Gunman Opens Fire at Pulse Gay Nightclub in Orlando

[TheGreatBuzz]

Part of me thinks you've got a great point. Stories like that one indicate that it's WAY too easy for somebody to wind up on a list.

OTOH, part of me says that there's something wrong with the notion that we can ban someone from getting on an airplane (after getting through security), but stopping them from getting a gun is too much.

Seems to me that it should be easier to stop someone from getting a gun, than it is to stop them from buying an airplane ticket.

I agree with both of these statements individually.  But do you prefer being over protective (your 2 year old can't get on a plane because she is on a terrorist watch list and it's pretty much an act of congress to get her off) or not protective enough (someone with plenty of circumstantial evidence that links to terrorist but can't do anything because of lack of due process)?  Or can we fix both lists?

[IHOPSkins]

Seems to me that it should be easier to stop someone from getting a gun, than it is to stop them from buying an airplane ticket.

Since the cat is out of the bag that you are on the watch list

MAYBE

Don't allow gun purchase if you are on the watch list until you EARN the right to be removed?

I don't have any details.....and sounds a little Big Brother....but there should be some kind of hold on Gun purchases if you pass a certain "Hate Index"....but you would have the ability to get off the list with some penance?

Thinking out loud here

EDIT....this was reposted in Gun Control Thread for reaction there

[grego]

In the US, I do not understand someone growing up here then justifying attacking the country.

Overseas, I can hear where some are coming from saying "ok, you don't want us to be terrorists, what's the alternative?". It reminds me of comments during the Afghanistan war were some villages agreed to stop helping with the opium trade and waited for legit jobs to show up. The legit jobs never came, and in an attempt to feed their family, guess what they went back to doing?

On a macro level this still very much feels like a socio-economic issue. I don't typically see the comparison to gangs here in the US (but I do) because their violence is typically targeted towards each other (gang vs gang) with civilians as occasional collateral damage, where islamic extremism is typically the opposite (they don't typically fight each other, and instead focus on attacking civilians).

.

Many examples of the recent perpetrators of terrorism seem to go against a socio economic position.

Jihadi John was a successful English computer scientist. The San Bernardino shooters were successful people. The 9 11 hijackers were college educated some with phds. Osama bin Laden was extremely wealthy and could have done anything he wanted, still he chose to live in caves trying to figure out ways to kill people who didn't think like he did.

How does that happen?

[PokerPacker]

Since the cat is out of the bag that you are on the watch list

MAYBE

Don't allow gun purchase if you are on the watch list until you EARN the right to be removed?

I don't have any details.....and sounds a little Big Brother....but there should be some kind of hold on Gun purchases if you pass a certain "Hate Index"....but you would have the ability to get off the list with some penance?

Thinking out loud here

So we just remove a constitutional right without due process and the burden of proof is on the accused? Goes against just about everything this country is supposed to stand for.

[Larry]

Post moved to the "gun control" thread, because that's where it belongs.

[Renegade7]

Many examples of the recent perpetrators of terrorism seem to go against a socio economic position.

Jihadi John was a successful English computer scientist. The San Bernardino shooters were successful people. The 9 11 hijackers were college educated some with phds. Osama bin Laden was extremely wealthy and could have done anything he wanted, still he chose to live in caves trying to figure out ways to kill people who didn't think like he did.

How does that happen?

 

You say perpetrators, but a couple of your highest ranking examples are well educated and/or funded individuals in a position of power in those terrorist organizations. I do not understand people that are educated / wealthy going this direction, but I understand Religion can be very powerful, as one's desire to do what they think is the right thing to do.

 

I don't know about Jihadi John, but in many ways my understanding is that Bin Laden felt slighted following the US involvement in Afghanistan's war against Russia (and mentioned several times his motives linking to the US being too heavily involved in Middle Eastern affairs and being stationed in countries in the area).

 

More often then not the individuals strapping themselves with bombs to kill innocents or going on suicide massacre missions are not wealthy / or highly educated.  That's where the socio-economic standpoint comes in for me.  You have vulnerable individuals all over the world with very little options to become productive members of society falling into your examples talons.

 

"Bin Laden" does not equal "women getting kidnapped and turned into suicide bombers".

 

In my mind, you gotta keep killing off the leaders and giving the subordinates alternatives with jobs and education.  That's not full-proof, but its better then giving up.

[justice98]

So we just remove a constitutional right without due process and the burden of proof is on the accused? Goes against just about everything this country is supposed to stand for.

A lot of things that go on in this country do that. It'd just be another on the list.

[TheGreatBuzz]

Since the cat is out of the bag that you are on the watch list

MAYBE

Don't allow gun purchase if you are on the watch list until you EARN the right to be removed?

I don't have any details.....and sounds a little Big Brother....but there should be some kind of hold on Gun purchases if you pass a certain "Hate Index"....but you would have the ability to get off the list with some penance?

Thinking out loud here

I'd like to address this but I think Larry had a good point.  We should move it to the Gun Control thread.

[justice98]

Much appreciation to all the first responders in this. My wife's an RN and was telling me about what happens in a situation like this, as far as medical personnel are concerned. Especially now that a state of emergency is declared.

[Larry]

Here in Gainesville. (About two hours from Orlando).

Some friends and I decided to get together and go donate blood, together. Checked out the web site, saw that the blood mobile was scheduled for the local Best Buy, this afternoon. Met there.

No bloodmobile.

Finally call one of their offices. (The main one doesn't answer the phone, on Sundays).

Seems that they had such a deluge of donors at their donor center, downtown, that they yanked all of the bloodmobiles off the street, to keep maximum personnel at their donor center. Said that they're staying open late, today. (Donor center usually closes at 2:00, Sunday). But also said that there's a two hour wait, to donate. So he suggests calling for an appointment, later in the week. Which is what we're going to do.

[grego]

You say perpetrators, but a couple of your highest ranking examples are well educated and/or funded individuals in a position of power in those terrorist organizations. I do not understand people that are educated / wealthy going this direction, but I understand Religion can be very powerful, as one's desire to do what they think is the right thing to do.

I don't know about Jihadi John, but in many ways my understanding is that Bin Laden felt slighted following the US involvement in Afghanistan's war against Russia (and mentioned several times his motives linking to the US being too heavily involved in Middle Eastern affairs and being stationed in countries in the area).

More often then not the individuals strapping themselves with bombs to kill innocents or going on suicide massacre missions are not wealthy / or highly educated. That's where the socio-economic standpoint comes in for me. You have vulnerable individuals all over the world with very little options to become productive members of society falling into your examples talons.

"Bin Laden" does not equal "women getting kidnapped and turned into suicide bombers".

True, but it the ones carrying out suicide missions in the US are disproportionately educated, successful people. They are largely suicide missions they're not telling uneducated, disenfranchised people what to do-, they are doing it.

Not sure about the ones carrying out attacks overseas as far as education or economic position.

Other Muslims, by far, are the victims of Islamic terrorism, which is something to think about when it comes to motive.

[88Comrade2000]

I cringe just thinking how Trump is gonna approach this.

Hillary already has this card in her deck and played it. She'll probably replay it.

He has already chastized Obama for not calling this attack Islamic terrorism.

 

I expect him to say, that not only Muslims should be banned from entering the country but the Muslims here deported. 

 

Every attack like this, that has a Muslim involved; whether or not it is related to jihadism or not; Trump will rile his flong of supporters.

 

 

There are 2 things that could tip the election to him; a full blown recession or a jihadist terrorist attack.

 

 

This attack was a terror attack but it feels more like the HATE crime variety. The guy hated gays..

[Koala]

You are absolutely correct. Self-radicalization and people inspired by international terrorism, even if there are no specific ties. As long as the internet exists, anyone can go to a pro ISIS forum and read up whatever hate they want.

Frankly, the ties between Islam and terror are the only thing that we know. That's why Donald Trump gets so much support - he's the only one brash enough to voice ever potentially curtailing that.

And no, I don't support Trump nor do I support a Muslim ban. I don't think there is a solution.

We are never going to ban guns. That's the only other answer.

But, how exactly gas Trump ever put forth a proposal to curtail or even address this situatuon? His ban on Muslims entering the US is irrelevant in the context of an American born convert.

And the Trump plans irrelvance is an issue considering that a high number of ISIS terrorists are western born, usually recent converts with few rooted ties to the Muslim community, I really don't see any solution that takes Islam into account other than banning Islam.

[Renegade7]

True, but it the ones carrying out suicide missions in the US are disproportionately educated, successful people. They are largely suicide missions they're not telling uneducated, disenfranchised people what to do-, they are doing it.

Not sure about the ones carrying out attacks overseas as far as education or economic position.

Other Muslims, by far, are the victims of Islamic terrorism, which is something to think about when it comes to motive.

 

Ya, these "leaders" aren't exactly leading by example by wearing the vests themselves. 

 

Thus the effort to get individuals they can manipulate into doing this for them (either by conversion or by force).  In a lot of ways, when I see articles online or what Visionary posts about attacks in prominently Muslim countries. Typically, its because of the government supporting the US or non-Muslims in said country are being targeted, like Christians and/or Coptics.

 

There's also several articles on certain terrorist groups getting desperate for finding people that will carry out suicide missions, thus a lot kidnapping and going after people they can convince to do it (huge source of that in third world countries in the area).

 

Islamic Terrorists groups don't focus on attacking each other like American Gangs do.  I know that's not easy for me to articulate, but that's very different then Bloods focusing their primary efforts on killing non-gang affiliated Black Americans.

[Spearfeather]

 

 

More often then not the individuals strapping themselves with bombs to kill innocents or going on suicide massacre missions are not wealthy / or highly educated.  That's where the socio-economic standpoint comes in for me.  You have vulnerable individuals all over the world with very little options to become productive members of society falling into your examples talons.

 

"Bin Laden" does not equal "women getting kidnapped and turned into suicide bombers".

 

In my mind, you gotta keep killing off the leaders and giving the subordinates alternatives with jobs and education.  That's not full-proof, but its better then giving up.

 

Not sure if you're talking about here or abroad, but as far as the attacks here, I don't think that's been the case.

 

Boston bomber was attending the University of Massachusetts.

 

Tennessee recruiting center shooter had an engineering degree from the University of Tennessee.

 

Fort Hood shooter Hassan was a psychiatrist and Army Major.

 

They all had plenty of options.

[SkinssRvA]

Here in Gainesville. (About two hours from Orlando).

Some friends and I decided to get together and go donate blood, together. Checked out the web site, saw that the blood mobile was scheduled for the local Best Buy, this afternoon. Met there.

No bloodmobile.

Finally call one of their offices. (The main one doesn't answer the phone, on Sundays).

Seems that they had such a deluge of donors at their donor center, downtown, that they yanked all of the bloodmobiles off the street, to keep maximum personnel at their donor center. Said that they're staying open late, today. (Donor center usually closes at 2:00, Sunday). But also said that there's a two hour wait, to donate. So he suggests calling for an appointment, later in the week. Which is what we're going to do.

Good to see so many people willing to help.  

[Renegade7]

Not sure if you're talking about here or abroad, but as far as the attacks here, I don't think that's been the case.

 

Boston bomber was attending the University of Massachusetts.

 

Tennessee recruiting center shooter had an engineering degree from the University of Tennessee.

 

Fort Hood shooter Hassan was a psychiatrist and Army Major.

 

They all had plenty of options.

 

Definitely talking about abroad.  I've mentioned a couple times I don't get why so many US attackers get converted.  Many are swearing allegiance to organizations that are filling their ranks overseas with the methods I mentioned though. 

 

I'd go so far as to say there are two types of terrorists (educated with options / uneducated without options) and you have to approach those situations differently.  People with Passports can be tracked.  People getting picked up off the street in third world countries you cannot approach like that.

[Destino]

If being disenfranchised, struggling economically, and being treated poorly by society in general made people terrorists the trans community would have killed us all by now.  This is not as simple as angry poor people, and it doesn't have to be.  Humans societies have been killing each other for what they see a irreconcilable differences for as long as there have been human societies.  The difference in this conflict is that one side is too small and weak for a straight forward confrontation and so they've devised another way to wage their war.

[Renegade7]

Even if it's not the primary reason, its a major factor that cannot be ignored and actually can be addressed in a structured manner (global initiative for economic opportunities in third world countries). 

 

This is as opposed to trying just kill all the terrorists that I don't feel anyone agrees is actually going to work. Especially if we no longer have the appetite for going into these countries and dealing with it ourselves with ground troops.

 

I don't underestimate not knowing what to do and being in serious danger of going in the wrong direction.  I've been through it, see it every day here in the states, and know it's way worse in different places overseas. 

[Gamebreaker]

Just got off the phone with my cousin. A long time friend of the family, and one of her best friends in HS was in that club last night. I knew him too.

No one has been able to reach him yet, and his family is heading to Orlando now.

We knew he was gay before he would ever admit it. And although my beliefs are different, and he and I have had our debates, I'd never want him to come to any harm. It isn't a good feeling to wonder if someone you knew was gunned down mercilessly like that.

[Larry]

I confess that part of me thinks that maybe some kind of Marshal Plan, designed to economically lift a lot of the places where this kind of stuff comes from, might be a wise investment. 

 

Frankly, I've wondered for some time if maybe trying to improve the standard of living in Palestine might be a really good idea. 

 

Although I also confess that it's a gamble.  I could see the terrorists trying to kill the aid workers, or the people who take jobs from the Americans, or some such. 

 

And, I also have to reflect, for example, on how many of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi.  A country that isn't exactly impoverished from lack of American dollars. 

[SkinsHokieFan]

Gun control is a necessary conversation, and one that needs to move towards action, there is no denying it. It's not going to stop terrorists though, and the evidence of that is abundant. These two issues are not the same, solving one will not solve the other.

 

The data suggests other wise 

 

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/terrorists-are-turning-to-guns-more-often-in-u-s-attacks/

 

 

Terrorists Are Turning To Guns More Often In U.S. Attacks

 

Experts say the increased use of guns in terror attacks is an alarming trend.Arie Perliger, director of terrorism studies at the U.S. Military Academy, said that U.S. terrorists are turning to guns because since Sept. 11, the federal government has monitored the use of explosives and the trade of materials that can be turned into explosives.³ People on the terrorism watch list aren’t barred from buying guns, by contrast, although such a ban probably wouldn’t have stopped the Charleston or San Bernardino shootings, because the suspects weren’t on the watch list.

 

[Destino]

The data suggests other wise 

 

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/terrorists-are-turning-to-guns-more-often-in-u-s-attacks/

Does it?  I don't see anywhere in that data set that a terrorist determined to kill people would simply throw up his hands and say "oh well, I tried" and go back to a non-violent existence if he was hindered in his first attempts to secure a firearm.  Consider the level of determination these folks demonstrate by happily giving their own lives.  There is no questioning their commitment.  

 

What that data shows is that they are following the path of least resistance now.  When they used bombs we made it extremely hard to build bombs in secret.  The NSA might be watching so you never know if trying to acquire the expertise online is safe.  Buying the materials in the quantities necessary become difficult to do anonymously. 

 

So the terrorists used planes. 

 

And we made that much less easy (and so did passengers who will now stomp anyone that scares them enough).  So now the terrorists have adapted to a less showy strategy that has a lower body count on average.  They've just decided to grab some guns and shoot people with them. 

 

If we make that harder they aren't going to stop, they'll find another way to lash out because they aren't against a time table and they aren't murdering because it's easy.  They are murdering because they are terrorists and want very much to kill people in the name of their disgusting ideology.

 

Where there's a will...  

 

Please note that none of this is an argument against doing something that makes it harder for them to buy guns.  I would very much like that to happen.  All I'm saying is that gun control won't win the war on terror and that the war on terror can not be reduced to fit into current convenient political arguments. 

[SkinsHokieFan]

Does it?  I don't see anywhere in that data set that a terrorist determined to kill people would simply throw up his hands and say "oh well, I tried" and go back to a non-violent existence if he was hindered in his first attempts to secure a firearm. 

 

They wouldn't have access to weapons that they can use to kill people.

 

They'd just be angry assholes. 

 

Terrorists haven't used large scale bombs in this country since McVeigh. They certainly can't use airplanes anymore.

 

So its guns 

[BornaSkinsFan83]

Are people thinking it's easy to buy this type of weaponry on the streets and them buying it legally is just a minor detail? Because it isn't.