Larry Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 One thing that would help, would have been for the Dems to develop some issues of their own. For lots of reasons. Raising the the minimum wage might be one. Me, I think that saving Social Security by raising the retirement age would be a good one, too. But out I think the Rs actually have a huge lead, in that department. They've been grooming their spin game for decades. I think Predicto was saying that the NRAs effort to push the notion that the Second granted an individual right to carry was the result of 40 years of effort at strategically placed messaging. I think we're seeing the same kind of long-term messaging becoming very important in the abortion issue. (But let's not open that hijack, in this thread). There may well be some similar long term, big picture, kind of systemic messaging on the left. But it certainly doesn't seem to have the kind of professionally-built delivery structure that the Rs have built. (And lost control of. And loosed upon the country.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Agreed again. But they need to be blunt. "this is our platform, if you aren't going to show up and vote in support of it. Then maybe you aren't as pro-choice or pro-social security or pro-fair market as you say on Twitter." Again. Go back to basics. Aim for statehouses and governors mansions. Build a new track record. What they have now isnt getting it done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Hard to write pro choice (as opposed to pro abortion) legislation. Choice is something that people have, without legislation. Maybe raising the minimum wage would be a good local issue to get behind. But raising the minimum wage in only some places, isn't the same thing. (In some ways, it's better. It's think it would be less inflationary. But in other ways it's worse. It's a lot easier for employers to locate outside the city limits than it is to leave the country.) Maybe the Dems should target issues that are more local. Maybe education or law enforcement. Lord knows, if the Dems could do things to, say, energize the BLM demographic, that sure might help them win more elections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Yep. Local is where you start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacks 'n' Stuff Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 1 hour ago, @SkinsGoldPants said: Didn't do enough to help develop a younger group for the future. Now it's showing. The GoP did a much better job of grooming young Trump. jk. That's a joke. I wouldn't actually disagree with your statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 I'm shocked. Everybody else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 The idea that the Democrats somehow did something wrong and the gop out maneuvered them is interesting, but it forgets trump isn't a conservative, was hated by the gop across the board, and beat them before he beat Clinton. I guess the GOP chest beating post election worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Gonna have trouble pushing the "Trump isn't a conservative", meme, when he won virtually every single Republican primary. He was hand picked (in the voting booth) by many of the most extreme Republicans in the country. (Republican primary voters.) (Cue "Well, but he didn't get 51% of the vote". Neither did any of the other conservatives. Does that mean they weren't conservatives, either?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Just now, Larry said: Gonna have trouble pushing the "Trump isn't a conservative", meme, when he won virtually every single Republican primary. He was hand picked (in the voting booth) by many of the most extreme Republicans in the country. (Republican primary voters.) (Cue "Well, but he didn't get 51% of the vote". Neither did any of the other conservatives. Does that mean they weren't conservatives, either?) Yeah, you've been unwilling to even consider the argument from the first time it was made here. It requires nuance and you don't seem to like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 1 minute ago, tshile said: Yeah, you've been unwilling to even consider the argument from the first time it was made here. It requires nuance and you don't seem to like that. Actually, I do think it's valid, though, that the guy almost certainly isn't really a conservative, in the sense of being loyal tp Party Before Life, or anything like that. He's certainly not a Republican Party loyalist. Not a True Believer. But a whole bunch of people who actually are the Republican Party, sure seem to think that he represents them. (Or at least, represents them better than anybody else on the menu.) Maybe they chose him as a matter of issues over Party? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacks 'n' Stuff Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Philosophically, Trump is no Republican. He's a product of the current GOP for sure. I like to believe there is a difference though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 2 minutes ago, Larry said: Maybe they chose him as a matter of issues over Party? There have been pages and pages of post mordums on the election. I haven't read one yet that cited Trump being a staunch conservative that struck a chord with a country desperately looking for a return to conservativism. I don't know what to say Larry. Simply looking at it as he won the primary is just that, simplistic. Just now, Sacks 'n' Stuff said: Philosophically, Trump is no Republican. He's a product of the current GOP for sure. I like to believe there is a difference though. The gop was having meetings to try to change rules, unbind electors, etc. As soon as the election was over every major gop got in front of a mic and tried to pretend mid-2015 to June 2016 just didn't happen. (Except for a few that actually have some dignity.) And they got what they want, trump needed help and now he has an admin full of far right people. Trump will be a pawn for the next 4 years. That's what happens when you're given power you don't have a clue what to do with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacks 'n' Stuff Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Yes, they tried to stop Trump but if they would have put a stop to a lot of the nonsense that went on over the previous 8 years that created a base who would elect a Donald Trump when they had the chance, this would never have been an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 7 minutes ago, tshile said: There have been pages and pages of post mordums on the election. I haven't read one yet that cited Trump being a staunch conservative that struck a chord with a country desperately looking for a return to conservativism. I don't know what to say Larry. Simply looking at it as he won the primary is just that, simplistic. I disagree with this in the sense that the right wing "conservatives" here definitely support Trump. I put conservatives in quotes because they won't actually define what conservatism is or what the GOP stands for at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 3 minutes ago, Hersh said: I disagree with this in the sense that the right wing "conservatives" here definitely support Trump. I put conservatives in quotes because they won't actually define what conservatism is or what the GOP stands for at this point. Well part of the problem is that any criticism of an anti-trump comment is taken as a defense of Trump quite a bit around here. I've seen you guys accuse people of defending trump when it was quite obvious they werent defending him, they were criticising an argument. Me pointing out that there should be some skepticism of the Vermont hacking incident prompted at least 3 people to try to say I think the intelligence agencies are lying about the dnc hack. People get triggered super easy these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 19 minutes ago, tshile said: The gop was having meetings to try to change rules, unbind electors, etc. As soon as the election was over every major gop got in front of a mic and tried to pretend mid-2015 to June 2016 just didn't happen. (Except for a few that actually have some dignity.) And they got what they want, trump needed help and now he has an admin full of far right people. Which demonstrates that he is not a Party Loyalist. Not that he isn't conservative. (Or that he didn't at least run as one. I'm making no claims at all that Trump actually believes any of the **** he's said. Trump cares about Trump.) Actually, I would assert that it demonstrates that the GOP decided that it was to the GOP's advantage to distance themselves from Trump. After riding his coat tails. We've seen it before. In '08. it was pretty much a standard talking point among GOP loyalists (including twa, here) that we;;, W was never a conservative, either. He was just a kinda pretend conservative who misled the entire Party into religiously following every single thing he did, for eight years. (And who every single GOP politician intended to keep doing every single thing they had done, while he was in office.) 6 minutes ago, tshile said: Well part of the problem is that any criticism of an anti-trump comment is taken as a defense of Trump quite a bit around here. Are you ever going to abandon that completely untrue talking point? I've criticized anti-Trump comments around here. And never once been accused of defending Trump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 9 minutes ago, Larry said: Are you ever going to abandon that completely untrue talking point? I've criticized anti-Trump comments around here. And never once been accused of defending Trump. Would grade is comment as about 95% true. While it doesn't happen in every instance, it happens WAY more than it should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forehead Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 I can't remember where I read this, WaPo maybe, but I'm not really worried about Trump. He'll basically be around for glorified signing ceremonies. People like Mitch McConnell are far more dangerous, smart enough to convince Trump that he himself thought of whatever they're putting in front of him. All I can do is remain hopeful...and also glad I didn't take that job at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau a few years back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 14 hours ago, @SkinsGoldPants said: It does matter. You respond to a nationwide asswhipping by not holding these current leaders responsible. I've read that it's Obama's fault. Don't agree. His job wasn't to identify young Dems and mentor them on affairs of this nation. For all the ****ed up stuff people say about the GOP. For every McConnell they have a Ryan or Rubio who will be around for decades on the Hill. There are plenty of young Dems that will be around in 4, 8, 12 years from now. First and foremost, I fully expect Cory Booker to be a major player in 2019. Not to mention Julian Castro, Kirsten Gillibrand, Kamala Harris. Just because they aren't leaders in the Senate or House, doesn't mean they can't win the party. -- Also..the House GOP are cowards. Changing the rules because too many of their members were getting caught? To borrow an overused phrase..SAD! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGoodBits Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 1 hour ago, Forehead said: I can't remember where I read this, WaPo maybe, but I'm not really worried about Trump. He'll basically be around for glorified signing ceremonies. People like Mitch McConnell are far more dangerous, smart enough to convince Trump that he himself thought of whatever they're putting in front of him. All I can do is remain hopeful...and also glad I didn't take that job at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau a few years back. Trump himself shouldn't worry you on domestic issues. He'll rubber stamp Ryan's agenda which will have tremendous negative implications to our country, but that would be the same thing we'd see with any Republican president. Trump absolutely should worry you on foreign policy. He's at best completely clueless in this area. At worst, he's somehow compromised by Russian intelligence. The latter seems like conspiracy theory nonsense but the current evidence supports it. He seems likely to let Russia have their way and push their agenda as far as Putin wants. NATO will be a toothless shell of itself as long as Trump is Commander in Chief of the US military. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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