Scott McCloughan: Honest Evaluation and Contract Renewal

[TheGreek1973]

13 hours ago, daveakl said:

except contracts don't work that way.  That was my point.  On your 5/90 with 50 guaranteed what's the signing bonus?  I'm going to assume it's the 50.  Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Year 1: 6 salary / 10 bonus

Year 2: 8s / 10 bonus

year 3:  10s / 10 bonus

year 4: 12s  / 10 bonus

year 5: 14s / 10 bonus

 

Now if you cut him after year 2 you are on the hook for 30 million in dead space.  You can always designate it as a post June 1 and stretch it over 2 years, but contracts like that are a great way to get you in cap hell.

 

What did we offer him?  What did he respond with?

 

I didn't say cut him after two years but 3.

 

First year (2016) you are paying him 20 million anyway

Second year even if average you are stuck, to you tag him again or sign him to a huge deal?   Probably tag hm so here is another 24 million for a total of 44

3rd year, he is still average, so you need to cut bait.  But who is the QB that takes over?  Anyway you cut him here and you are stuck maybe with 10 million Cap hit or you keep him an extra year while you start his replacement.

 

I simply don't see the issue in this scenario.  What we offered him was pathetic, something in the order of 24 million guaranteed for 5 years, hell he almost got this just by signing the Tag THIS YEAR.

 

Now you are stuck by giving him probably 65 to 70 guaranteed, probably 130m for 5 years.  And if he wins Sunday, puts up 5000 yards for the season and maybe we will a playoff game?  I can see the above being a "small" figure.

 

 

 

 

[Est.1974]

23 hours ago, daveakl said:

Explain how a 50 million guaranteed contract with an out at three years would work.

As an aside, that is exactly the type of deal Josh Norman got. 5yr/75mil, 50gtd, if he's cut after 3 years the dead cap is 'only' 6mil. Still a big number but not crippling in the context of the contract size.

 

Pretty sure Kirk would get a contract structured in the same manner if Scott decides to pulls the trigger on him......my guess would be a 4 year deal though.

[Peregrine]

Hes not getting 5 years 130 mill.  The biggest contract in the entire NFL right now is Andrew Luck, who JUST got 6 years 138 mill this past season.  Thats 23 mill a year, a far cry from 26 mill per.

[daveakl]

2 hours ago, TheGreek1973 said:

I didn't say cut him after two years but 3.

Sorry, you are 100% right.

 

The Josh Norman contract provides a good template for that.

 

5/75 with 50 guaranteed. 

Year 1: 8

Year 2: 20

Year 3: 17

Year 4: 14.5

Total 59.5 million

 

Let's say you sign him to that last year and he craps the bed.

 

You can't cut him after year 1. And you can't cut him after year 2. You're now stuck with a crap QB taking a huge chunk of your cap. (Hello Houston)

 

------------------

 

What we did: (using Lucks contract 5/123 83 guaranteed)

Year 1: 20 

Year 2: 18.4

Year 3: 19.4

Year 4: 24.4

Total: 82.2 million

 

So you basically are trading 23 million in cap space over 4 years (5.7 per year) to be certain Cousins is the man. And that's going off the idea that he would have signed a Norman type deal (which I bet would have needed to be a little higher) and now can get Lucks deal (which he may be able to get now).

1 hour ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

As an aside, that is exactly the type of deal Josh Norman got. 5yr/75mil, 50gtd, if he's cut after 3 years the dead cap is 'only' 6mil. Still a big number but not crippling in the context of the contract size.

One difference imo is if the QB sucks year 1 with this contract you are screwed. If the CB sucks you can move him to CB2 or slot corner. You have a little flexibility. 

 

If it's the QB it's way worse. (Although you could make him the punt protector like AA lol)

[elkabong82]

22 hours ago, The Consigliere said:

 

1. No it isn't. I've always said, and I'm a firm believer in best available football player,

 

2. I don't agree. I believe Scott had Scherrf as high as he did because of intangibles and not talent.

 

3. Yes and Leonard Williams is already an absolute monster DT,

 

4. So why not sign the stud guard who is so much cheaper and a known quantity, and roll the dice with a DT on a cheap as hell contract, and then decide down the line whether to resign him?

 

5. Higher, definitely higher. But Williams was the #1 rated player in the draft before the injury rumors started, and he's lived up to that status as well.

 

6. The '15 and '16 FA classes at Guard were actually quite good. Why get a journeyman for the position when you could have signed a known proven and known quantity? 

 

1. BPA is best route, position shouldn't matter greatly. You are looking at positional value which is fair, yet you seem to act like it is flawless when it is not because it advocates for certain positions over others which means the possibility of neglecting a good player is there and that is a flaw. I really don't care where positions are most often draft, I care about who is the best player for the team. The Patriots routinely have drafted players that experts had mocked lower because they stick to BPA. Your argument is saying we should not have drafted Scherff who has performed excellently and is already a Pro Bowler. That's ridiculous. 

 

2. Intangibles, ethics, attitude, etc. are part of player evaluations and obviously do factor in to BPA decisions. Plus, Scherff was rated highly also because of talent, which we see every game now.

 

3. and the Jets D still stinks

 

4. Because there has to be a FA guard worth taking, and 3 to the cost of 1 is better and even more reason to stick to BPA.

 

5-6. Is he? Because right now Scherff is the better pick on the better unit, as I pointed out on those D stats you neglected to address. Jets D overall is bad and their DL is 31st in sacks Skins OL is top 5 and among them Scherff made Pro Bowl in just year 2. 

 

Why draft a DT just because of future contract numbers and ignore an OL you have rated higher? You don't. You don't draft a player you have ranked lower. In the end we have a young Pro Bowl OG and the OL is a major strength and his contract will be considerably less than Williams in the future should he do well overall under the rookie contract. That's a win. 

 

Had we gone with Williams I can easily envision a scenario where our D still stinks under Barry, but now the OL is also just above average and the offense is limited, we've won fewer games, and people are on here complaining that Williams hasn't done much and we should have gone Scherff to strengthen the OL, because look what Dallas is doing. 

[50yrSKINSfan]

Just now, bradboyd80 said:

So SM is supposed to draft who YOU want? And if he doesn't, he's an idiot GM (not being literal, but that's essentially the vibe you're putting out). Are you a scout? Do you spend hours upon hours, day after day scouting the draft class? If not, you have no right to sit here and claim you know who the best prospect from the first round would have been. Just because a bunch of bloggers and mocks have us taking a certain player doesn't mean Scot feels the same they do. Not to mention, he has a lot more information than they (or us) do. /rant

Since time began fans complained about their teams. I bet there were Romans complaining about some gladiator teams in the coliseum 2000 years ago. It is our right and duty. Now I never said SM was a idiot, in fact I said he is doing a good job. Maybe you should recheck your vibe input machine. I just was not happy with some of his draft choices. Now if you take the time to read, the original poster was asking us to assess SM and I did. You are right about one thing, I am not a draft expert but neither are you. Last time I checked we were living the the USA and I HAVE A RIGHT TO SAY WHAT IS ON MY MIND. Another thing, we as educated fans, for way over 50 years do not need boggers and mocks to see our beloved Washington Redskins team sucks on defense and we would appreciate it if SM would address it! So if I don't not like his draft choices I am supposed to say "it is fine Scot, Brad does not want me complaining. He says I have no right."

[Wildbunny]

In 5 years we'll still debate the Scherff / Williams pick...

 

There must be an internet meme regarding it... Pretty sure...

 

7 hours ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

I HAVE A RIGHT TO SAY WHAT IS ON MY MIND

You also have the right to be wrong.

[bobandweave]

We have leverage over Cousins I prefer to sign him but if he becomes a jerk and won't stay we will trade him. No player likes to play one year contracts, nothing stopping us from tagging and trading if he insists.

 

We made the right choice in not signing him last year not all players play as well when they get paid. He passed that test too. He's answered most all the questions about him and worth a fair deal

 

As for the Williams debate there is a strong sence of what wins in the NFL today and that's passing offenses. We need to control the line of scrimmage to have a stable passing game can't do that with a QB on his back. They were two good picks who happened to go back to back we went with what we needed to get that attack going 

[goskins10]

On ‎12‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 6:00 PM, The Consigliere said:

 

1. No it isn't. I've always said, and I'm a firm believer in best available football player, and in never going after need first, although that's changed a bit since GM's and coaches are now so often prioritizing their career over the good of the franchise now because most owners today are far less patient than they were

 

Edit

 

added the exceptions which were: TE, FB, S, interior OL, and MLB. In recent years I added RB because of the career arc issue, and the incredibly cheap cost

6. The '15 and '16 FA classes at Guard were actually quite good. Why get a journeyman for the position when you could have signed a known proven and known quantity? 

 

1&2 - It really does not matter why Scot had Scherff rated so high. But he clearly had him ranked ahead of LW - as did many others. LW was a draft junkie favorite - not necessarily GMs and actually scouting. We have no idea where he was on the GMs actual boards. There is a ton of lying and misdirection done during the lead up to the draft as GMs target guys but attempt to keep those targets and their strategy to themselves. But clearly Scot had him higher.

 

3 &5 - A monster DL? That's an exaggeration. Last year he could not get on the field as a starter as a 1st rounder. He was being used as a situational player and lost snaps towards the end of the season. He was actually taken out for passing downs - what he was supposed to be good at. This year he is still decent in run defense - but that's not really what he was supposedly drafted for. He started out with 6 sacks in the first 7 games and 2.5 of those were in the 1st gm of the season. Since the 1st gm he has 4.5 sacks and only 2 half sacks in the last 9! His tackles look decent until you see that over the last 5 gms - he had two gms with just 2 tackles. The other 3 gms are decent with Indy - 10, Mia - 6, and NE - 7 until you see it's because they lost those games by huge margins. The opposing scores were 41, 34, and 41 respectively. So that's 23 out of 66 tackles in 3 garbage games, which averages out to 3.6 tackles/gm in the other 12. Not exactly monster numbers. He does have 20 hurries but I can't find the game logs. My guess is they were weighted to early in the season but I do not know that to be fact. Also, let's not forget he is opposite Mohamed Wilkerson. So he was below average for his 1st season, started this season off very well but has been just OK the last half. That is not being a "monster".

 

4 & 6. Here were the top OG signed in 2015 - Note: I included their 2016 PFF ranking only to put them in some kind of order - PFF can be flawed in the finite but at least gives some idea where they rank):

Mike Lupati - 5yrs - $40M (avg $8M), $22.5 Guaranteed - AZ (PFF 37)

Orlando Franklin - 5yrs $36.5M (average $7.3M), $16.5M guaranteed. SD (PFF 72)

Cint Boling - Resigned with CN

James Carpenter - 4yrs - $19.1M ($4.774 Ave) $7.5 Guaranteed -  NY Jets (PFF 21)

Rob Sims - Out of football.

Joe Berger - Resigned with Minn.

 

Brandon Scherff is 19th and the is the only one going to the Pro-bowl. Of the 3 that were actual options, only James Carpenter might have been a deal. The other 2 are being over paid with their salaries being in he top 8 of all Guards. Not sure I would agree that the FA was good for Guards.  One player that has worked out is not a good market from what I can tell.

 

Unfortunately as long as the D is bad people will keep dragging up this argument. But the fact is Scherff was a great pick. He has solidified the RG position for probably as decade to come and in only his 2nd year has made the Probowl. While the skill positions are largely popularity contests, the lines and support positions are harder to get noticed. Can't stress enough how hard it is for a G to come in and make that kind on impact.

 

 

[TheGreek1973]

21 hours ago, daveakl said:

Sorry, you are 100% right.

 

The Josh Norman contract provides a good template for that.

 

5/75 with 50 guaranteed. 

Year 1: 8

Year 2: 20

Year 3: 17

Year 4: 14.5

Total 59.5 million

 

Let's say you sign him to that last year and he craps the bed.

 

You can't cut him after year 1. And you can't cut him after year 2. You're now stuck with a crap QB taking a huge chunk of your cap. (Hello Houston)

 

------------------

 

What we did: (using Lucks contract 5/123 83 guaranteed)

Year 1: 20 

Year 2: 18.4

Year 3: 19.4

Year 4: 24.4

Total: 82.2 million

 

So you basically are trading 23 million in cap space over 4 years (5.7 per year) to be certain Cousins is the man. And that's going off the idea that he would have signed a Norman type deal (which I bet would have needed to be a little higher) and now can get Lucks deal (which he may be able to get now).

One difference imo is if the QB sucks year 1 with this contract you are screwed. If the CB sucks you can move him to CB2 or slot corner. You have a little flexibility. 

 

If it's the QB it's way worse. (Although you could make him the punt protector like AA lol)

Still no one is answering the obvious question which is if you choose this guy over RGIII, the player you spend a ton of draft capital, he then plays very well and you win a division title, how the F you still not sure this is your guy?  Sure there is risk signing him to a long term deal, including career ending injury but that is the nature of the game.  But to say I need to see it another year after you already risked a lot to make him the starter and he proved you right simply doesn't make sense to me.

[bradboyd80]

16 hours ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

Since time began fans complained about their teams. I bet there were Romans complaining about some gladiator teams in the coliseum 2000 years ago. It is our right and duty. Now I never said SM was a idiot, in fact I said he is doing a good job. Maybe you should recheck your vibe input machine. I just was not happy with some of his draft choices. Now if you take the time to read, the original poster was asking us to assess SM and I did. You are right about one thing, I am not a draft expert but neither are you. Last time I checked we were living the the USA and I HAVE A RIGHT TO SAY WHAT IS ON MY MIND. Another thing, we as educated fans, for way over 50 years do not need boggers and mocks to see our beloved Washington Redskins team sucks on defense and we would appreciate it if SM would address it! So if I don't not like his draft choices I am supposed to say "it is fine Scot, Brad does not want me complaining. He says I have no right."

I think you're misunderstanding my point (again).  You have a right to your opinion.  But you were upset with the fact SM didn't draft who you wanted (I even bolded the points from your own post below), and are throwing a temper tantrum because of it.  So no matter who he drafted, you were going to be upset because a bunch of bloggers and mocks said Williams was the best talent in the draft.  My main point regarding Williams, Doctson, SM, etc, is that you can't rate draft picks until several years down the road.  You have no idea how these guys are going to develop.  Two or three years from now, Williams could disappear and turn into a huge bust.  You just don't know. 

 

The PREMISE? How do you know where SM had .Scherff rated? Did the Redskins make their draft plans public knowledge? Every board I saw had him going to the Giants at 9 or later. Draft true to your board? What happens if the best player in the draft falls to you and you never had him on your board? You pass on him because he is not on your board? I just said a WR is not the guy I would have taken in last years draft. I WANTED DEFENSE. Every mock had us taking Defense. WR pick made worse when the kid can't play. If SM drafted the guy I wanted and he could not play I would not bit**ing. The list on this thread that was made is as of now and no one knew on draft day who was going to flop. You can't say in Dec2016 that if we took someone else then he would be a flop too. Say it on draft day.Maybe a guy got hurt with the Saints may not have been hurt playing for us. All hypothetical.

 

[Taylor703]

I wanted Leonard Williams and if we could go back today and redo the pick I'd still take Williams. However that doesn't mean Scot got the pick wrong and Scherff is a Pro Bowl player and well on his way to being the best at his position. This was a situation where I feel we couldn't go wrong either way. 

[50yrSKINSfan]

Just now, Taylor703 said:

I wanted Leonard Williams and if we could go back today and redo the pick I'd still take Williams. However that doesn't mean Scot got the pick wrong and Scherff is a Pro Bowl player and well on his way to being the best at his position. This was a situation where I feel we couldn't go wrong either way. 

OK being everyone likes lists I took some time to check what I think is the best team in the NFL in the last 15 years and here is my list. New England Patriots draft history last 16 years. I am just doing 1st rd as my original complaint was that I felt Sheriff was drafted too high. Pats no 1st rd pick 2016. 2015 rd1-DT, 2014 rd1-DT, 2013 no 1st pick 2012 rd1-DE, and rd1 LB,   2010 rd1-CB, 2008 rd1-ILB, 2008 rd1-ILB, 2007 rd1-DB, all the way back to 2006 until they took offence with 1st pick and it was a RB. 04 rd1-NT, 03RD1-DE, 02 01 rd1 DT Anyone see a pattern here? Are they drafting BPA? Now lets see where they think Guards should be drafted 2015 G &C 4TH RD, 2011 RD1-T 17th pick, NOT 5TH PICK, 2010 G 6TH RD, 2009 G 4TH RD, 2008 ON O LINE, 2007 T 5TH RD, 2006 G 6TH RD, 2005 G 1ST RD 32 SELECTION, NOT 5TH, 2004 NO O LINE, 2003 C 5TH RD, 02 & 01 NO O LINE 2000 2 Tackles rd2&4. Anyone see a pattern here? Only guard they took in 1st rd in the last 16 years was with the 32nd pick, not the 5th pick like us. See why I think we drafted Sheriff too high. Plus the Pats are trying to protect the best and most valuable QB in the league. In this league of pitch and catch do you see them taking a WR in the 1st rd? Did you see them giving away the farm for a option QB? Anyone can see how they value defense. 

[goskins10]

22 minutes ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

OK being everyone likes lists I took some time to check what I think is the best team in the NFL in the last 15 years and here is my list. New England Patriots draft history last 16 years. I am just doing 1st rd as my original complaint was that I felt Sheriff was drafted too high. Pats 2015 rd1-DT, 2014 rd1-DT, 2013 no 1st pick 2012 rd1-DE, and rd1 LB,   2010 rd1-CB, 2008 rd1-ILB, 2008 rd1-ILB, 2007 rd1-DB, all the way back to 2006 until they took offence with 1st pick and it was a RB. 04 rd1-NT, 03RD1-DE, 02 01 rd1 DT Anyone see a pattern here? Are they drafting BPA? Now lets see where they think Guards should be drafted 2015 G &C 4TH RD, 2011 RD1-T 17th pick, NOT 5TH PICK, 2010 G 6TH RD, 2009 G 4TH RD, 2008 ON O LINE, 2007 T 5TH RD, 2006 G 6TH RD, 2005 G 1ST RD 32 SELECTION, NOT 5TH, 2004 NO O LINE, 2003 C 5TH RD, 02 & 01 NO O LINE 2000 2 Tackles rd2&4. Anyone see a pattern here? Only guard they took in 1st rd in the last 16 years was with the 32nd pick, not the 5th pick like us. See why I think we drafted Sheriff too high. Plus the Pats are trying to protect the best and most valuable QB in the league. In this league of pitch and catch do you see them taking a WR in the 1st rd? Did you see them giving away the farm for a option QB? Anyone can see how they value defense. 

 

Of those defensive picks - only 4 are still on the team - 3 starters McCourty, Brown, and Hightower and a back in Chandler Jones. So that's 7 picks in that time and 3 are not even on the team - including the 2014 pick who had to be released before his rookie contract was up! One is a back-up. So it that a good use of 1st rd picks? They may take D so much because they suck at drafting D

 

With all due respect what you seem to be either ignoring or missing all together is that the league changes. There was a time that more RBs were taken in the 1st rd than QBs - and Tackles were not taken until later rounds. In fact the top of the draft was typically skill positions. But now that as changed - OT, C, yes even Gs, LBs get taken early. QBs go very early even if they are not really that good. But RBs can be had in the 3rd rd on. There are very few Zek Elliotts.

 

Williams has jest been OK, not the so called "beast" some have said - only 7 sacks, 6 of which were by week 7. 23 of 66 tackles in the 3 blow out losses. Last year he could was a situational player - and not due to injury.

 

Brandon Scherff was considered by many the best Oline in the draft - regardless of position. It was rumored (yes it was just rumors) but local media that Scherff was in Scot's top 3. The fact that Willaims was there and he took Brandon would seem to confirm that guess.

 

We have a probowl RG that will help solidify that side of the line for 10 yrs or so - and just after 2 yrs. Williams has had some flashes, but has a been mostly underwhelming.

 

 

[Wildbunny]

1 hour ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

OK being everyone likes lists I took some time to check what I think is the best team in the NFL in the last 15 years and here is my list. New England Patriots draft history last 16 years. I am just doing 1st rd as my original complaint was that I felt Sheriff was drafted too high.

 

You went with the Patriots to prove your point that Scherff was drafted too high? That's probably the worst example you could have chosen.

Patriots over the last 15 years have hardly drafted a guy above the 20th position (I'm too lazy to look for, it's probably even lower than that), when they did have a pick.

Furthermore you're also looking for draft history of the team that have the less holes over it. That have a QB that may end up as GOAT regarding its position that can mask a lots of deficiency on its offense. Which gives them lots of flexibility when drafting (and don't care about drafting a QB in the first round...)

Also, if you rely on draftgeeks to make your opinion on draftees, then you should also know that past 20 there's no clear cut consensus about which guy is BPA or not. You can have a sense of the Top 10 guys by looking at a bunch of them, where you'll see the same names again and again, minus one or two.

 

But if you think it was a really relevant example, then, who was the 32nd BPA guy from the 2016 draft?

[50yrSKINSfan]

Just now, Wildbunny said:

 

You went with the Patriots to prove your point that Scherff was drafted too high? That's probably the worst example you could have chosen.

Patriots over the last 15 years have hardly drafted a guy above the 20th position (I'm too lazy to look for, it's probably even lower than that), when they did have a pick.

Furthermore you're also looking for draft history of the team that have the less holes over it. That have a QB that may end up as GOAT regarding its position that can mask a lots of deficiency on its offense. Which gives them lots of flexibility when drafting (and don't care about drafting a QB in the first round...)

Also, if you rely on draftgeeks to make your opinion on draftees, then you should also know that past 20 there's no clear cut consensus about which guy is BPA or not. You can have a sense of the Top 10 guys by looking at a bunch of them, where you'll see the same names again and again, minus one or two.

 

But if you think it was a really relevant example, then, who was the 32nd BPA guy from the 2016 draft?

Yes Bunny, I wanted to show how the best team in football over the last 10 - 15 years or so, goes about their drafting. Did you want me to use the Browns instead? Yes the Pats have a great QB and what round did they get him in? Did they give away a bunch of draft picks for him? Good point about the Pats never drafting above 20. Shows how good they are. They can win without ultra high draft choices, plus can you find anything about them moving up to take anyone? I did not check, but I can't remember them doing it with high draft picks. Plus they lost a 1st last year for deflate, and they still win.  GOSKINS10 brings up a interesting point. '"They may take D so much because they suck at drafting." Let's see, in the last 5 years the Pats have improved their D from 31st in 2011 to 25, 26, 13, 9 and now 8th. Looks like a steady improvement. Now us, 2011 13th then 28, 18, 20, 28 and now 29. We are going backwards! Now it is true we had holes everywhere so drafting a G with the 5th pick, to me is a waste. If SM was going to pass on Williams, why  couldn't he trade the pick and get  two good players for it? I mean he is supposed to be a the GREAT GM, at least that's what I am hearing here, and the Sheriff pick to me is OK but realistically it was not a brilliant pick. It is still a guard and in the last 15 years no other guard was taken that high.I mean he is a guard and not a skilled player. 

[The Consigliere]

Franklin, Mathis, of course Iupati, Boling, Blalock, Incognito, James Carpenter in 2015, in 2016 there was Osemele, Sutton, Mathis again, Boone, Jeff Allen, Incognito again, and Vasquez to name a few via FA.

 

In terms of the '15 draft, I liked a trade down for La'El Collins (rough last year as a starter, then injured last year, unimpressive to mediocre), Cam Erving (C/G, he's been shockingly bad), Ali Marpet and AJ Cann. Day 3 guys I liked were TJ Clemmings and Tre Jackson as well as huge values in round 4: both were good although both have been injured in '16. Of the class it seems as if Scherrf has clearly been the best, unless I'm missing someone, with market, and Cann being solid, and Clemmings being the huge value I thought he was. Tre Jackson played well but has battled injuries both years. Cam has sucked, Laken Tomlinson (not a big fan) seems to have been a bust as well. 

 

My plan would have been FA Guard, failure to secure one would have been to have drafted Marpet or Cann in round 2 or Collins or Cam in a trade down (that would have been awful), or Jackson or Clemmings in round 4. 

[50yrSKINSfan]

Just now, The Consigliere said:

Franklin, Mathis, of course Iupati, Boling, Blalock, Incognito, James Carpenter in 2015, in 2016 there was Osemele, Sutton, Mathis again, Boone, Jeff Allen, Incognito again, and Vasquez to name a few via FA.

 

In terms of the '15 draft, I liked a trade down for La'El Collins (rough last year as a starter, then injured last year, unimpressive to mediocre), Cam Erving (C/G, he's been shockingly bad), Ali Marpet and AJ Cann. Day 3 guys I liked were TJ Clemmings and Tre Jackson as well as huge values in round 4: both were good although both have been injured in '16. Of the class it seems as if Scherrf has clearly been the best, unless I'm missing someone, with market, and Cann being solid, and Clemmings being the huge value I thought he was. Tre Jackson played well but has battled injuries both years. Cam has sucked, Laken Tomlinson (not a big fan) seems to have been a bust as well. 

 

My plan would have been FA Guard, failure to secure one would have been to have drafted Marpet or Cann in round 2 or Collins or Cam in a trade down (that would have been awful), or Jackson or Clemmings in round 4. 

Another gem. Thanks.

[bobandweave]

4 hours ago, Taylor703 said:

I wanted Leonard Williams and if we could go back today and redo the pick I'd still take Williams. However that doesn't mean Scot got the pick wrong and Scherff is a Pro Bowl player and well on his way to being the best at his position. This was a situation where I feel we couldn't go wrong either way. 

 

Personally feel as if Williams would have been a luxury pick. 

 

Passing offenses win more NFL games then any style of offense in the game today and it has been this way for years. You can't have a stable passing game without a good offensive line. You can't have a good offensive line without good players there. We tried stocking the line with mid round picks and it didn't work. 

 

SM understands this and choose wisely. Thats not saying Williams isn't good he is, but luxury picks like him wouldn't help us as much as Brandon has. I don't understand the arguments or complaints for Williams honestly because even with a stout defensive line who actually thinks that without Brandon this line would be as good without him? Build the trenches both sides but plan offense first is the way to go

[50yrSKINSfan]

Just now, bobandweave said:

 

Personally feel as if Williams would have been a luxury pick. 

 

Passing offenses win more NFL games then any style of offense in the game today and it has been this way for years. You can't have a stable passing game without a good offensive line. You can't have a good offensive line without good players there. We tried stocking the line with mid round picks and it didn't work. 

 

SM understands this and choose wisely. Thats not saying Williams isn't good he is, but luxury picks like him wouldn't help us as much as Brandon has. I don't understand the arguments or complaints for Williams honestly because even with a stout defensive line who actually thinks that without Brandon this line would be as good without him? Build the trenches both sides but plan offense first is the way to go

I do not understand the luxury pick point. Don't you think Williams would have been so much more valuable than Sheriff today? Pick Williams #5 and get a monster tackle next year and STOP THE RUN! Everyone ran on us this year. I mean Sheriff was invisible unless you saw him wiff on the Giant D linemen blowing past him in the 1st half and almost killing KC.  Did he help with the running game? Passing offences win games? Maybe you missed the Giant running game BATTER us all day. Eli just stood there and handed off. No pressure. Offence line is decent but I would not call it a top 5 line if you can't run the ball. Blitzes not picked up.

[bobandweave]

First off no reason to type in all caps to me, secondly your trying hard to not understand simple things here

 

stopping the opposing RB requires more then just one guy. As much as you think that Williams would do that alone he wouldn't. He would help but it's about wins to me. The Jets have the 6th best rush stopping defense this year according to DVOA. How many wins did they get because they were good at that? This is a passing league and a Defensive Linemen does nothing to help a QB.

 

The top five defensive lines in front of the Jets are the Rams, Eagles, Cardinals, Panthers, and Chargers all teams who missed the playoffs. 

 

Brandon made the probowl because he is elite. Your most important position on the field is the QB. Protecting him is a must. the lack of protecting him today caused us many issues today. Protecting the QB is the job of many men. Not just one guy. 

 

You can neither claim that either guy is the single answer needed to the problems at hand: both units need more men then one guy. 

 

Now comparing the offensive lines to the best offensive lines like I did with the defensive lines our line with Brandon is ranked 3rd in fewest sacks allowed. First is Oakland, second Pittsburgh, fourth New England and fifth the Giants. In fact only the Redskins rank in the top ten who didn't make the playoffs in fewest sacks allowed. Less sacks equals more wins.

 

Its all about wins