]

17 hours ago, DC9 said:

Re-watching week 2 right now... we were poor at tackling.  Very poor.  But I wanted to point out a couple of names that can't hurt us on Thursday:

Ked Golston

David Bruton

Dashaun Phillips (hopefully)

DeAngelo Hall

I would also be surprised if we throw 8 fade patterns into the endzone this time.

Also remember we were in the red zone 6 times and kicked 3 FGs and had 2 TDs.  You have to think we've picked something up on film.

It's true that we should be a little better prepared on Thursday. At the same time, the Cowboys have a lot more confidence and have improved too. If the game plays out similar to week 2, I think we have a better shot to win. But, I think this game will feel different. 

[CBass1724]

Dallas is a really good team, but they don't scare me because we are also a really good team.  Should be a good matchup.  It's definitely not one of those games where I feel like we'd need to play perfectly and get every single break to win.  But I do hope we mollywhop them into oblivion.

[Skinsinparadise]

22 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

Well it looks like 90% of the headlines regarding the game yesterday are more about what is wrong with the Packers then anything good about the 'Skins, so I'd imagine if the 'Skins pull the upset the two stories going into the weekend will be

1) Dallas is a paper 9-2

2 ) NYG primed to take control of the NFC East

Its amazing how hard it is to get respect from the national media types.  I was watching both Fox and ESPN sports programming this week with more saying the Giants are the team to be reckoned with and pose the biggest threat to Dallas.  Imagine if the Giants were actually playing well versus squeaking by bad teams and for that matter playing what was considered at the start of the season -- statistically the 2nd easiest schedule in the NFL.

 Imagine if the Giants actually beat the Redskins this year versus the other way around?   The Redskins demolish the Packers and instead I am watching segments about how Kirk isn't a franchise QB and that the Giants coming off of an unimpressive win over the Bears are the one threat to the Cowboys.  There are some media types in our corner but most aren't.  Skip Bayless in his commentary about Kirk says he can make every throw and can be spectacular -- but nothing would make him happier than the Redskins signing Kirk to a long term contract and how that would be a boon to Dallas.

You got Stephen Smith going nuts previously about the beasts of the east comments from Baker/RJF while as far as I've noticed OBJ talking last week about the Giants in the Superbowl -- after their mighty 1 point home win over Cincy.  But apparently that is acceptable boasting and doesn't need to be called out for arrogance.   

Having said that, I think even the snarky national media would have a hard time ignoring the Redskins if they pull this one off.  The media is obsessed with the Cowboys and are trying to manufacture an antagonist to make their story fun -- with them running segments about how they'd fare versus Seattle, etc.    If the Redskins beat Dallas it would serve that purpose.  You do have right now some media types impressed with the Skins but that seems more like the hipster position -- the cool outlier one.  The mainstream position is the Cowboys are unstoppable.  The Giants are the biggest threat.   Kirk is a tease and isn't anything special   While Eli hasn't played great he is great because he's won superbowls.  

Does it matter?  Nope.   It seems like some players feed off of the negativity and if so bring it on.  I recall the same stuff last year.    The media's fascination with Eli and the Giants I find the most puzzling.  They have had the worst recent run in the division as for division titles but I gather to most they won the Superbowl yesterday and for that reason Eli has earned a lifetime of being graded with the curve pointing up.  Kirk's curve for whatever reason is pointing down.

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Teams like the Redskins and the Raiders have a long ways to go before they receive the clout and praise.  The Raiders are 8-2 and it still seems nobody is really talking about them.  It takes several years of good deeds to make up for decades of ineptitude.

[NoCalMike]

Well Stephen A. Smith while beginning to come around on Dallas, has been the one guy so far unwilling to crown them as of yet.  Despite his clowning of the 'Skins, he seems to be level-headed when it comes to Dallas, but again, when it comes to national media you have to remember they largely form opinions based on long term trends and forecasts.  Nothing really changes their opinion on things until you can't deny it any longer.  The 'Skins are on the cusp of changing people's minds, but our history probably makes the media not want to jump onto the ship just yet.

[DC9]

2 hours ago, THEHEREAFTER said:

I'm a little upset that I don't take issue with most of this...  ...  I still think Dak is being undersold a bit due to a strong supporting cast.  He's playing solid and excelled in many situations where he's been forced make plays.  It's hard to "hide" a QB for this long.  His #'s including ypa, qbr suggest he's playing the position well.  Also Mike, the coaches continuously really let Dak go instead of babysitting him in critical end of half/game situations instead of playing it safe.  A lot of the "sophisticated" stuff got us in trouble a lot at the same time with Romo.  You simply want to play to your strengths but I disagree that we've "stripped down" the offense as much as you may think.  In 2014 we largely had success because we took a ton of Romo's shoulders and let him manage the game more efficiently leaning on Murray.  You simply can't manufacture intangibles like heart, will, intelligence, decision making etc..      Should be a great game. 

 

I'm not sure anyone is saying he's being hid...

He has the best offensive line in football and the best running game in football...

Having a good running game limits your coverages that you can call.  Having a good offensive line makes it hard to do anything about the run or blitzing anyway.

He is playing well, but he's not a HOF'er is all anyone is saying.

Remember, Brandon Weeden almost beat us (and probably would've on MNF if Dez knew how to catch) two years ago against Colt McCoy... Brandon Weeden... that was the last time the Cowboys had a good RB to accompany the offensive line (DeMarco Murray).  It's the same drill here.

1 hour ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

It's true that we should be a little better prepared on Thursday. At the same time, the Cowboys have a lot more confidence and have improved too. If the game plays out similar to week 2, I think we have a better shot to win. But, I think this game will feel different. 

 

I think Zeke has played a lot better than he did in week 2.  But I think Joe Barry will surprise some on Thursday.

40 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

Well Stephen A. Smith while beginning to come around on Dallas, has been the one guy so far unwilling to crown them as of yet.  Despite his clowning of the 'Skins, he seems to be level-headed when it comes to Dallas, but again, when it comes to national media you have to remember they largely form opinions based on long term trends and forecasts.  Nothing really changes their opinion on things until you can't deny it any longer.  The 'Skins are on the cusp of changing people's minds, but our history probably makes the media not want to jump onto the ship just yet.

 

Stephen A. has a unique ability to remain ambiguous so that he can always say "See, I was right cause I said ______."

[Bang]

AND he has a probable Hall of Fame tight end.
best friend of a rookie QB  = running game and TE

 

~Bang

[SkinsGuy]

18 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Teams like the Redskins and the Raiders have a long ways to go before they receive the clout and praise.  The Raiders are 8-2 and it still seems nobody is really talking about them.  It takes several years of good deeds to make up for decades of ineptitude.

 

That simply isn't true.

The fact is, the overwhelming majority of national media types just don't like the Redskins.

Whether it is because they grew up/work in a rival's territory (New York, Philadelphia, Dallas) the idiot ultra-PC belief they have about the name, or Dan Snyder, they just don't like Washington, and no amount of winning will change that narrative.

A good example of that is Dallas. Up until this year, the Cowboys haven't been a very good team for a long time just like the Redskins, but they always get lots of love in the sports media and lots of excuses.

It's a reality Redskin fans will just have to accept.

 

[NoCalMike]

Yeah I am not sure why, besides perhaps the location of where a lot of these networks are(???) but it seems like the national sports media has a ton of Eagles/Steelers/NYG fans among their ranks, and then Dallas gets thrown into the mix because that team is always provocative in some fashion or another so you need them to be a part of the story regardless.

[bobandweave]

21 hours ago, MartinC said:

Witten cant run. At all. I'd love to know what his 40 time is now - no way he breaks 5 seconds.

He still finds ways to get open (especially against zone) but thats more a function of teams having 8 man boxes to stop the Cowboys running game. But you dont need someone with wheels covering him - just dont forget to account for him while you are worrying about stopping Elliott, Dez, Beasley and keeping Prescott in the pocket. Beasley out of the slot and Elliott on the check down are the guys I worry more about than Witten. That and Dez if you allow them to isolate him one on one.

Key is stopping Elliott (easier said than done). If you make Prescott come off his first read he struggles to find his second read and comes to Elliott or Witten as the check down. On 3rd downs Beasley is the guy you have to take away out of the slot. I just don't think we will be able to slow down their running game.

Prescott is playing really well. But like RGIII in his rookie year he is benefiting from teams having to focus on stopping the run. That leaves easy reads and lots of one on one match ups ...

 

Speaking of keys to the game

For someone who can't run that well they are sure targeting Jason Witten a lot, as in you take the last three games those Boys have played and looking at the passing targets Witten had the only game of any of them with 10 or more targets in that time frame. Witten is also the only man on that team with 3 entries in the top 6 targets per game stat over the past three weeks. I think he's a huge focal point of Dallas's offense regardless of his 40 time. Defensively the Redskins rank 10th against QBs, 25th against RBs, 11th against WRs, and 22nd against TEs - In terms of fantasy points scored. We are weak against the opposing TE.

To further drive this home in our last three games when you rank every player regardless of position and line them up by receiving yards from most to least,  three of the top six receivers against our Defense have been TE's. To expand upon that, in the past three weeks we have allowed four 100+ yard receivers against us, and two of those have been by the TE. Witten also is tied for the lead in total passing targets on the the season, and by a pretty wide margin with his 19 Red Zone targets with the next guy only at 10 leads them in that stat as well.

Defensively key to this game plan should in my opinion stopping this old man. We simply can not overlook Witten this week or else we aren't understanding what the Cowboys are doing out here.

Now I know that everyone is licking there fantasy chops at playing Zeke against us and rightfully so, we aren't very good at stopping the other teams RB but the past three week study shows that we may be improving in that area from where we were earlier in the season. In the past three games the highest amount of yards any player had against us running the football was Jeremy Hill who had 76 yards on his 20 carries. Surprising to me at least this Defense has not given up 100 yards to any RB since week four when Isaiah Crowell did that to us. In our first encounter with EZ he didn't get 100 rushing yards against us either. I'm not so certain that EZ will pull off 100 against us this week and while stopping him is vital I'm not really sure that's as productive against us as we think it is.

[Bang]

Witten doesn't need to burn anyone. He knows how to work coverages, (there's probably nothing he hasn't seen.) and he provides the perfect outlet for Dak to get into 2nd or 3rd and short. 

There still aren't many tight ends better than that old codger at finding the little gap and sitting down. Plus, he has excellent hands, and he's strong enough to box out and / or muscle a ball from a safety or even a linebacker.

~Bang

[Kindred]

The biggest Redskins-Cowboys game is always the next one coming up. 

[Mr. Sinister]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Its amazing how hard it is to get respect from the national media types.  I was watching both Fox and ESPN sports programming this week with more saying the Giants are the team to be reckoned with and pose the biggest threat to Dallas.  Imagine if the Giants were actually playing well versus squeaking by bad teams and for that matter playing what was considered at the start of the season -- statistically the 2nd easiest schedule in the NFL.

 Imagine if the Giants actually beat the Redskins this year versus the other way around?   The Redskins demolish the Packers and instead I am watching segments about how Kirk isn't a franchise QB and that the Giants coming off of an unimpressive win over the Bears are the one threat to the Cowboys.  There are some media types in our corner but most aren't.  Skip Bayless in his commentary about Kirk says he can make every throw and can be spectacular -- but nothing would make him happier than the Redskins signing Kirk to a long term contract and how that would be a boon to Dallas.

You got Stephen Smith going nuts previously about the beasts of the east comments from Baker/RJF while as far as I've noticed OBJ talking last week about the Giants in the Superbowl -- after their mighty 1 point home win over Cincy.  But apparently that is acceptable boasting and doesn't need to be called out for arrogance.   

Having said that, I think even the snarky national media would have a hard time ignoring the Redskins if they pull this one off.  The media is obsessed with the Cowboys and are trying to manufacture an antagonist to make their story fun -- with them running segments about how they'd fare versus Seattle, etc.    If the Redskins beat Dallas it would serve that purpose.  You do have right now some media types impressed with the Skins but that seems more like the hipster position -- the cool outlier one.  The mainstream position is the Cowboys are unstoppable.  The Giants are the biggest threat.   Kirk is a tease and isn't anything special   While Eli hasn't played great he is great because he's won superbowls.  

Does it matter?  Nope.   It seems like some players feed off of the negativity and if so bring it on.  I recall the same stuff last year.    The media's fascination with Eli and the Giants I find the most puzzling.  They have had the worst recent run in the division as for division titles but I gather to most they won the Superbowl yesterday and for that reason Eli has earned a lifetime of being graded with the curve pointing up.  Kirk's curve for whatever reason is pointing down.

 

I agree. If the Skins squeak by Dallas "It was a letdown and still doesn't take away from the fact that Dallas is the premier NFC team, but just briefly took their foot of the gas. If the Skins with  comfortably or smoke Dallas "Its the team we thought they'd be, coming back down to Earth and facing a tougher schedule to end the season."

While I really don't care anymore what they have to say, the narratives basically write themselves these days

[bobandweave]

1 minute ago, Mr. Sinister said:

I agree. If the Skins squeak by Dallas "It was a letdown and still doesn't take away from the fact that Dallas is the premier NFC team, but just briefly took their foot of the gas. If the Skins with  comfortably or smoke Dallas "Its the team we thought they'd be, coming back down to Earth and facing a tougher schedule to end the season."

While I really don't care anymore what they have to say, the narratives basically write themselves these days

 

Good, this sort of treatment I would imagine gets into the players skin. It probably motivated the earlier "We Run the East" after game celebration caught on tape. I'd prefer this over the sort of nonsense the Cowboys have been pulling this week leading up to this game, Breakfast club silliness

 

Champions don't celebrate before the championship is in the bag, the higher these guys get the further they will fall. Keep up the disrespect, that's what keeps ya hungry

[amm0409]

25 minutes ago, Bang said:

Witten doesn't need to burn anyone. He knows how to work coverages, (there's probably nothing he hasn't seen.) and he provides the perfect outlet for Dak to get into 2nd or 3rd and short. 

There still aren't many tight ends better than that old codger at finding the little gap and sitting down. Plus, he has excellent hands, and he's strong enough to box out and / or muscle a ball from a safety or even a linebacker.

~Bang

And if Whitner plays like Sunday night Witten will have a big night

[zoony]

21 hours ago, THEHEREAFTER said:

 

I guess you have an excuse because you haven't seen Dallas play too much I'm guessing.  Yesterday he was actually under intense pressure for the first part of the game.  The first 4 Dallas drives ended up in punts.  Then the light came on after digging out of a 1st and 30 and hitting Butler for 41 yards to set up the tying TD.  At this point, Dallas scored on every drive afterwards.  He's good.  He actually played a pretty good game at Fed Ex considering it was his second start.  Second best QBR in the league and a 9 game win streak is pretty damn good no matter how you slice it.  You don't accomplish this by "standing around ...looking around... and throwing it to the open guy".. REALLY?  Hate your rival but don't oversimplify success man.

 

No hate here he is doing a great job executing the system.  my only contention is that there are proba ly 30 or so players who could also do it.  but he is a rookie so good on him.  in the meantime, a few examples below.  if i werent lazy and i actually cared i would proved more.  you would be a straight up homer dip**** to dismiss my comments, and i dont think you are that guy

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, NoCalMike said:

Well Stephen A. Smith while beginning to come around on Dallas, has been the one guy so far unwilling to crown them as of yet.  Despite his clowning of the 'Skins, he seems to be level-headed when it comes to Dallas, but again, when it comes to national media you have to remember they largely form opinions based on long term trends and forecasts.  Nothing really changes their opinion on things until you can't deny it any longer.  The 'Skins are on the cusp of changing people's minds, but our history probably makes the media not want to jump onto the ship just yet.

 

I agree with this.  For some reason though the love for the NY Giants (granted not as deep right now as it is towards Dallas) just seems odd to me.  I recall it in 2012 during the charge to win the division -- some guys like Steve Wyche among others basically saying you have to be on drugs to think the Redskins are going to overtake the Giants to be crowned division champions.  Ultimately ironically that year the division ended up a battle between the Redskins and Dallas.   Last season, it was ditto for many national media types until they beat the Giants the 2nd time they played.  Now, the Giants have won 7 games by a touchdown or less against mediocre to poor teams.  The Giants lost to GB and Minny.  We beat those teams.  And heck we beat the NY Giants in NY.     The longest drought in the NFC East for winning the division is had by the NY Giants.  Still they pose the biggest threat to Dallas?  Maybe ultimately so but the evidence leading up to this point, no way. 

Back to Dallas.  I think the media is so hopped up on that wagon that if the Redskins beat them -- even they will be swayed.   In the scheme of things, it doesn't matter. In reality, IMO if they beat Dallas -- 90% chance they are making the playoffs.  It would be tremendous. They'd be 7-3-1.   They could likely go 2-3 and still make the playoffs at that point.   Heck if they win, I'd give them 50% or so shot of winning the division.    The momentum boost would be tremendous.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Cowboys are really good this year...I'm starting to believe (not think, believe) that the Redskins are, too. I'm calmer about this game than I expected to be lol...

 

[bobandweave]

1 minute ago, zoony said:

No hate here he is doing a great job executing the system.  my only contention is that there are proba ly 30 or so players who could also do it.  but he is a rookie so good on him.  in the meantime, a few examples below.  if i werent lazy and i actually cared i would proved more.  you would be a straight up homer dip**** to dismiss my comments, and i dont think you are that guy

 

 

I live in Fort Worth, Texas and my girlfriend is a born and raised Cowboys fan, we have an amazing relationship where I don't root against the Cowboys in front of her and she won't root against the Redskins in front of me. We are happy when both teams win, bummed when both teams lose (unless it's against each other). We watch all the games together and we talk and support one another as fans. This past weekend we were talking about this years ROTY and team MVP and she asked me, who did I think deserved the award on her team. My answer was at a minimum Dak deserved co-ownership of the award.

I've seen the Stephen A Smith take on this, where he brushed aside Dak for EZ, and I get the argument against him. But I stop there and I say if Dak wasn't so special and if anyone could be performing like he is now, then why was this team 4-12 last season? QB ability matters, and Dak has shown that to me this year. I may think he's a lucky guy in a great spot but honestly if the Cowboys offense was plug and play then it wasn't last season, and what's changed there? Not much. 

To me Dak is at least co-MVP if not the MVP. Last year the Cowboys RB was a top 5 in rushing yardage player in the league, same as this season. The difference is Dak from that to this year

[MartinC]

42 minutes ago, bobandweave said:

 

Speaking of keys to the game

For someone who can't run that well they are sure targeting Jason Witten a lot, as in you take the last three games those Boys have played and looking at the passing targets Witten had the only game of any of them with 10 or more targets in that time frame. Witten is also the only man on that team with 3 entries in the top 6 targets per game stat over the past three weeks. I think he's a huge focal point of Dallas's offense regardless of his 40 time. Defensively the Redskins rank 10th against QBs, 25th against RBs, 11th against WRs, and 22nd against TEs - In terms of fantasy points scored. We are weak against the opposing TE.

 

Oh don't misunderstand me I am not saying Witten is not still a big part of their offense - he certainly is. I would not say he is a focal point though. I have watched quite a bit of the Cowboys this year - a lot of Witten's targets come when he is the check down. He is not that often the guy who is the primary read. I do think though that Prescott has a real comfort factor with Witten because he has trouble finding his second or third reads further down field and has been coming off that first read and going straight to an easy throw to Witten or Elliott.

Beasley in the slot is getting a lot of targets as well. Both Witten and Beasley have more targets than Dez Bryant for example. Again I think thats a function of a rookie QB who still has some problems pushing the ball down the field and likes the safe throws to his TE, slot receiver and RB.

Witten cant run anymore though. He just cant. But that does not mean you don't have to cover him.

[NoCalMike]

12 minutes ago, bobandweave said:

 

To me Dak is at least co-MVP if not the MVP. Last year the Cowboys RB was a top 5 in rushing yardage player in the league, same as this season. The difference is Dak from that to this year

Dallas O-line as a collective group should be NFL MVP(s) if that was even allowed, that is.  Here is the other question, take away the O-line, or say replace them with just an above averge O-line, and who do you think performs better Dak or Zeke? I say Zeke, because of his speed and open field elusiveness, that he would be the more consistent performer behind a lesser O-line.  Watching the Cowboys games, there have been plenty of games where Dak has looked pretty mediocre for 2 and even 3 quarters, however the Dallas defense has been better than expected so far, and has kept those games close, not to mention their running game helps limit the opportunities their opponents have to get the ball in their hands. Both have performed excellent for rookies, but I think 'Zeke has been the better of the two.

2 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

Oh don't misunderstand me I am not saying Witten is not still a big part of their offense - he certainly is. I would not say he is a focal point though. I have watched quite a bit of the Cowboys this year - a lot of Witten's targets come when he is the check down. 

Beasley in the slot is getting a lot of targets as well. Both Witten and Beasley have more targets than Dez Bryant for example. Again I think thats a function of a rookie QB who still has some problems pushing the ball down the field and likes the safe throws to his TE, slot receiver and RB.

Witten cant run anymore though. He just cant. But that does not mean you don't have to cover him.

 

This is correct.  Witten is definitely an asset on the field, but his role is completely different than it used to be.  You don't see him catching those downfield seam route passes anymore.  This season it has mostly been running right about to within a yard or two of the 1st down marker, sitting, and waiting for the check down pass, and he is usually immediately tackled.  Again, nothing bad to say about what he is doing, but his role is definitely different.

[NoCalMike]

21 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

Cowboys are really good this year...I'm starting to believe (not think, believe) that the Redskins are, too. I'm calmer about this game than I expected to be lol...

 

 

I am getting there man......honest.  I am finally starting to feel like this franchise is back to a place somewhat where a loss isn't devastating, and isn't going to set off a chain of more losses like it has in the past.  Good teams lose, great teams lose.  Those teams also rebound rather quickly.  I think that tie game still has reverberated through and effected of our overall opinion because while it isn't as bad as a loss, it still looks like a blemish on our record considering how much better 7-3 would look on paper instead of 6-3-1.   

Winning on Thanksgiving would be the cherry on top to beating Green Bay on primtime. Hell it might be it's own dessert entirely, but on the flip side, where in season's past I would look at a loss as the beginning of the end, I don't feel like that is the case anymore.

[MartinC]

Just as an aside we have a street Thanksgiving dinner (its outside - in Phoenix you can pretty much count on the weather). Its our first year in this City and our first Thanksgiving in the US. 

All good until I found out 'we' are planning to eat just as the Redskins/Cowboys game kicks off!!! I am now debating which will be more painful - recording the game to watch after the dinner finishes or a divorce ...