Scott McCloughan: Honest Evaluation and Contract Renewal

[skinfan2k]

until GMSM announces his plan to "MAKE WASHINGTON GREAT AGAIN",  its hard to take him serious.  His first 2 years in office were good but i want to see more

[50yrSKINSfan]

Just now, crabbypatty said:

 

Didn't Kelly tear up his knee and have to sit out the season as well?

So you're sitting here arguing because the GM didn't pick the guy or position you wanted?

Newsflash guy, that describes 99.9% of us other football fans lol

 

It's already been pointed out that at the time and with the info available, none of the other picks in that range have made any sort of contribution either, soooo yeah.

 

you may not mind giving up picks to move up, but our GM certainly does.. hard to restock a roster from top to bottom when you're trading away picks.

You are right, without going over every draft they made, the skins never draft the guys I want. RG3, Desmond Howard? I am not waiting a year to say I did not like SM picks I said it then. I am a quality over quantity guy and I know in this world of FA and cap and with all the injuries you need depth so I can see him stacking picks.  I am not a draft expert and neither are any of us so it is all speculation. Something to waste time on.  Easy to go back now and say every player drafted between 20 and 32 stinks, but do it on draft day. On draft day I was saying, a WR? WTF? What was wrong with the corner the Steelers got in the 1st? Fine if our GM does not want to move up but lots of teams do and you can stock a roster with a bunch of average players. Not that hard to do. You can also have a team with a bunch of great players, harder to do. That is why they earn the big bucks.

Just now, crabbypatty said:

 

 

 

[Wildbunny]

3 minutes ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

You are right, without going over every draft they made, the skins never draft the guys I want. RG3, Desmond Howard? I am not waiting a year to say I did not like SM picks I said it then. I am a quality over quantity guy and I know in this world of FA and cap and with all the injuries you need depth so I can see him stacking picks.  I am not a draft expert and neither are any of us so it is all speculation. Something to waste time on.  Easy to go back now and say every player drafted between 20 and 32 stinks, but do it on draft day. On draft day I was saying, a WR? WTF? What was wrong with the corner the Steelers got in the 1st? Fine if our GM does not mind moving up but lots of teams do and you can stock a roster with a bunch of average players. Not that hard to do. You can also have a team with a bunch of great players, harder to do. That is why they earn the big bucks.

 

That's because our GM doesn't draft for need. He's going BPA.

So you don't have the same philosophy as our GM. Great for you, that's not how he works, so deals with it.

 

Our D is stocked with average players, and it doesn't look good.

Moving up? That's always a gamble you can do when you already have a good core of players that are reliable, which wasn't our position when Scott was signed here. So the best was to stockpile on it and capitalize as much as possible on good players. Doctson was is BPA, and is an insurance if we don't resign Garcon or DJax. You know, like the Packers drafting Rodgers when they had Brett Favre... By all accounts, players that are drafted need some seasoning, they need to get up to NFL speed, grab the playbook, emphasize on S&C as well... So, as a GM, you just don't draft for the year to come, but for two or three years down the line.

 

Mind you, you would probably be able to put on a great list of guys that went out of the draft having great years, but those are the exception, not the rule. It's OK if you take a year or two on developping a guy that will then turn out to be a beast for your team for 5/6 years. Especially if you're looking for quality over quantity, then you have to give them time to develop and not dump them at the first drop ball or fumble or missed tackle. Even if that cost you a game.

 

Then you have the FA Guys that are more a "win now option" than the draft. But you have to be cautious here as you're likely to overpay for every player in it. And while it's fine to sign FA guys, you don't want to put your team's salary cap in jeopardy forbidding you to sign your own guys on which you invested time.

[50yrSKINSfan]

Just now, Wildbunny said:

 

That's because our GM doesn't draft for need. He's going BPA.

So you don't have the same philosophy as our GM. Great for you, that's not how he works, so deals with it.

 

Our D is stocked with average players, and it doesn't look good.

Moving up? That's always a gamble you can do when you already have a good core of players that are reliable, which wasn't our position when Scott was signed here. So the best was to stockpile on it and capitalize as much as possible on good players. Doctson was is BPA, and is an insurance if we don't resign Garcon or DJax. You know, like the Packers drafting Rodgers when they had Brett Favre... By all accounts, players that are drafted need some seasoning, they need to get up to NFL speed, grab the playbook, emphasize on S&C as well... So, as a GM, you just don't draft for the year to come, but for two or three years down the line.

 

Mind you, you would probably be able to put on a great list of guys that went out of the draft having great years, but those are the exception, not the rule. It's OK if you take a year or two on developping a guy that will then turn out to be a beast for your team for 5/6 years. Especially if you're looking for quality over quantity, then you have to give them time to develop and not dump them at the first drop ball or fumble or missed tackle. Even if that cost you a game.

 

Then you have the FA Guys that are more a "win now option" than the draft. But you have to be cautious here as you're likely to overpay for every player in it. And while it's fine to sign FA guys, you don't want to put your team's salary cap in jeopardy forbidding you to sign your own guys on which you invested time.

Drafting the BPA started if I remember, with the Cowboys of the 60s. The Cowboys then were stacked with HOFers and all pros at like it seemed, every position. Just about every guy they drafted was going to sit. Hell they even drafted Stauback knowing he was not going to be available to play until he finished his military service. It soon became "the thing to do, look at the Cowboys they are awesome." "We better draft BPA so we can end up like the Cowboys." We are not the 60's Cowboys, and to me we should be drafting by need. What good is a receiver, who will sit the bench behind our guys, even if he is healthy, while other teams convert 3rd and longs on us all god dam DAY? Where is the consistency one year he drafts by need next year it is BPA.

[actorguy1]

Keep it up Scott! BPA early, for need later in the draft. Develop our own players and if they play well, pay them well. FA's are the icing on the cake not the batter. Ready to fly in year 3!

[50yrSKINSfan]

Just now, HTTRDynasty said:

 

 

Please tell me who else we could have picked in the first round that would have made a significant impact on our team this year...  PFF recently posted an article grading the 1st round rookies for the year.  I don't see anyone else who would have done much to help us this year:

 

22. Josh Doctson, WR, Redskins (TCU)

Snaps: 31

PFF overall grade: N/A

Josh Doctson’s rookie season has been blighted by injury, and he had only seen the field in two games—the first two of the year—before being placed on IR, ending his season.

23. Laquon Treadwell, WR, Vikings (Ole Miss)

Snaps: 79

PFF overall grade: N/A

At midseason, Laquon Treadwell had seen just 11 snaps on offense, and while that workload has increased exponentially over the second half of the year, his total still sits at just 79. He has seen three targets all season, catching one pass for 15 yards the first time the ball was thrown his way.

24. William Jackson III, CB, Bengals (Houston)

Snaps: 0

PFF overall grade: N/A

A torn pectoral muscle suffered in the first padded practice quickly ended Jackson’s rookie season; he has been on IR all year.

25. Artie Burns, CB, Steelers (University of Miami)

Snaps: 508

PFF overall grade: 76.3

No rookie cornerback has surrendered more touchdown catches than Artie Burns, but he also has three picks, five pass breakups, and has allowed fewer than 60 percent of the passes thrown into his coverage to be caught. One 95-yard catch-and-run by Mike Wallace skews his numbers, and Burns has shown a marked improvement over the second half of the season.

26. Paxton Lynch, QB, Broncos (Memphis)

Snaps: 174

PFF overall grade: 40.2

Since midseason, Paxton Lynch received one more opportunity to get on the field, with an injury to Trevor Siemian giving him the start in Week 13 against Jacksonville. He was arguably worse than his previous start, completing only 12 passes for 104 yards (just 4.3 yards per attempt). Lynch may be the QB of the future in Denver, but everything he has shown so far says that future is a long way off.

27. Kenny Clark, DT, Packers (UCLA)

Snaps: 318

PFF overall grade: 68.0

The Packers have worked Kenny Clark into the defensive-line rotation all season, and while he has flashed the occasional good play, they have been 300 largely non-descript snaps. Clark has just nine total QB pressures and 12 defensive stops on the year.

28. Joshua Garnett, RG, 49ers (Stanford)

Snaps: 655

PFF overall grade: 45.7

After entering the starting lineup in Week 5, Joshua Garnett has started 11 games for the 49ers at right guard, and struggled badly in both run blocking and pass protection. He has surrendered 33 total QB pressures, which is 10th-most among guards, despite playing four fewer games than most; only Arizona’s Earl Watford has a lower pass-blocking efficiency mark than Garnett’s 93.7.

29. Robert Nkemdiche, DT, Cardinals (Ole Miss)

Snaps: 82

PFF overall grade: N/A

A high-ankle sprain kept Robert Nkemdiche off the field early in the season, but he then found his way into head coach Bruce Arians’ doghouse, and has barely been seen all year.

30. Vernon Butler, DT, Panthers (Louisiana Tech)

Snaps: 204

PFF overall grade: 67.1

An injury limited Vernon Butler over much of the season, but he has played in the past six straight games, with 20-plus snaps in each. Over that time, though, he has flashed rather than performed consistently, with five total QB pressures and four defensive stops.

31. Germain Ifedi, OL, Seahawks (Texas A&M)

Snaps: 777

PFF overall grade: 37.6

Germain Ifedi has been one of the league’s worst offensive linemen in his rookie season, playing guard on a team that seems stacked with them. He has surrendered 38 total QB pressures (tied for fourth-most among guards), despite playing only 12 games, and been flagged eight times. His run blocking has at least been passable, but his pass protection needs to improve immeasurably for him to be a viable starter.

Nice list. Did you make it before the draft? I think not.  Anyone can be a Monday morning QB. Who did you want with our 22nd pick?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

One thing to point out with McCloughan is how he's hit on a WR. We've tried drafting WRs since the early-90s and generally failed. Desmond Howard, Michael Westbrook, Rod Gardner, Devin Thomas, Malcolm Kelly, etc. 

 

Who knows about Doctson, but what Crowder has done in his first two years are VERY encouraging! 

[TK]

9 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

One thing to point out with McCloughan is how he's hit on a WR. We've tried drafting WRs since the early-90s and generally failed. Desmond Howard, Michael Westbrook, Rod Gardner, Devin Thomas, Malcolm Kelly, etc. 

 

Who knows about Doctson, but what Crowder has done in his first two years are VERY encouraging! 

Maurice Harris. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

46 minutes ago, TK said:

Maurice Harris. 

We've had guys come in and do what he's done...we haven't had someone instantly come in and contribute as a starting rookie. 

[50yrSKINSfan]

Just now, TD_washingtonredskins said:

One thing to point out with McCloughan is how he's hit on a WR. We've tried drafting WRs since the early-90s and generally failed. Desmond Howard, Michael Westbrook, Rod Gardner, Devin Thomas, Malcolm Kelly, etc. 

 

Who knows about Doctson, but what Crowder has done in his first two years are VERY encouraging! 

Yes very encouraging. Don't want to say "even a blind squirrel" but yes Crowder was a good pick.

[crabbypatty]

9 minutes ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

Yes very encouraging. Don't want to say "even a blind squirrel" but yes Crowder was a good pick.

really as fans, we have no choice but to trust the process and hope it yields the desired results.

Maybe Doc turns into some mega stud and 2 years from now we're all crowing about how great he is like the dallasss fans and their precious dez.

We can hope anyway.

[The Consigliere]

16 hours ago, crabbypatty said:

 

It's baffling to say the least. I really think it comes down to Gruden's running scheme. Everything else has changed pieces at virtually all positions on the line, and RB, and still no real consistent AVERAGE success could be found on the ground. That leaves the finger pointed solely at one thing.. the "power" running scheme of Gruden's.. which is really not much more than a token attempt to keep teams honest so the team can sling the ball 8 out of 10 times. We always run out of these bunch formations with the TE's in tight and it's always some kind of trap style play inside. That **** ain't working.. unfortunately this is what we're stuck with for the duration of Gruden's tenure

 

 

Also add the talent of the runners. As much as I love Kelley's dedication, he's a literal 1st percentile athlete at the position. Everything he accomplishes is with desire and want to, rather than talent, and that's a credit to him, but it also is a question: what could happen with a. special RB? With a Dalvin Cook, or a Fournette? Or a lesser guy like Perine, or Conner, or Foreman. 

 

But yeah, I definitely think we need better at LG, but I'm not sure that's the core problem. 

 

 

[TheCoach22]

Team is on the up, drama on the down... Snyder invisible except when we needed to sign Norman... what's not to love? 

 

We have a FB guy calling the shots and the team is on the right track. Love it.

 

Josh's injury was unfortunate... hopefully he comes back, sort of the way Beasley did for Atlanta after his injury! In Scot I trust.

[The Consigliere]

16 hours ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

What makes no sense to me is that when you draft a player that high you want him to come in and help you right away. I hope he is great next year and for 10 years after but as of now he is not helping us. If the guy was that awesome then how come no one else took him before us? Sip said he was rated at 10 and we got him at 22, did SM miss some red flags? Has Doctson proved he can cut it up to now? I am all for giving him a chance as we have no choice. Look, I was down on the pick from the start. I'm sitting there, knowing we have a bottom third defense and SM drafts a receiver. Just not the guy I would have drafted so of course when he can't play I am really going to hate the pick. No need to give a list of guys that sat as for every one of them there are 10 guys that came in as rooks and have helped. P.S. I am running out of patience and time because it is getting closer to 60 than 50.

 

Player needs. I don't think he was a top 10 pick, think that's a rather looney take, but supposedly he had Scherrf as top 3 which would be clinically insane as well. But player needs were the reason he didn't go earlier, generally he was projected to go between 15-20. 

 

15. C. Coleman: Coleman's closest comp supposedly was a reach at OBJR, a speed guy who played in a wacky system and was rather raw with route running, but had the highest ceiling of WR's and tested better than Treadwell. 

16. Detroit: They signed Marvin Jones, so they weren't drafting a WR.

17. Atlanta: Signed Sanu (stupidly, anyone with half a brain new Sanu was a fraud, but for whatever reason, I guess the dearth of quality options, he had a crazy player friendly market)

18. Indy: They're going WR again? Their GM would have been s canned about .25 seconds after he enunciated the letter "J" in "Josh Doctson".  

19. Buffalo: They already drafted Watkins with a top 3 pick in '14, and used 2nd and 3rd rounders in '13 on WR's. 

20. NYJ: Already had Decker, and Brandon Marshall, plus quality young prospects in house. 

21. Houston: Everyone knew they wanted a field stretcher because Hopkins and Strong are anything but burners, so Doctson would have simply replicated what they already had. 

22. Washington: We could take Treadwell or Doctson. I liked both a lot, but preferred a trade down to take the guy Carolina took. That being said, he was still a value at 22. 

 

Like you I would have preferred he had gone DT, just like in '15 he absolutely should have gotten Williams to fix the DL. An all pro caliber DT is infinitely more expensive in FA, and in terms of draft pick cost as a pro bowl caliber Guard. End of Story. However with both first's he made picks based on other ideas/priorities. Not quite sure the thinking, maybe he already knew the '16 class of interior lineman sucked (it did), and the '16 class of DL's was strong (it was), but the '17 class of WR's could include Mike Williams, Corey Davis, Courtland Sutton (if he declares), John Ross, and probably the greatly overrated JuJu Smith-Schuster to name a few, so the only reason I can see for fixating on Doctson was in getting a WR comfortable with the system and ready to replace Garcon when he leaves, but of course that plan didn't work. 

 

The reality is when McCloughan came in the team appeared to need these things:

 

Offense:

QB

 

RB

 

2 OG's

1 Center

1 Right Tackle

 

Defense: 

3 Defensive Lineman

1 Edge Linebacker

2 Interior Linebackers

1 Corner

2 Safeties

 

Depth

 

and in terms of players that might be pursued aggressively by other squads, we had Ryan Kerrigan, Trent Williams, Desean Jackson, and Jordan Reed and that's it. 

 

In other words we had to do a full scale rebuild of our entire Defense, and a full scale rebuild of the entirety of our offense except for LT, WR and TE. 

 

To fix those kinds of issues you need at bare minimum, two, and probably more likely 3 off-season. He managed to help put together a squad that made it to the playoffs despite a bottom of the barrel roster when he came in in year one. It ridiculously inflated expectations. We still are a team with a ton of holes all over the place, but the rebuild largely from scratch has produced a team that has gone 17-13-1 in it's last 31 games. He has seemingly used FA to find cheap "Duct Tape," players to temporarily plug holes while he rebuilds the depth of the roster, and adds starter caliber talent when and wherever he can. The results are clear. The duct tape players have mostly proved to be even less than that, while the undrafted free agents have been just about as good, and in some cases better than the draftees. We now have plugged our holes at RT, RG, maybe at C, at WR3 (Slot), at QB, at CB (Norman and Breeland are now locked in), but we still need to rebuild 2/3's of the DL, and to find answers at LB and Safety as well. Can we do that in this offseason? Nope. Can we do some of it? Maybe. 

 

One thing people keep neglecting to mention in this thread in regards to the '16 class, a class I really really liked, is that you can't judge the class w/o mentioning that the '16 class includes currently pick 104 of the '17 draft (Round 4 pick 6), around pick 153 of the '17 draft (Round 5 Pick 14 or thereabouts), and around pick 199 of the '17 draft (Round 6 Pick 23 or thereabouts) via trades with the Jets, Saints and Texans respectively. We get those 3 draft picks in a draft fundamentally superior to the '16 draft, to this point, based on projections/expectations via some trade downs last spring. So we not only got quite a few players with loads of potential (Doctson looks like a #1 to me, pre-injury, Cravens looks like a legit weapon long term in his hybrid role, Fuller was/is a project nickel corner with perhaps starter potential long term as he learns to play a more fundamentally sound corner, and take fewer risks, Ioannidis (hopefully he develops and continues to improve after a disappointing summer), I didn't like the Sudfeld pick (developmental QB, but he was all arm, and didn't seem to have much of anything beyond that), I did love the Daniels and Marshall picks, Daniels seemed like a potential diamond in the rough, while Marshall was holding serve with Gurley early in his Georgia career before injuries derailed everything. I had high hopes with him, and to some degree still do (in the sense that I think he's fundamentally a better talent than any RB on the roster, it may mean nothing if he can't do squat with it, but if he can, it could mean a ton). 

 

For me, the '16 draft was all about landing a future starting WR, hybrid Safety/LB in Cravens, nickel back with starting potential in Fuller, speculative potential starting RB in Marshall, depth in Daniels, Sudfeld and Ioannidis, and adding 3 pieces of ammo to use in a loaded '17 draft. 

 

He loaded up so that pending that Carrier deal (sounds like we don't lose the 5th rounder (or was it 6th?) he'll have potentially 10 picks in a draft much better than the '15 and '16 classes before he even considers trading down in any given round. This has extra value to when you consider that our issues at WR and RB aren't crippling yet, and this draft is very deep at RB even w/some of the players coming back to school, and contrary to many arguments, it actually does have a lot of interesting WR prospects who should be available in round 3 or later. Guys with great athletic gifts unlike the largely athletically lacking 2016 WR class, and with the extra picks, if we wanted to load up on D, or go D and Ol early on, we could still potentially find long term starters at RB and WR if we waited until round 3 or 4. 

 

To me the key is that after spinning our wheels for nearly 25 years, we finally got a legit GM in charge after having back to back jokes (Casserly and his 0 for the decade of the 90's in terms of drafting first round quality players until he got fired in '99 after he finally hit on one, and of course Cerrato, who was so bad, Dwight Clark and Carmen Policy wouldn't even let him join them on their grand demolition of the Browns Part II Expansion level rebuild in '99 after working with him for half a decade in the nineties), and a cancer (Shanny) running the show. Because we're getting older, the last thing we can be is impatient. Impatience is why 2000-2009 was flushed down the toilet, and why Shanny's rebuild was half-hearted. Now we're finally doing it right, rebuilding through the draft, and picking our spots with free agency (could it be that this predilection for duct tape FA's was based upon McCloughan's preference to not add Cherry on Top expensive FA's until the team is in a position to make the last big jump with such a catalyst type signing? Doesn't make a ton of sense in pro football to spend through the nose on a FA who you project would merely change your team from a 5-11/6-10 side, to 8-8 side, but makes a ton of sense if you're a 9-7 side, and getting one could make you a 12-4 side, maybe that's why he's gone so cheap on FA's for the most part? 

 

Anyway, that's my view of things. We're putting things together in such a way that they can last, so that these one and done playoff runs followed by 2-4 years of a house of horrors, Caligula/Nero style nightmare cycle can finally end ('99 followed by '00-'04, '05 followed by '06, and '07 followed by '08-'11, and '12 followed by '13-'14). I'm sick to death of short cuts, and half derriered attempts at rebuilds followed by quick fixes to retain a paycheck (the Ernie Grunfeld approach to General Management), and I believe what he's trying to do can get it done, finally. Remember we're just a few years removed from the horror of every assistant on the planet telling us "Hell No," other than Jim Zorn in '08, and the Shannhan's pulling a "Samson," drag it down to kill your enemies conclusion to end their '10-'13 era. This team has had the foulest of stinks on it for nearly twenty years, and it's been damn hard to draw any talented F.O. types in our direction due to said stink. If we were to run off a GM whose league wide reputation is nearly peerless, who the heck would even consider interviewing here? Heck even Richard Thaler views our entire franchise as persona non-grata after we flushed his research down the toilet after hiring him more than a decade ago to bring analytics into our draft day decision making (only to completely ignore his findings during that grand era of horse manure drafts of the mid-aughts). Stay the course. It may be painful to wait an extra year or two, but punting on McCloughan would almost assuredly plunge us into another hells cape reminiscent of the dark decade plus of 2000-2014. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Wildbunny]

16 hours ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

Where is the consistency one year he drafts by need next year it is BPA.

Scherff was his BPA at that position last year.

But we had so many holes on the team that it also happened to be a need as well. (And we did draft him as a T)

[Darrell Green Fan]

16 hours ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

Nice list. Did you make it before the draft? I think not.  Anyone can be a Monday morning QB. Who did you want with our 22nd pick?

 

It wasn't Monday morning quarterbacking, it was a direct response to a poster who claimed you need production from a first round rookie in his first year.  The fact that the post he was responding to was quoted was a clue.  The post/list was spot on and the best response I have seen yet for those critical of the pick.

 

The posts on Doc are all over the map.  Some say he is already a bust, on the other end you have a poster describe how he "blew by the Dallas secondary" when we all know that it was a breakdown and he was allowed to run free and uncovered and Kirk found him late because he was like the 5th option.  Both takes of course are ridiculous.

 

Me?  I also wanted the center Kelly and apparently so did Scott.  Knowing his BPA philosophy I was hoping one of the DL in a strong DL class would be a BPA in the early rounds.  But understanding that it is a passing league, and with the knowledge that DJax and Pierre had expiring deals, I was fine with the pick.  I didn't expect much this year, even if healthy he would have seen limited snaps with such a strong WR group.  My issue here is assuming there is a full recovery his development has been set back nearly a full year.

[crabbypatty]

6 hours ago, The Consigliere said:

 

Also add the talent of the runners. As much as I love Kelley's dedication, he's a literal 1st percentile athlete at the position. Everything he accomplishes is with desire and want to, rather than talent, and that's a credit to him, but it also is a question: what could happen with a. special RB? With a Dalvin Cook, or a Fournette? Or a lesser guy like Perine, or Conner, or Foreman. 

 

But yeah, I definitely think we need better at LG, but I'm not sure that's the core problem. 

 

 

 

While I agree about Kelley on some levels, the amount of times backs get hit in the backfield or stoned just before the LOS and run for no gain leads me to believe the culprit is elsewhere. LG could definitely use an upgrade, but with how Gruden likes to bunch everyone up in the middle of the field, Kelley is running into 6, 7 or 8 man fronts every time, and it's maddening. I think that's why it seems like we get no push off the ball, there's too many defenders selling out for the run almost every time it seems. There must be some pretty obvious tells for the running game and teams tee off on it.

[50yrSKINSfan]

Just now, Wildbunny said:

Scherff was his BPA at that position last year.

But we had so many holes on the team that it also happened to be a need as well. (And we did draft him as a T)

Bunny he passed on Williams. It is harder to get a DE of Williams caliber than it is a guard. Guards you take 15 - 30 not top 5. Most had Williams best player in the whole draft.

[Darrell Green Fan]

I have been wondering for decades what makes coaches believe the easiest way to pick up a 3rd and 1 was to have as many people into a confined space as possible.

[50yrSKINSfan]

Just now, crabbypatty said:

 

While I agree about Kelley on some levels, the amount of times backs get hit in the backfield or stoned just before the LOS and run for no gain leads me to believe the culprit is elsewhere. LG could definitely use an upgrade, but with how Gruden likes to bunch everyone up in the middle of the field, Kelley is running into 6, 7 or 8 man fronts every time, and it's maddening. I think that's why it seems like we get no push off the ball, there's too many defenders selling out for the run almost every time it seems. There must be some pretty obvious tells for the running game and teams tee off on it.

I agree about Kelly not being the best athlete on the field but he does have some moves and he keeps his feet up and churning unlike the guy he replaced. Think we need a LG too but to have a good run game it helps to have a good blocking TE and I do not see that from JR.     BY THE WAY, BEST POST EVER FROM CONSIGLIERE. Lot of time and thinking, thank you.

[Wildbunny]

7 minutes ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

Bunny he passed on Williams. It is harder to get a DE of Williams caliber than it is a guard. Guards you take 15 - 30 not top 5. Most had Williams best player in the whole draft.

You don't seem to understand that Scherff was #3 on Scot's BPA list. With 1 & 2 being unknown, it's highly probable that Williams wasn't even in it. Making an uneducated guess here, that Fowler and Cooper were above him.

Draft geeks can say whatever they want, they are not relevant, only Scot's evaluation is in this situation.

 

9 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

I have been wondering for decades what makes coaches believe the easiest way to pick up a 3rd and 1 was to have as many people into a confined space as possible.

Remains of Rugby and the whole maul stuff?

[50yrSKINSfan]

Just now, crabbypatty said:

really as fans, we have no choice but to trust the process and hope it yields the desired results.

Maybe Doc turns into some mega stud and 2 years from now we're all crowing about how great he is like the dallasss fans and their precious dez.

We can hope anyway.

Great post crabby. Yes we are at their mercy. Hope you are right about Doc.

[50yrSKINSfan]

Just now, Wildbunny said:

Scherff was his BPA at that position last year.

But we had so many holes on the team that it also happened to be a need as well. (And we did draft him as a T)

Bunny don't get me started please. We had and still have holes on the D line too. Pos SM had those 2 other guys ahead of Williams but didn't they get picked before us? Once they are gone you throw your list away and go to plan B. 

[Wildbunny]

6 minutes ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

Bunny don't get me started please. We had and still have holes on the D line too. Pos SM had those 2 other guys ahead of Williams but didn't they get picked before us? Once they are gone you throw your list away and go to plan B. 

Well plan C for that matters. And plan C was Scherff on his list.

[50yrSKINSfan]

Just now, Wildbunny said:

Well plan C for that matters. And plan C was Scherff on his list.

I give up! Don't you have a job?