Scott McCloughan: Honest Evaluation and Contract Renewal

[Hail2theSkins24]

Wait, 9 picks or 10 picks? Can anyone with concrete knowledge show us the picks we have round by round? 

[SkinsPassion4Life]

4 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

Let's not forget the impact Galette will have next year.  From what I read reconstructed achilles are stronger than the original, little risk of another rupture and no loss of explosion.

 

I hope you're right, but I get the feeling that Galette is another Tanard Jackson

[XxSpearheadxX]

I know people just like to be contrarian in these types of conversations. Perhaps some of you even really believe the nit picking level of judgement of SMCs personnell decisions - but I don't know how you can feel that way. You are wrong, we have a competent GM and scouting department, have they failed? Sure at times they have. Doing anything but signing him and giving him money for any and every scout he wants is insane. He is the best thing to happen to this franchise in 20 years. Let it play out.

[SkinsPassion4Life]

3 hours ago, redskins59 said:

I honestly think that Bruce Allen would have done a solid job as the GM.  The one draft in 2014 was pretty good.  Trent Murphy, Spencer Long, Morgan Moses, as well as Bashaud Breeland and Ryan Grant (these two I am not very high on, but still they are part of the roster). And this was WITHOUT a first round pick.  Who's to say he wouldn't have done a solid job in 2015 and 2016?  With or without Scot McCloughan, we were trending in the right direction.  We had a terrible season in 2014, and Bruce was feeling the heat.  So he went and got himself Scot McCloughan.  Which I am fine with.  The more scouting types we have in our organization, the better.  So hiring McCloughan was a good move.  However, he is not some sort of savior.  The team was trending in the right direction, even before McCloughan got here.  To name a few players:

Kirk Cousins

Spencer Long

Morgan Moses

Ryan Kerrigan

Trent Williams

Desean Jackson and Pierre Garcon

 

All before Scot McCloughan got here.

 

We have failed to make the defensive side stronger.  Scot McCloughan hasn't helped there.  In all fairness, the defense has been a problem since Mike Shanahan.  This has to be the worst D I have ever seen (if not, at least one of the 5 worst).  Even rookies throw for 300 yards.  He got us Josh Norman, but everybody else is just potential. This includes Su'a Cravens.  

 

This is the point I've been trying to make all along.    The notion that SM inherited a terrible roster is ridiculous

[XxSpearheadxX]

2 minutes ago, SkinsPassion4Life said:

 

This is the point I've been trying to make all along.    The notion that SM inherited a terrible roster is ridiculous

Yeah but if he had been here before he would have acquired those same players - or better - it doesn't matter. He is a pro with a great record of performance in the NFL. With burning desire to improve and succeed.

[Wildbunny]

3 minutes ago, SkinsPassion4Life said:

 

This is the point I've been trying to make all along.    The notion that SM inherited a terrible roster is ridiculous

That was a 3-13 and 4-12 roster...

 

Most of the players named weren't even starting...

Our depth chart back in 2014:

 

Nothing to rhapsodize over no?

[SkinsPassion4Life]

2 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

IIRC we used McLoughan's scouting service for our 2014 draft. He in essence drafted that class or at least his scouting laid the groundwork for who we did take.

 

I've seen numerous posts talking about this.....C'mon guys...seriously?    Did other teams use SM's scouting service?  I'm sure they did....every team is crediting SM for their drafts?   or only the good drafts?    From what I've heard and read over the years, teams use many different scouting services to see if there is a consensus on players.    

 

SM is being judged on a very low bar..people are so desperate to have a "football guy" in charge that they are grading him differently.....he's essentially being compared to douchebag Vinny....in that case; he's awesome.

[Chump Bailey]

 

 

 

14 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

Nothing to rhapsodize over no?

 

Let me get back to you...

 

[SkinsPassion4Life]

If the Kirk of 2015 and 2016 was the QB in 2013 and 2014, would we have 7 wins in 2013-14?    I think not....in fact, SM would probably not be here.

 

 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

22 minutes ago, SkinsPassion4Life said:

 

This is the point I've been trying to make all along.    The notion that SM inherited a terrible roster is ridiculous

 

I think it depends on how you define "terrible roster". You also have to determine how much bringing in a coach like Callahan played in guys like Moses and Long developing into productive players, and how much of a role Scot M played in bringing him here. Because his mark on the team isn't just what talent he brings in, but also what existing talent he recognizes as worth keeping that he feels can and should be developed. And let's remember, damn near nobody here felt Moses and Long were anything but wasted picks by the end of 2014. 

[goskins10]

5 hours ago, redskins59 said:

I honestly think that Bruce Allen would have done a solid job as the GM.  The one draft in 2014 was pretty good.  Trent Murphy, Spencer Long, Morgan Moses, as well as Bashaud Breeland and Ryan Grant (these two I am not very high on, but still they are part of the roster). And this was WITHOUT a first round pick.  Who's to say he wouldn't have done a solid job in 2015 and 2016?  With or without Scot McCloughan, we were trending in the right direction.  We had a terrible season in 2014, and Bruce was feeling the heat.  So he went and got himself Scot McCloughan.  Which I am fine with.  The more scouting types we have in our organization, the better.  So hiring McCloughan was a good move.  However, he is not some sort of savior.  The team was trending in the right direction, even before McCloughan got here.  To name a few players:

Kirk Cousins

Spencer Long

Morgan Moses

Ryan Kerrigan

Trent Williams

Desean Jackson and Pierre Garcon

 

All before Scot McCloughan got here.

 

We have failed to make the defensive side stronger.  Scot McCloughan hasn't helped there.  In all fairness, the defense has been a problem since Mike Shanahan.  This has to be the worst D I have ever seen (if not, at least one of the 5 worst).  Even rookies throw for 300 yards.  He got us Josh Norman, but everybody else is just potential. This includes Su'a Cravens.  

 

This makes the very point many here are trying to get across. Had you evaluated the 2014 draft at the end of 2014, this is what it looked like:

Trent Murphy - Even the most optimistic view was that he needed another year. At the end of last year the very large majority of people said he was a flat out bust.

Morgan Moses - Out with Lic Franc injury. Totally unknown - and of course there were those calling him a bust since he was injured.

Spencer Long - Lost in the depth chart. Did not win a starting job to start last year. He only came in after SL was injured.

Bashaud Breeland - Was considered a project at the end of 2014 - played much better in 2015. But after 2014 e was not considered a long term solution.

Ryan Grant - Showed some promise but is unlikely to be anything but a back-up.

Lake Seastrunk, Ted Bolsner, Zack Hocker (do you not remember the apoplexy of this pick??) . - These were all gone I believe before the season even started.

 

So after 3 yrs, there are 3 starters, a rotation guy and deep depth in Grant. Let's reevaluate the 2015 draft after next yr and the 2016 the year after that. Then you can have a fair comparison. 

 

But let's just assume for a moment we did have all this talent - we won 7 games in two years. And if Scot has done very little if anything to make the team better, then Jay Gruden and his staff must deserve coach of the year for doing what MS could not and winning already 17 games in two years with 1 gm left! Right? 

 

The fact is the roster was pretty bad when Scot got here. It was also most than just the talent on the roster. It was the cap hell and the poor contracts the team had. But instead of recognizing all the progress made, it's mush easier to just complain about the D.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

23 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

This makes the very point many here are trying to get across. Had you evaluated the 2014 draft at the end of 2014, this is what it looked like:

Trent Murphy - Even the most optimistic view was that he needed another year. At the end of last year the very large majority of people said he was a flat out bust.

Morgan Moses - Out with Lic Franc injury. Totally unknown - and of course there were those calling him a bust since he was injured.

Spencer Long - Lost in the depth chart. Did not win a starting job to start last year. He only came in after SL was injured.

Ryan Grant - Showed some promise but is unlikely to be anything but a back-up.

Lake Seastrunk, Ted Bolsner, Zack Hocker (do you not remember the apoplexy of this pick??) . - These were all gone I believe before the season even started.

 

So after 3 yrs, there are 2 starters, a rotation guy and deep depth in Grant. 

 

To be accurate, you forgot Breeland...Still, your points are on target.

[goskins10]

9 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

To be accurate, you forgot Breeland...Still, your points are on target.

 

He's there. I think you just missed it...  JK  Thanks for the catch. It is fixed. Was eating and typing.

[redskins59]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Scott Campbell has been here for a long time and if that draft's success is mostly on him, then its the best draft he's ever been a part of IMO.   I read it was actually up to Scot whether Campbell was even kept or not when he arrived.   Bruce probably just threw some dough at Scot to consult because he felt sorry for him, he didn't really need his advice and or they got his advice but didn't take it that seriously?   If Bruce trusts Scott Campbell so much why hire a consultant?   We should know more than most teams, when a team hires a consultant it usually connotes a problem that needs to be fixed as opposed to things are just coasting fine and everything is great.

 

If it was Campbell that nailed the 2014 draft and not Scot.    Why not just appoint Scot Campbell to be the next GM and publicly applaud his recommendations from the draft versus hiring Scot and applauding his recommendations?

 

 

 

The year that Mike Shanahan was fired, Bruce Allen was asked directly why they weren't replacing the front office.  Specifically they were talking about Scot Campbell (and the other guy who moved to Cleveland--forgot his name).  Bruce Allen in fact implied that Mike Shanahan was not following the draft board.  In other words, if Shanahan followed the draft board organized by Scot Campbell, they would have done a much better job.  In fact the year that Scot McCloughan was hired, Bruce Allen still maintained that they were doing a good job.  So it seems pretty obvious to me that the 2014 draft was pretty much Scot Campbell's draft.  Also, the fact that McCloughan did not fire him should tell you all you need to know.   It seems pretty obvious to me that he knew what he was doing.

And there is the possibility that Bruce Allen was impressed by Scot McCloughan's recommendations without actually drafting those recommended players.  If you have a scouting department who are paid hundreds of thousands of dollars, you are going to go with what they have found, not what a consultant found.  Scot McCloughan charged, what, 75,000 dollars from what I recall?  There are also other scouting services that the Redskins are signed up for.  Those are just recommendations.  Ultimately, the scouting department makes their picks. 

Saying that the 2014 draft was Scot McCloughan's seems to me like utter nonsense.  How much sense does it make that you follow a third party's recommendation who you are paying 75,000 as opposed to your scouting department that makes multifold that amount?  

Also, let me ask you all, what sort of record would we have last year without Kirk Cousins?  The record last year has a lot to do with the QB rather than McCloughan. So even with Bruce Allen, if Kirk Cousins was the starter, we would have a much better record.  So frankly speaking, Cousins is making Scot look better as well.  The team has been getting better for a while now.  Sometimes you won't be able to see it if the QB position is trash.

[Taylor703]

We're getting ready to have back to back winning seasons for the first time in twenty years and there's fans in this thread genuinely upset with the GM. Sigh 

[justice98]

2 hours ago, SkinsPassion4Life said:

SM is being judged on a very low bar..people are so desperate to have a "football guy" in charge that they are grading him differently.....he's essentially being compared to douchebag Vinny....in that case; he's awesome.

 

This is what I've been saying for a while.  He's not being judged on his own merits, he's being judged against Vinny.  

 

And I think he's done a decent job, but can call a spade a spade when I think he could be better.

[50yrSKINSfan]

Just now, Wildbunny said:

Don't really know where to start, there's lots of things to talk in this.

You didn't called Doctson a reach, but a bust, which is even worse IMO. And you just can't blame Scot for the pick because he got injured...

OK, so you're talking about this year, then you have to look back a few year to judge every team, because they weren't made last offseason. It took them some time develop guys to reach the play level they are at right now. And if you think Reese was right, then you were probably fine with the way Vinny Cerrato ruled this team when he was in charge.And to be fair, who expected us to do anything relevant this year? We were a huge question mark, and we're right where we should be right now. What others are doing is irrelevant in our case, because we have no control over it.

 

The ultimate goal is to be a perrenial contender, to be in the mix of playoffs, year in, year out. To be in the mix for a Superbowl contender, to be in the talks like the Patriots, Seahawks or Packers actually are. To be the scarecrow in the NFC East, the team that the others have to beat if they want a shot at the East Crown. That's why we hired Scot for.

If he goal was to be an up and down team, a team that have one good year for a year down, rinse and repeat, then Vinny was the perfect candidate.

Thank you bunny. It never crossed my mind that we want to be a perrenial contender.To be in the mix for a Superbowl contender. I feel reborn!

[50yrSKINSfan]

Just now, Wildbunny said:

Don't really know where to start, there's lots of things to talk in this.

You didn't called Doctson a reach, but a bust, which is even worse IMO. And you just can't blame Scot for the pick because he got injured...

OK, so you're talking about this year, then you have to look back a few year to judge every team, because they weren't made last offseason. It took them some time develop guys to reach the play level they are at right now. And if you think Reese was right, then you were probably fine with the way Vinny Cerrato ruled this team when he was in charge.And to be fair, who expected us to do anything relevant this year? We were a huge question mark, and we're right where we should be right now. What others are doing is irrelevant in our case, because we have no control over it.

 

The ultimate goal is to be a perrenial contender, to be in the mix of playoffs, year in, year out. To be in the mix for a Superbowl contender, to be in the talks like the Patriots, Seahawks or Packers actually are. To be the scarecrow in the NFC East, the team that the others have to beat if they want a shot at the East Crown. That's why we hired Scot for.

If he goal was to be an up and down team, a team that have one good year for a year down, rinse and repeat, then Vinny was the perfect candidate.

You are right, Dotson is a bust and that is worse than a reach and if I don't blame Scot who should I blame? Did you draft him? I didn't. The Giants D was not made this off season? Well they went from 32 to around 15 this year and you do not have to develop every guy if you know how to pick in FA. Do I think Reese was right? Again his D went from 32 to 15, yes I think he was right. We were the NFC east Champs and now we are not. Yes I think Reese did a good job this last 9 years, a lot better than Vinny. I expected us to repeat as NFC east champs but when I saw SM do nothing to help our D,this off season and I saw our schedule I became skeptical. I was looking forward to watch our team in the playoffs and now it does not look like they will make it so yes, I am not happy with our GM. 

[50yrSKINSfan]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The entitled to your own opinion, not the facts line really applies to your argument not mine IMO.  I am not the one mixing up the facts.  As you say you know nothing about Doctson but have defined the pick anyway and now calling him a bust.  There was no undrafted receiver on the Giants with more catches than Crowder. OK, you were confused about Cruz and Shepard.  Even if you take Shepard, he doesn't have more catches either (and is about 200 yards behind Crowder) and Shepard played this Thursday so he had that extra chance.   Don't recall any NFL pundits laughing at the Scherff pick.  NFL pundits don't characterize a draft pick who didn't play in year 1 as a bust.      

 

As for Scherff actually your own post IMO shoots down your point, ironically.  If you follow the draft a guy who is rated at #8 in a poll and is taken #5  -- that isn't considered by most draft geeks to be a discrepancy.  That's pretty normal.  McShay in his last mock had Doctson in the top 10 by the way -- we took him 22.  The draft geeks aren't always right -- if they were they'd be GMs around the league.  But even if we play with Kiper, Mayock or whomever nailing it like a bulls eye every time.  In their language #5 or #8 is basically the same thing since its in the same range -- where guys like Kiper (who loved Scot's draft including the Scherff pick) think picks are reaches are generally where you got a major difference not a tiny minor one, for example Kiper thought Bruce Irvin was a early 2nd rounder and criticized Seattle for taking him in the mid first round.  

 

Your point seems to be:  look whether this guy or that guy will be good next year isn't relevant to the bottom line.  The bottom line is they lost and you are upset.  And you are upset that in your mind the Giants and Cowboys rebuilding projects are moving faster than ours.   I follow the point.  Though some of the arguments you used to back it IMO are off.   But if you look at the moving parts going on with the team, IMO its very easy to see we aren't that far behind either team and we have a good shot to catch up or even surpass this off season.  We beat the Giants and we were a hair away from beating Dallas both times.  The defense sucks.  Our offense is very good and a mile better than the Giants offense.  I don't think its going to be incredibly hard to make this bad defense average in one off season.  The Giants just did the same thing.     

You are spinning it to try and find fault in my assesment of SM. Let me explain. I expect a guy who is drafted in the 1st round  to come in and help our team right away. If he does not come in and help then the pick was a BUST that year, IMO. It does not matter how high the guy was rated if he cannot play it is a wasted pick. You come up with a rating of 10 for Dotson and we got him with the 22. Am I supposed to be impressed even though he cannot play? WHY DIDN'T SOMEONE MOVE UP TO GET HIM IF HE WAS SUCH A STEAL? Why did he last to 22 if everyone had him as a 10? Alwost everyone wants a big receiver, why no takers at 10?He had red flags that's why and SM did not see them. And you say my points are invalid? He is not playing or helping. Case closed. I don't care if he is paying us, he was a waste this year. Now that guy may come in next year and be a all pro. I then will say great, you are not a bust, but I am talking NOW not next year. You are spinning the statement I made that I did not know anything about Dotson so how can you say he is a bust. I do not have to know where the guy grew up to say he was a bust if he does not live up to his first round draft choice value. I knew from watching the draft that he was a highly rated receiver but I felt we needed D help instead, so I was really pissed when I found out he was not playing this year. You are not going to change my mind about Reese picking better receivers than SM. Reese picked OBJ and Shep and he got Cruz off the street and from my hometown of Paterson. You are not letting go on the mixup I had about Shep comming off the street when in fact it does not matter as all 3 Giant receivers are AS GOOD OR BETTER THAN CROWDER. Yes Cruz is not having a great year but he is comming off a bad injury but his first 3 or 4 years he was very very good, just as good as Crowder. Perhaps you remember him catching a 80 yard TD to beat us in the last few minutes of a game a few years ago. All 3 of those guys are equal or better than Dotson too, but that ain't saying much. They are playing and helping now. Not next year or 4 years from now but NOW. This may change and I hope it does. Please don't hit me with Kiper. He is a ass kisser. He thinks every draftee is fine. What is he supposed to say. The Skins blew it buy passing on Williams? No,he is going to say it was a smart pick, Sherff is a great player. O.K it is normal to draft guards with the 5th pick even though they were rated 8 . Happens every year. This may come as a shock to you but there is a diff in money paid between a 5 and a 8. We took Sherff to help RG3 from getting killed and that is fine but I felt we should have gone FA for a pass blocking guard and if there were none then a 2nd rd draft pick would be OK. I remember someone had him as a 10 and that is where I THOUGHT HE SHOULD HAVE GONE. The Giants would have taken him at 9 but we would have had Williams at 5 who was rated as the best player in the draft by some NFL GEEKS so they must be right.Correct? The point I made about a guard never being a #5 pick is legit. You can spin it to say there is no difference between 5 and 8 but there is, esp when you passed on a higher rated player. I think Sherff is a good player and. a safe pick but I do not see him as the impact player Williams can become. You are right, I am a bottom line guy. I wanted a improvement this year and I fear we missed the boat. I look back and I think I see some good teams having bad years. I felt the Giants made some moves and they are about to jump on them while we need help to make the playoffs. I did not worry about the Cowboys going past us. I felt they had a better team than us .last year and esp after the draft. Just staying close to them was fine IMO but letting the Giants bolt past us is a sin. Last but not least, I think we are close as you do and that is why it hurts to sit and do nothing as pos a few players on D in FA and a couple of high draft choices could have put us over the hump but we will never know will we. Find fault with this fact. The Giants and Cowboys records are better than ours and they are playoff bound and we are asking for help and like the man said "you are what your record says you are." Merry Christmas.

[ZRagone]

9 hours ago, Wildbunny said:

That was a 3-13 and 4-12 roster...

 

Most of the players named weren't even starting...

Our depth chart back in 2014:

 

Nothing to rhapsodize over no?

 

47 of those 67 players are gone. Wow

9 hours ago, SkinsPassion4Life said:

If the Kirk of 2015 and 2016 was the QB in 2013 and 2014, would we have 7 wins in 2013-14?    I think not....in fact, SM would probably not be here.

 

 

 

Unfortunatelu, the Kirk of 2013 and 2014 was the Kirk of those years. At this point, it's like saying I'd the joe Montana of the 80s was our QB in 2013 and 2014 then SM wouldn't be here. 

[ZRagone]

6 hours ago, justice98 said:

 

This is what I've been saying for a while.  He's not being judged on his own merits, he's being judged against Vinny.  

 

And I think he's done a decent job, but can call a spade a spade when I think he could be better.

 

Thats because there are those calling for his job, or calling for a make or break year from him literally in year three, and acting like said notions occur in a vacuum. They don't. They occur within an organization ran by Dan snyder; and if we run one of the most respected scouting minds out of the building in 3 years, you're fooling yourself if you don't think a Vinny type is what's likely to be the next option. 

[elkabong82]

Honestly this thread is an oxymoron. You can't have an honest evaluation of a GM when year 2 isn't even in the books. 

 

I think goskins made the perfect example for that by bringing up the 2014 draft. Several are saying the team now has good players that Scot didn't sign/draft. Yet if you looked at a lot of these players responsible for success now, they didn't look this great after just 2 seasons: Cousins, Thompson, Murphy, heck fans were down on Desean at one point, Jordan Reed wasn't even the starter last season until Niles went down, Kerrigan didn't hit double-digit sacks until his 4th season and fans to this day aren't as high on him as they should be.

 

All we can go on right now is the record, and that speaks volumes for Scott. The man has been here two years now and there has been considerable roster turnover. His fingerprints are all over this team and if you're going to assign him blame then you must also assign him praise for the good and right now the good far outweighs the bad. He still has things to fix and is not immune from criticism, but if you think him coming here and us having back-to-back winning seasons are just coincidence then you're a damned fool. That top offense has been greatly helped by Crowder and Scherff (and it certainly has helped Moses' development having Scherff next to him). Top OL coach brought in. Scott was the one who convinced Dan on Kirk starting. You think just any person could have done that? Nope. Scott signed Robert Kelley also as well as Vernon Davis. Can't dismiss Norman signing. It has worked out great here but our own history shows no FA is a sure thing. Scot signed Nsekhe who has been very valuable to us this year. 

 

On top of that, given the successes of players elsewhere, it can be argued that Barry is squandering talent on D and development, which puts a major damper on any good D signings by Scott. 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Pointing out that SM has had a lot more misses than somee realize, or that our record the last 2 seasons are not entirely his doing as some here have clearly done, doesn't mean that we are unhappy with GMSM and are not very happy that he is running the show.

 

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

21 hours ago, justice98 said:

When there's only 7 rounds, the 4th round can't be considered "early".  Even the 3rd is debateable.

 

But we're just talking about GMSM's strategy.  Some of those picks he wasn't even here for.  

That's such a low bar that can be cleared just by not being incompetent.  I think people judge him through that prism too much.

 

Yeah but you claimed the team drafted  "predominantly offense in the early rounds of the draft".  Even if you throw out the 3rd and 4ths four straight 2nds, two being our first pick as we had no 1st rounders, does in fact represent defensive picks in the early rounds.

[SkinsPassion4Life]

8 hours ago, ZRagone said:

 

47 of those 67 players are gone. Wow

 

Unfortunatelu, the Kirk of 2013 and 2014 was the Kirk of those years. At this point, it's like saying I'd the joe Montana of the 80s was our QB in 2013 and 2014 then SM wouldn't be here. 

 

Its not the same comparison....Cousins was already on the roster....