d0ublestr0ker0ll Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 This isn't true by the definition of faith or by people's actual beliefs: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith 2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact. 3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust Belief without PROOF not EVIDENCE and even if the definition DID say without proof, it also explicitly carves out a definition independent of that one with respect to God. I don't know anybody that believes in God and has no reasons/evidence to. You might not find the reasons/evidence compelling yourself, but that isn't the same as saying there is no evidence/reasons. The words proof and evidence are the most direct synonyms for one another. Proof is based on having sufficient evidence. So while I may have shortchanged the definition of faith by saying it's the "belief in the absence of evidence", the description of "a firm belief with no proof" seems ridiculous enough. Can you present a little bit of the evidence you've heard for the existence of God so I can review it, test it, critique it, and try find any holes in it? Preferably non-anecdotal. Or do I have to really want to believe in God and angels? I feel like I'll have vivid hallucinations of the flying spaghetti monster if I believe in him enough. Which I do. Belief in a religious doctrine and a God goes hand in hand with the "belief without proof" definition of faith. They aren't two completely exclusive definitions of the same word. Like, for example, scale (as in to scale a fish) and scale (as in a weight scale). Belief in a God and a religious doctrine employs the same mechanism as the other definition of faith you cited - it's a belief that is not based on proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsfan1523 Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 Man this thread took a predictable turn. I would love for it to be a sign of another intelligent species, but it probably isn't. I'm of the mind that there are other intelligent species out there, but they're in the same boat we are. In that we can look at other solar systems, but can't determine if there is life there or not, and space travel is limited to within their solar system, just like us. It took billions of years for humans to become what we are now. It's more likely than not that other intelligent species in our galaxy are where we are as a race, instead of super advanced space traversing and building dyson spheres. I hope I'm wrong because it would be awesome if there was a way to traverse to other solar systems or even galaxies on a human lifetime scale. And this is one of my favorite things to talk about, because I don't think anything is more important to us a human race than to figure out how to traverse deep space and colonize other worlds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 The words proof and evidence are the most direct synonyms for one another. Proof is based on having sufficient evidence. So while I may have shortchanged the definition of faith by saying it's the "belief in the absence of evidence", the description of "a firm belief with no proof" seems ridiculous enough. Can you present a little bit of the evidence you've heard for the existence of God so I can review it, test it, critique it, and try find any holes in it? Preferably non-anecdotal. Or do I have to really want to believe in God and angels? I feel like I'll have vivid hallucinations of the flying spaghetti monster if I believe in him enough. Which I do. Belief in a religious doctrine and a God goes hand in hand with the "belief without proof" definition of faith. They aren't two completely exclusive definitions of the same word. Like, for example, scale (as in to scale a fish) and scale (as in a weight scale). Belief in a God and a religious doctrine employs the same mechanism as the other definition of faith you cited - it's a belief that is not based on proof. What is faith? This is a very good (and relatively short) article that answers you. http://rzim.org/a-slice-of-infinity/what-is-faith-2 “Faith is believing what you want to believe, yet cannot prove.” Sadly, many people, including some Christians, live with this definition of faith. For some it feels liberating. It means being able to believe in anything you want to believe. No explanation is required, indeed, no explanation can be given; it is just a matter of faith. For others, such a definition is sickening. Embracing faith means you stop thinking. As faith increases, reason and meaning eventually disappear. No explanations can be given, and none can be expected. Thus, living in faith is living in the dark. For both groups, the problem is the same. By starting with the wrong definition of faith, they have asked the wrong question, are dealing with the wrong problem, and so have ended up with the wrong answer. Rest at link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 The words proof and evidence are the most direct synonyms for one another. Proof is based on having sufficient evidence. So while I may have shortchanged the definition of faith by saying it's the "belief in the absence of evidence", the description of "a firm belief with no proof" seems ridiculous enough. Can you present a little bit of the evidence you've heard for the existence of God so I can review it, test it, critique it, and try find any holes in it? Preferably non-anecdotal. Or do I have to really want to believe in God and angels? I feel like I'll have vivid hallucinations of the flying spaghetti monster if I believe in him enough. Which I do. Belief in a religious doctrine and a God goes hand in hand with the "belief without proof" definition of faith. They aren't two completely exclusive definitions of the same word. Like, for example, scale (as in to scale a fish) and scale (as in a weight scale). Belief in a God and a religious doctrine employs the same mechanism as the other definition of faith you cited - it's a belief that is not based on proof. They aren't synonyms. They mean different things with the definition of one depending on another, but that doesn't make them synonyms. When you make a mistake, just admit it. Second, anecdotal evidence IS EVIDENCE, and we use it as evidence for all sort of things that we believe in. It isn't SCIENTIFIC evidence, but we take all sorts of actions everyday based on experential (ancedotal) evidence non-scientific evidence. By discounting anecdotal/personal experience evidence, the standard atheist wants to remove as evidence thing that we count as evidence for all sorts of things. Do you have anybody that you believe loves you (parents, kids, spouse, etc)? What evidence for it do you have? Have you ever conducted controlled scientific tests to come to that conclusion? Do you plan for tomorrow as if it will be like today (i.e. gravity will exist, that sun will be in the sky, etc)? Why? Did you do any scientific tests today to show that tomorrow will be like today? Are you going to go out tomorrow and conduct experiments to make sure your car isn't going to blow up before starting it? No. You do it based on the evidence you have from your personal experience, but in this conversation that sort of evidence is rejected as anecdotal and therefore not good. Realistically, the atheist wants to employee a burden of evidence in these cases that would bring our lives to a halt, even the application of science in the context of things like technology, if it was required for other things. It is ridiculous to require that everybody use this standard with respect to a belief in God and to suggest that something is wrong with them if they don't. Why can't I use the same standard with respect to believing my wife loves me and God? In terms of the evidence for God, whether you think it requires you already to want to believe in God likely depends on your perspective (which I'd suggest is based on your genetic make up and your environment). In terms of things that are universal to everybody, I think the best evidence for God is that the universe seems to make sense, and we can understand it by studying it. (That's my opinion. Other people will cite other things, including things like fine tuning arguments and the evidence for a historical Jesus and the growth of Christianity. Different people have their favorite reason, and it isn't hard to find them on the internet.) And while that seems trivial and common sensical to us today, that wasn't always the case. And in fact in western society, it was a prediction made by Christian scholars (e.g. St. Augustine). The creation of science in the western world is the result of a prediction, made by Christian scholar based on their belief in God. Christian scholars made the most significant prediction ever with respect to human kind based on their belief in God. Now, rather than derail this thread further, I'm going to ask if you want to continue this line of thought that you bump one of the old related threads. In fact, if you can start with this thread on about page 8 and read it and then if you have any relevant thoughts that would be helpful. http://es.redskins.com/topic/377589-how-can-a-loving-god-do-some-of-the-things-he-did/page-8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 The Dyson thing is really cool. Reminds me of a story I wrote when I was 18 about the spacing of the stars in the Milky Way. The story conjectured that each star was an artificial power generator. The reason they space out further is because we got more fuel efficient and didn't need refills as often.I wonder if I can find it. I remember liking it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 So we're talking about this: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogofWar1 Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 The Dyson thing is really cool. Reminds me of a story I wrote when I was 18 about the spacing of the stars in the Milky Way. The story conjectured that each star was an artificial power generator. The reason they space out further is because we got more fuel efficient and didn't need refills as often. I wonder if I can find it. I remember liking it. That's a really cool story idea. Like, early in the universe's existence stars were rare, but one of the first intelligent life forms realized the energy potential stars held and started seeding the universe with them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 That's a really cool story idea. Like, early in the universe's existence stars were rare, but one of the first intelligent life forms realized the energy potential stars held and started seeding the universe with them? Very much like that. I dimly remember one teacher telling me they couldn't get into the story because the science was too out there. I rarely have pretended to be a physicist even though as Big Bang Theory proves... physicists get all the hot chicks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogofWar1 Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 Very much like that. I dimly remember one teacher telling me they couldn't get into the story because the science was too out there. I rarely have pretended to be a physicist even though as Big Bang Theory proves... physicists get all the hot chicks Pffft, story too out there? You had the groundwork for Mass Effect. Or any cosmic eldritch story, for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 Moral of the day... "Never listen to your teachers, kids ;)" No, that can't be the moral. "Give the naysayers a kick in the rump and believe in yourself." That's better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogofWar1 Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 Moral of the day... "Never listen to your teachers, kids ;)" No, that can't be the moral. "Give the naysayers a kick in the rump and believe in yourself." That's better. What about "the most popular cartoon in existence for 10 years straight was about a talking sponge who lived in a pineapple and went on adventures with a starfish and an astronaut squirrel. NEVER underestimate how much weirdness people are willing to accept." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pedro Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 And maybe controlled thermonuclear fusion can't work or is so complex to contain that it isn't cost effective. It's possibly more complex than the real laws of nature require I think you'll be wrong about that. You think theories touted as facts will be completely dismissed in 25 years? In this golden age of science, we've been merely tweaking our findings. There have been no "omg the Earth's round???" moments. Darwinism has been around for what, 150 years? What scientific theories touted as facts have been completely dismissed in the past 25 years, or even past 100 years? I think in 25 years we'll have even more hard evidence for evolution, the history of our Earth and space, and we may even know how life began. Maybe not, but at least science is trying to find out. Again, I'm not blindly relying on science, or being superior, and all the other fine things I get accused of whenever I'm tricked in to a discussion about the grand scheme. I research and think about the prospect of a god, and wtf one would be all about, all the time. I don't think anyone is runnin this ****, especially any of the wacko gods and their even wackier stories. And I'm not about to sit here and write a book on all the reasons why I think that way. A lot of the reasons have nothing to do with science. The 'facts' we are taught may not be true, but take a look at the following and see what you think.... Most of us know that you cannot get more energy out than you put in but that appears to be incorrect (note I'm not talking perpetual motion, the energy for the following must and does come from 'somewhere'). Here's a link to a computer fan that spins (once started by hand) without power being obviously introduced: When watching it I noted that the inside of the fan hub is not shown so who knows what could be in there, plus the amount of power required to spin the fan would mean even if true the practical uses at the stage shown would be neglible. However I think it worth further research. Here's another one that shows the hub, spins (once started by hand) and also lights a little bulb: With this one the underside of the block on the left is not shown so who knows if power is being fed into that side? Given it's hard to let go of a life long 'belief' at this stage more research is required, as to say there's definately something there is hard as you know with a little power introduced the experiment could be easily 'concocted', and with out being there to pick things up and examine it is hard for a believer in 'our' science to rule out trickery of some sort (and we are being 'tricked' by one side or the other of this discussion....). Take a look at the following video from 58 minutes onward, and then try and explain what is happening, even if power is being supplied rather than generated as is claimed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFOiQ1wH9Sk I couldn't explain it, but if you watch the video from the start there is a very convincing one This following video shows there's more than one way and it's not 'new' cutting edge science, this stuff is known about: Moral of the day... "Never listen to your teachers, kids ;)" No, that can't be the moral. "Give the naysayers a kick in the rump and believe in yourself." That's better. Well said Burgold, something I'm only just switching onto myself :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elessar78 Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 One would hope.. but figure this.. what would the discovery of an alien species do to the multitudes of religious faiths around the globe? It seems to me that many of them rely on the notion of man being flawed, but superior in that this is all made just for us. Alien life, specifically alien life that would be either equal to or superior to us may cause a lot of people to either question their faith, or maybe question whether the role they have in God's cosmos is what they thought it was. No doubt that would cause a lot of panic, a lot of despair. and of course, the inevitable blaming of who is at fault for the predicament to begin with, or who is 'favored'... I think before we can come together in the face of a common alien we will have to go through a lot of upheaval first. Curious.. for our religious friends.. what would the discovery of alien life that is either equal to us or superior to us mean to you in regards to your faith? ~Bang What if the Aliens have their own religion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogofWar1 Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 What if the Aliens have their own religion? Call John. And get him a weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Call John. And get him a weapon. Or Jack Burton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted August 10, 2016 Author Share Posted August 10, 2016 Almost a year on, more evidence ... The Independent: Alien megastructure star’s strange behaviour can’t be understood with traditional explanations, scientists say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBass1724 Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 This video still wows me every time. If there is something/someone else out there, it could be so large and different than anything we are able to comprehend as humans. There could be another "earth" out there that is 100 times our size with proportionately sized "people". What we think of as "life" could be something that can't be comprehended by other universes. It's just so crazy to think about and the possibilities are endless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 5 hours ago, Corcaigh said: Almost a year on, more evidence ... The Independent: Alien megastructure star’s strange behaviour can’t be understood with traditional explanations, scientists say I like to think about what happens if we confirm, somehow, that it is in fact a dyson sphere. We'd pretty much have to start planning to build our own right? Couldn't let the alien Joneses lord their damned dyson sphere over us forever and we're already 1500 years behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 4 hours ago, CBass1724 said: This video still wows me every time. If there is something/someone else out there, it could be so large and different than anything we are able to comprehend as humans. There could be another "earth" out there that is 100 times our size with proportionately sized "people". What we think of as "life" could be something that can't be comprehended by other universes. It's just so crazy to think about and the possibilities are endless. That video was wrong at the end. I am the center of the Universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted August 11, 2016 Author Share Posted August 11, 2016 4 hours ago, PokerPacker said: That video was wrong at the end. I am the center of the Universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LD0506 Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 Probably just a bunch of teenage aliens gathering around that sun trying to nab Pokemons............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.