The Gun Control Debate Thread

[Redskins Diehard]

On 8/29/2022 at 5:11 PM, Redskins Diehard said:

The ones passed a year or two ago in Virginia may not stop car jacking but will absolutely have an impact on the flow of handguns into DC and into the hands of people who can't pass a background check.  Enterprising young men with a clean background could buy as many Glocks as they wanted each trip to the Nation's Gunshow and then "private sell" to their friends. At a markup of course. 

 

Gun control is so often about semiautomatic rifles because that's what frequently used in the "spectacular" attacks. 

 

I would bet that the handgun these 15-17 year olds used were first legally purchased here in VA. Whatever can make that not so easy may not stop it but will make it less frequent

 

On 8/29/2022 at 6:14 PM, tshile said:

I don’t know how anyone could say with any level of certainty where the guns are coming from. 
 

my understanding is the people researching it struggle mightily on that specific aspect and are left making vague guesses. 

There you go Larry.

I said I would bet the guns were bought in Virginia. 

TShile said he didn't know how anyone could say with any certainty where the guns were coming from. That people are left to make vague guesses.

 

I posted a link that says in 88 percent of 52k cases in NY they are able to say where the guns are coming from. 

 

It then changes from nobody could say with any certainty to its hard to say 88 percent of the time. 

 

I never claimed anyone could trace all the transactions. I said they buy in easy to buy places and then do private sales where background checks aren't required. 

 

I better stop here... wouldn't want you to have to read too much. Should've done a tshile and claimed research said certain things but then never post any link. Then you wouldn't have had to gut your way through those 20 pages!

[Larry]

1 hour ago, Redskins Diehard said:

I posted a link that says in 88 percent of 52k cases in NY they are able to say where the guns are coming from.

Just pointing out. 
 

It says that in 88% of the time, they can say what state the gun's first retail sale was in. (And half the time, they can tell you what day.).
 

And are continuing to argue that that's all the information that's needed on the subject. 
 

My birth certificate says I was born in Minnesota. It's not "where I come from". 
 

Knowing the location of the first legal document that mentions me, doesn't really tell you much about how I got here. 
 

-----

 

And I would have let this drop, if you'd left off the snarky personal attack.  
 

-----

 

Edit:

 

And it occurs to me. Knowing a gun's birthplace, so to speak - "the place where it entered the world" - is sufficient, to conclude some things. 
 

Knowing that a gun that was used in a crime, was first sold in say, Virginia, is sufficient to conclude that at some point in its life, it was driven across the NY state line. 
 

Don't know why it crossed. By whom. Was it carried across because the owner crossed?  Or was the crossing because of a sale?  A transfer of ownership?  
 

Lots of possible reasons for the crossing. If all you know about the gun are those two things. But you can state with certainty that it did cross state lines. 

Edited August 31, 2022 by Larry

[purbeast]

It's sad that since the Uvalde stuff is now further away in the distance so much of the gun control chatter has died down.  And I don't mean on these forums, but I just mean like you don't hear about it anymore in news and it's not a hot topic anymore and once again, it's just pushed into the background until the next school shooting happens now that school is back in session.

[tshile]

9 hours ago, Redskins Diehard said:

better stop here... wouldn't want you to have to read too much. Should've done a tshile and claimed research said certain things but then never post any link. Then you wouldn't have had to gut your way through those 20 pages!

it seems obviously you’re having difficulty tracking the actual conversation. And trying to explain this to you, is a giant distraction no one gives a **** about. 
 

but you’re struggling to understand what you’re reading and posting. It is what it is. 

3 hours ago, purbeast said:

It's sad that since the Uvalde stuff is now further away in the distance so much of the gun control chatter has died down.  And I don't mean on these forums, but I just mean like you don't hear about it anymore in news and it's not a hot topic anymore and once again, it's just pushed into the background until the next school shooting happens now that school is back in session.

I’ve pointed this out before. 
 

The pro-control people love to post their polls in support for things. But there’s two things that are always true about this:

 

- the polls showing lots of support, are for generic things like “more gun control” and “keeping guns out of the hands of bad people”. When you drill down on specific ideas - support fades fast. Most specific ideas are actually below 50% last time I checked. And “universal background checks” is a generic term because at some point you have to actually define what is being checked and when something should be a “no”, and again support fades fast when you start doing that. 
 

- support is always highest in the immediate aftermath of an incident, and support fades as you move away (time wise) from that incident. 
 

these are two issues I’ve observed the pro-control people having difficulty coming to grips with. But, it’s a very clear pattern. 

[Cooked Crack]

Quote

A sheriff’s spokeswoman said it was unlikely that the boy’s parents will face charges in the incident, which remains under investigation.

 

Edited August 31, 2022 by Cooked Crack

[Cooked Crack]

6 hours ago, purbeast said:

It's sad that since the Uvalde stuff is now further away in the distance so much of the gun control chatter has died down.  And I don't mean on these forums, but I just mean like you don't hear about it anymore in news and it's not a hot topic anymore and once again, it's just pushed into the background until the next school shooting happens now that school is back in session.

 

 

 

[Larry]

Well, he's probably right, about it not being possible in Texas. 
 

(Or anywhere else, probably). 

[China]

So the solution to school shootings is to arm the students?

 

Second-grade student found with two guns at Cochise County elementary school

 

Authorities are investigating after a second-grade student was found with two guns at a southeastern Arizona school.

 

On Monday, the Cochise County Sheriff's Office was called to Cochise Elementary School for reports that a 7-year-old student had a weapon.

 

When deputies arrived they met with school officials and the student.

 

Inside the boy's backpack were a gun and ammunition, according to CCSO. Additionally, a second handgun was discovered.

 

Authorities contacted the student's parents and a referral was completed for charges of misconduct with a weapon and minor in possession of a firearm.

 

Click on the link for the full article

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

On 8/29/2022 at 5:11 PM, Redskins Diehard said:

 Enterprising young men with a clean background could buy as many Glocks as they wanted each trip to the Nation's Gunshow and then "private sell" to their friends. At a markup of course. 

 

 

Against the law to do that . Buying a gun for someone who is prohibited by law from possessing one or for someone who does not want his or her name associated with the transaction is a "straw purchase." An illegal firearm purchase (straw purchase) is a federal crime. Straw purchases are illegal because federal law criminalizes the making of false statements to a dealer about a material fact on ATF Form 4473, which must be filled out when a firearm is purchased from a licensed dealer.

 

Most if not all Gun Shows Vendors use the FBI registration process check. Individuals to Individual sales where a crime can be traced to a transaction where the original licensed owner did not notify LEO of the transfer of the weapon can be charged civilly and criminally (repeat pattern)

 

BUT..they don't bother to prosecute these existing laws. You HAVE to ask why?

[CobraCommander]

10 minutes ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

Against the law to do that . Buying a gun for someone who is prohibited by law from possessing one or for someone who does not want his or her name associated with the transaction is a "straw purchase." An illegal firearm purchase (straw purchase) is a federal crime. Straw purchases are illegal because federal law criminalizes the making of false statements to a dealer about a material fact on ATF Form 4473, which must be filled out when a firearm is purchased from a licensed dealer.

 

Most if not all Gun Shows Vendors use the FBI registration process check. Individuals to Individual sales where a crime can be traced to a transaction where the original licensed owner did not notify LEO of the transfer of the weapon can be charged civilly and criminally (repeat pattern)

 

BUT..they don't bother to prosecute these existing laws. You HAVE to ask why?

So it's against the law, but people do it all the time and no one gets prosecuted? 

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

Here is THE Solution. Every time you violate a Federal gun law and didn't shoot/shoot at a person, you lose a digit (trigger finger 1st) Amputate it. They can only do that theoretically 8 times   No jail..just lose the finger. Murder/Attempted Murder just enforce the existing laws.

 

If you don't start making it unpleasant on these criminals, there will be no solution. When will people realized these are dangerous predators who DESTROY families.

 

 

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

12 minutes ago, CobraCommander said:

So it's against the law, but people do it all the time and no one gets prosecuted? 

Exactly....and I have not heard any politician explain why. Then you have Eric Holder knowingly put people at risk (agent killed) in his scandal and he's never been asked to explain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal

 

Frustrating to read these debates and people are unaware that the government is complicit

 

 

[TradeTheBeal!]

Big, big lies.  Every single word of it is an insult to our intelligence.

 

‘’Anyhoo…the private sale exemption/gun show loophole is a very real thing.  As anyone with half a brain, or a heart, knows.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_show_loophole

Edited September 1, 2022 by TradeTheBeal!

[CousinsCowgirl84]

On 8/31/2022 at 3:09 AM, Larry said:

Just pointing out. 
 

It says that in 88% of the time, they can say what state the gun's first retail sale was in. (And half the time, they can tell you what day.).
 

And are continuing to argue that that's all the information that's needed on the subject. 
 

My birth certificate says I was born in Minnesota. It's not "where I come from". 
 

Knowing the location of the first legal document that mentions me, doesn't really tell you much about how I got here. 

hmm.. I mean if the gun as never sold in Virginia it wouldn’t ever be in New York…. So it’s save to say the guns are coming from Virginia… 🤨

[tshile]

2 hours ago, CobraCommander said:

So it's against the law, but people do it all the time and no one gets prosecuted? 

I wouldn’t say no one. Certainly people get in trouble for it. 
 

but the extent to which it is happening, the people getting caught are supposedly just a tiny fraction. 
 

straw purchasing is supposedly a major way guns wind up in criminal hands. Other ways include theft from other people, and shady gun dealers that don’t necessarily require a full out straw purchase (the way it’s usually considered/discussed)

[Larry]

Clearly, there must be some reason why the government does not trace a gun back to a sale for which the government has no record. And then to the previous sale for which the government has no record. And then use those two transactions, which are legal except for intent, to attempt to try to prove intent, sufficient to get a criminal conviction. 
 

Obviously, the only explanation is that the government is complicit. 

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

1 hour ago, TradeTheBeal! said:

Big, big lies.  Every single word of it is an insult to our intelligence.

 

‘’Anyhoo…the private sale exemption/gun show loophole is a very real thing.  As anyone with half a brain, or a heart, knows.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_show_loophole

When Can a Gun Owner Be Liable?

Typically, a gun owner may only be liable for civil charges if their firearm is used in a crime by someone other than the legal gun owner. Criminal charges are usually only brought onto the party who committed the crime.

However, a gun owner may be subject to criminal charges if their gun is not legally registered, or if it does not follow the state’s gun laws.

 

https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/gun-owner-liability.html

 

ALL licensed vendors at Gun shows are required to do background checks. Private sales are not as regulated (depending on the Gun Show Rules) but "Registered Owners" who sell the weapons are responsible as long as they are the registered owner. Anyone who can read and research knows....

[tshile]

1 hour ago, Larry said:

Clearly, there must be some reason why the government does not trace a gun back to a sale for which the government has no record. And then to the previous sale for which the government has no record. And then use those two transactions, which are legal except for intent, to attempt to try to prove intent, sufficient to get a criminal conviction. 
 

Obviously, the only explanation is that the government is complicit. 

I’m sorry I get that you’re implying something I just can’t figure out what it is. 
 

but. Yeah. It’s the fault of our politicians making it a combination of:

- against their authority to track this studd

- understaffing/funding the capability. For instance I recall reading that the ATF only had enough staff to audit 3% (or something like that) a year and there’s a rule that they can only visit the same place once in 3 years so even when they catch someone they can’t come back on them to see if they corrected for 3 years. (Or something along those lines - been a while since I was heavy into reading this stuff)

 

we can track how often you but OTC cough syrups with DXM in it - and if you flag the system trigger a DEA investigation (or a local level extension of it). 
 

we can track everything you do with a phone in your pocket. 
 

and if the government wanted to dissect your life based on how you spend your money they’d have everything they need. 
 

we can’t track guns only because it’s been intentionally made very hard to accurately, reliably, and consistently track guns. 
 

yes. We can track some guns. In some circumstances. And we can use data modeling to inform us on what it means about the bigger picture. But otherwise it’s an intentional mess. 

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

46 minutes ago, tshile said:

I’m sorry I get that you’re implying something I just can’t figure out what it is. 
 

but. Yeah. It’s the fault of our politicians making it a combination of:

- against their authority to track this studd

- understaffing/funding the capability. For instance I recall reading that the ATF only had enough staff to audit 3% (or something like that) a year and there’s a rule that they can only visit the same place once in 3 years so even when they catch someone they can’t come back on them to see if they corrected for 3 years. (Or something along those lines - been a while since I was heavy into reading this stuff)

 

we can track how often you but OTC cough syrups with DXM in it - and if you flag the system trigger a DEA investigation (or a local level extension of it). 
 

we can track everything you do with a phone in your pocket. 
 

and if the government wanted to dissect your life based on how you spend your money they’d have everything they need. 
 

we can’t track guns only because it’s been intentionally made very hard to accurately, reliably, and consistently track guns. 
 

yes. We can track some guns. In some circumstances. And we can use data modeling to inform us on what it means about the bigger picture. But otherwise it’s an intentional mess. 

If you recover a gun at a crime scene or apprehend a person with an illegal gun (Straw Purchase/Stolen)..THOSE you can trace back to the origin and prosecute people in that supply chain...you don't need to monitor current sales to curb the problem...just follow the "touches" of the weapon and take action. You will probably find a FEW of the same people responsible for proliferating illegal guns...GET THEM..criminally or civilly ..good place to start. At least START and DO something besides passing laws that the government ignores..

[tshile]

8 minutes ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

If you recover a gun at a crime scene or apprehend a person with an illegal gun (Straw Purchase/Stolen)..THOSE you can trace back to the origin and prosecute people in that supply chain...you don't need to monitor current sales to curb the problem...just follow the "touches" of the weapon and take action. You will probably find a FEW of the same people responsible for proliferating illegal guns...GET THEM..criminally or civilly ..good place to start. At least START and DO something besides passing laws that the government ignores..

Well. Yes. In general all reports I’ve seen show that a small % of people are responsible for the bulk of the problem. 
 

I think the ease with which you say you can connect a gun in a crime to a straw purchase doesn’t match anything I’ve read. 
 

but again I haven’t done anything with the topic since pre-Covid so maybe things have changed and got better.  

[Cooked Crack]

 

 

[Cooked Crack]

Quote

Santos told police the 3-year-old got ahold of the weapon and accidentally fired it, striking the 5-month-old in the hip. The baby was rushed to Tampa General Hospital. Police said the child is expected to survive.

 

[China]

So by allowing concealed carry without a permit you end up with more people with hidden guns and fewer police and/or less well funded police?

 

Brilliant!

 

Welcome to the Wild West, or, er um, South.

 

Defunding law enforcement? Alabama sheriffs, county commission association sound alarm over drop in gun permit applications

 

Alabama sheriffs and the head of the state’s county commission association are sounding alarms about the financial implications of removing concealed carry permit revenues from their budgets.

 

The cuts could be deep for county sheriffs and could shave off up to 50% or more from an agency’s budget within the next year.

 

Alabama legislators voted earlier this year to repeal the state’s requirement for a permit to carry a concealed handgun. Many sheriffs opposed the move, arguing the permits not only provide them a way to screen people who should not have a gun but also because the permits are a major source of their funding.

 

Some sheriffs say they already have seen a drop in concealed carry permit applications in the months before the new permitless carry law takes effect Jan. 1. Sheriffs in Montgomery and Baldwin counties say they have seen 40% drops in revenue already, or losses that range anywhere from $200,000 to $400,000.

 

Click on the link for the full article

[tshile]

Hah their concern is the money lost from the fees. 
 

figures

 

by the way. Speaking of these permits. Someone I know is retired law enforcement. He’s got a permit valid in every state since it’s law enforcement. Something bush did after 9/11. 
 

his permit is only good for the gun he qualifies with. If he wants the option to carry different guns he must qualify with them all. Which ones he’s qualified with are stamped on it. He has to re-qualify every year, for every gun. 
 

For a regular person they don’t have to qualify once and they can carry any handgun they want 

Edited September 6, 2022 by tshile

[TheGreatBuzz]

2 hours ago, tshile said:

Hah their concern is the money lost from the fees. 
 

figures

 

by the way. Speaking of these permits. Someone I know is retired law enforcement. He’s got a permit valid in every state since it’s law enforcement. Something bush did after 9/11. 
 

his permit is only good for the gun he qualifies with. If he wants the option to carry different guns he must qualify with them all. Which ones he’s qualified with are stamped on it. He has to re-qualify every year, for every gun. 
 

For a regular person they don’t have to qualify once and they can carry any handgun they want 

 

I wish we could get something like that nationwide.  I'd have no problem with training and testing being required.