steve09ru Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 I don't completely agree, but I think it's a fair point. I'm wondering what you think follows from the fact police are killing unarmed white people too. Do you think this means we don't need reforms to hold police accountable, or that people of all races have a common interest in police reform, or something else? no, police to be held accountable, we need to do better training for these situations and raise wages for these individuals so that we get more qualified individuals into these positions. What we don't need is groups stating its only an issue for blacks which this fuels and increases racial tensions when that isn't the case. The media and other higher officials fueling this aren't helping. The point of what I stated is the Chris bakers and all others stating that only blacks are affected by this.It's an issue that can and should be improved upon but I also think it's overblown to an extent to where last night is expected as repercussions. We're talking a fraction of a percentage of these situations occurs. Let's say 5 million interactions have occurred this year (no idea on actual number). .0001% of interactions have resulted in death, justified or not. And the nots are inexcusable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 I think steve is making a point that is not, in and of itself, contradictory to what the rest of you are saying. Fewer interactions with whites (assuming this is true, I have the same experience as trythebeal! But I also haven't had time to look into interaction statistics and what it means), yet more police killings definitely has a meaning. Likewise, significantly more interactions with a significantly smaller portion of the general population also has its own meaning. Ultimately it's a very complicated situation and this is an example of when I complain about the vast majority of people knowing the bottom line stat, but not putting any effort into understanding the underlying work and what it all actually means. Ultimately we have a problem where cops have a tough and dangerous job, decades of racism in culture and policy has put the black population at a significantly disadvantageous situation, and very few people are working honestly to do anything about it. When's the last time you saw a major news network (not npr) dive into the nitty gritty of what a study means? Our entire society, on all sides, is putting so much effort into simplifying a complicated situation and then we all bang our heads at the lack of a solution. In addition to all that, we have another issue with gun control and that is just a whole nother can of worms, and regardless of where you fall on that issue it's undeniable that the volume of guns in our country, and the number of people with them (legally or not) just goes to further the level of danger the police have. I don't know how you 'solve' racism. You cannot demand people think differently. You can provide a mechanism to report and have the government act on it, but we have that and is anyone convinced it works well? It's a **** situation and it sucks. I used to believe time would solve racism and bigotry, with newer generations being less and less worse than previous. It's hard to believe that anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justice98 Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 http://www.vox.com/2015/5/28/8661977/race-police-officer I was taken aback by the story of the kid on crutches. He goes up there and the female partner starts acting a fool. This cop does nothing, THEN more cops show up and then they start acting up too. And at no point did this officer say anything about him stepping in. He basically idly stands by and allows this to happen in front of him, knowing its wrong. I guess it kinda fits right in to his point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve09ru Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Without knowing the actual number and nature of interactions, it's all a conjecture. Some may guess that black to police interaction is more numerous than white to police interaction when it may just be at a higher percentage considering population difference. Also, it may be nature of interaction resulting in black deaths may be different than nature of interactions resulting in white deaths (blacks dying in traffic stops vs whites dying in bank robberies). There are too many unknowns here for raw death statistics broken down by race to mean anything. What is true is that we see repeated coverage of blacks dying at the hand of the police under criticized (to say the least) circumstances where I can't recall a similar coverage for whites. That may be due to media bias or because these troubling interactions happen predominantly with blacks, but it's not the raw statistics shaping that. I'm not sure we have sufficient variety of information for statistical analysis. I tend to think if there were similar problematic killing of whites by police, we would see coverage of that too. The overwhelmingly more coverage of black death leads me to think that blacks tend to suffer disproportionately from excessive police force. this was also my point in reposting the link koolblue included. The number of killings of whites exceeds blacks by a decent number but media only reports one side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 It's a **** situation and it sucks. I used to believe time would solve racism and bigotry, with newer generations being less and less worse than previous. It's hard to believe that anymore.I don't know that I agree with that. I think it's gotten better. At least in my experience. I'm not proud to say I grew up with a pretty racist family. I don't think I'd be considered racist. Looking at the number of families that stemmed out of that family, there are a few that could be more enlightened but the majority think the older generation was wrong. I would hope all families are like that. The number of racist keeps going down. We are just seeing it isn't at zero yet.Edit: I will admit I'm pretty class-it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 this was also my point in reposting the link koolblue included. The number of killings of whites exceeds blacks by a decent number but media only reports one side. If you ignore the relative populations. Which you have simply commanded everybody to do. I bet the number of blacks killed is far larger than the number of cops. Therefore those cops should quit acting like its some big deal, when one of them gets killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 If you ignore the relative populations. Which you have simply commanded everybody to do. I bet the number of blacks killed is far larger than the number of cops. Therefore those cops should quit acting like its some big deal, when one of them gets killed. yes it is, especially since turds like last nights shooter is included....what was Sarges old saying? fine red mist or such Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor703 Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 You just got done saying they couldn't handle one shooter and were incompetent Amongst many other things that seemed a bit disrespectful. Saying the police were embarrassed they couldn't get one shooter is pretty terrible considering the guy ended up killing 5 people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve09ru Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 If you ignore the relative populations. Which you have simply commanded everybody to do. I bet the number of blacks killed is far larger than the number of cops. Therefore those cops should quit acting like its some big deal, when one of them gets killed. Did I say it shouldn't be a big deal when it does happen? No, it should be brought up and the appropriate sentencing should occur if someone is wrong. What I did say though is that it's not just a police vs black issue like the media and every person out there believes.Thanks for ignoring everything I said though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 How about this simple statement: If you're black, you have a higher likelihood of getting killed by the police than if you were white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 How about this simple statement: If you're black, you have a higher likelihood of getting killed by the police than if you were white. seems a reasonable sentence...and then ya get into why and it goes tp **** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve09ru Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 How about this simple statement: If you're black, you have a higher likelihood of getting killed by the police than if you were white. thats fine to say because it's true, you could also say: if you are white and have an interaction with police then you are more likely to be killed than if you were black.^again based off of the many statements that blacks are interacting with police at a higher overall number than whites per some individuals who have been posting here and elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 thats fine to say because it's true, you could also say: if you are white and have an interaction with police then you are more likely to be killed than if you were black. ^again based off of the many statements that blacks are interacting with police at a higher overall number than whites per some individuals who have been posting here and elsewhere. Do you not see the ginormous, glaring, gaping difference? Just being black raises your risk of being killed by a cop. Not doing something wrong, or interacting with cops. Just minding your business driving, or hanging with your friends in the park, or drinking at a backyard BBQ. But if you are white, you have to be interacting with police. So being white you have both strength in numbers AND the law on your side. You have to have the police in your face. HUGE difference.EDIT: and your point is still wrong. If you are black and have a higher instance of dying by police action, by definition your chance of being killed INTERACTIMG with police is higher as well because you are still black in both instances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 thats fine to say because it's true, you could also say: if you are white and have an interaction with police then you are more likely to be killed than if you were black. ^again based off of the many statements that blacks are interacting with police at a higher overall number than whites per some individuals who have been posting here and elsewhere. Do you have the numbers on interactions with police? Honest question because I didn't dig too far down on the post link once I found the stats that mattered to me. Personally, death is a more compelling statistic than interaction. But since your main interest, as you've hammered home, is interaction... Let's suppose you're correct and there are more black interactions than white interactions (full disclosure, I'd presume this to be fact). This isn't right. There shouldn't be more interactions with blacks. My impression, based mostly on some of my more jovial black friends, is that we (white people) put them in this situation. We brought them hear hundreds of years ago, against their will and have always put them at a disadvantage. This is by design and a very white vs black thing. The police are an extension of white supremacy over the black population. The fact that blacks are allowed little upward mobility and face much higher interactions with government oversight (read: police, other bureaucracies) further cements the suppression of black people. We (whites) did this and we continue to allow it to happen. Not my opinion (although some I may agree with), just regurgitating what I've read by some of my most outspoken black friends. Also, I'll add. I wouldn't fear for my life if I got pulled over by a police officer. Most of my black friends would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve09ru Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Do you have the numbers on interactions with police? Honest question because I didn't dig too far down on the post link once I found the stats that mattered to me. Personally, death is a more compelling statistic than interaction. But since your main interest, as you've hammered home, is interaction... Let's suppose you're correct and there are more black interactions than white interactions (full disclosure, I'd presume this to be fact). This isn't right. There shouldn't be more interactions with blacks. My impression, based mostly on some of my more jovial black friends, is that we (white people) put them in this situation. We brought them hear hundreds of years ago, against their will and have always put them at a disadvantage. This is by design and a very white vs black thing. The police are an extension of white supremacy over the black population. The fact that blacks are allowed little upward mobility and face much higher interactions with government oversight (read: police, other bureaucracies) further cements the suppression of black people. We (whites) did this and we continue to allow it to happen. Not my opinion (although some I may agree with), just regurgitating what I've read by some of my most outspoken black friends. i don't think you're getting what I'm saying or seeing what the link provided. What I'm saying is to those who have constantly hammered home that only blacks are in this situation. I've said time and time again that the deaths overall are an issue. The link shows 2x more whites killed and 1.5x more who are unarmed. What people have continuously thrown around is that blacks have more interactions and are contacted by police more than whites overall (you'll notice none of these people have been responding) and it's not just here that I've heard this. I also stated from my first post that there are still racial issues and there are a high number of interactions with blacks than they probably should be. Some of that is related to location and poverty and some is based on racial profiling. The other part is that the overall number of deaths that occur compared to interacts is at such a minuscule number compared to what it's made out to be by the media and everyone else. Doctor negligence and such never get brought up. The other thing is I brought up is that those in this profession are horribly underpaid and we need to do more in the qualifying area. Lastly, the media is driving this further and further into the hole to where we are going to have a hard time getting out of where we are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearrock Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 this was also my point in reposting the link koolblue included. The number of killings of whites exceeds blacks by a decent number but media only reports one side. Not all killing of unarmed people are newsworthy. You can't assume that white death and black death in police interactions are comparable without knowing the nature of the interaction. One person being killed by the police in a routine traffic stop is not comparable to a person being killed after belligerent and aggressive towards an officer, even if unarmed. Furthermore, your statistic simply doesn't get you to a conclusion which would contravene years of, at minimum, anecdotal evidence that most people have regarding the difference between whites and blacks when it comes to dealing with police. Also, check out the fact that in 2015, unarmed blacks were killed at 5 times the rate of unarmed whites. http://mappingpoliceviolence.org/unarmed/ I find it really hard to swallow that media is turning a blind eye to excessive force against whites and focusing on excessive force against blacks. There would at least be conservative outlets that would go crazy over such bias. edit to add: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/08/police-shootings-michael-brown-ferguson-black-men Interesting article that has BJS statistics on arrest related death from 2003 to 2009. 2 to 1.5 for white and black arrest related deaths. You keep relying on the assumption apparently held by some that black/police interactions are more numerous than white/police interactions (of course without ever commenting on whether you assume so as well). No one has raised statistics to actually support such an assumption (it would be fairly outrageous for black/police interactions to outnumber white/police interactions given the population disparity. That would be another gigantic issue on its own. But again, there is no basis to assume that as far as I know. Proportionally? Sure that may be true. More numerous? That would be mind boggling) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve09ru Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Not all killing of unarmed people are newsworthy. You can't assume that white death and black death in police interactions are comparable without knowing the nature of the interaction. One person being killed by the police in a routine traffic stop is not comparable to a person being killed after belligerent and aggressive towards an officer, even if unarmed. Furthermore, your statistic simply doesn't get you to a conclusion which would contravene years of, at minimum, anecdotal evidence that most people have regarding the difference between whites and blacks when it comes to dealing with police. Also, check out the fact that in 2015, unarmed blacks were killed at 5 times the rate of unarmed whites. http://mappingpoliceviolence.org/unarmed/ I find it really hard to swallow that media is turning a blind eye to excessive force against whites and focusing on excessive force against blacks. There would at least be conservative outlets that would go crazy over such bias. what gets the most views and what causes the most reaction? You see the same in sports, rg3 is irrelevant and was but his stories got hit after hit. The media controls us and will continue to do so until someone restricts them or holds them accountable for damages when they occur.You see them reporting false information time and time again to get those hits. And I agree on you're edited piece, I couldn't find those numbers and asked if anyone had those with my first post. But a 2 to 1.5 as you stated isn't that far off like so many make it out to be. My whole point is that this isn't just a black issue and solely a black issue as its being stated over and over here and everywhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 I don't have the energy for this argument. Black people are getting killed by police at a far greater rate than white people. Regardless of what other statistics you want to point out, the belief is that black people are getting killed by police at an alarming rate. Belief is reality. I can't know how frightening this reality is, but I'm certain it isn't sunshine and rainbows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Also, I'll add. I wouldn't fear for my life if I got pulled over by a police officer. I envy you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Even communication at a somewhat less than enlightened level is still communication...and that's a good thing. It's a big step up from calling for martial law like we had earlier in the day. Carry on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 I envy you. Cmon, I'm a white guy in my mid 30's. I'm average height and build. I have an inviting smile and no tattoos. I dress preppy. I do not possess a CCW. I drive a new but modest SUV that screams middle-upper class family man. I'm the last person the police would shoot up. Sad, but true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Hmm, think a few people called this: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/00f1334ea0b64b3ba8678a99b41eed0f/dallas-gun-rights-activist-says-he-was-defamed-police-id Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BornaSkinsFan83 Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Hmm, think a few people called this: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/00f1334ea0b64b3ba8678a99b41eed0f/dallas-gun-rights-activist-says-he-was-defamed-police-id He's gonna get paaaaaaaaid. Can't believe they left that tweet about him up all day (might still be up for all I know). Besides that though, honestly, we should be celebrating him. Exercised his rights as responsibly as you could possibly want from a person. He should be held up as an example of what to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Personally, I think people who open carry are giant toolbags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Personally, I think people who open carry are giant toolbags. Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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