The Gun Control Debate Thread

[CobraCommander]

3 hours ago, purbeast said:

 I mean these criminals aren't making these guns themselves 

 

 

Yes actually they are. They are called ghost guns. They are kits you buy online and assemble yourself. You don’t need to pass any background check and they can be sold between states with no restrictions. They are being used at alarming rates in crime as well. 
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privately_made_firearm

 

A privately made firearm, sometimes called ghost gun or homemade firearm, is a firearm that is produced by a private individual rather than a corporate or government entity. The term is used mostly in the United States by gun control advocates, but it is increasingly being used by gun rights advocates and some in the firearm industry.^[1] Because home-manufacture of firearms for personal use is not considered to fall under the U.S. federal government's authority to regulate interstate, as opposed to intrastate, commerce per the Commerce Clause, individuals making their own firearms are not subject to federal or state commercial background check regulations. 

https://www.syracuse.com/crime/2022/08/almost-300-guns-including-177-ghost-guns-received-in-utica-gun-buyback.html?outputType=amp

Almost 300 guns - including 177 ‘ghost guns’ - received in Utica gun buyback

 

https://www.nhregister.com/news/article/New-Haven-gun-seizures-continue-to-rise-ghost-17407753.php

 

New Haven gun seizures continue to rise; ghost guns becoming ‘real concern,’ officials say

 

 

 

[tshile]

3 hours ago, purbeast said:

The underlying problem is how many guns are out there.  The ease of access to them is the underlying problem.

 

If they weren't "out there" then these criminals would have no way to get their hands on them.  I mean these criminals aren't making these guns themselves - they are stealing them or buying them from someone who stole them, most likely from someone who legally obtained it.

 

But hey let's not do ANYTHING about it since nothing will 100% solve the problem and there will still be criminals with guns.  Let's just put more legal guns in people's hands.  That seems to have been working just fine...

and even most of what’s suggested grandfathers in existing guns, or really doesn’t do anything for organized rings. Most of the stuff is either a reaction to mass shooters (ar-15 ban, for example) or waiting periods/red flags (which is more about emotion-base shootings and crazy people)

 

and I haven’t seen any serious traction on handguns. In fact - if I recall correctly handgun control has been getting its ads kicked in the courts the last 10 years. 
 

this is sort of what some of us have been trying to say the whole time - not all gun violence is equal and many ideas won’t do much about any of it. It would be like if we looked at unnecessary travel deaths and focused on airplanes crashing and ignored vehicle collisions. The rare but trending one gets the attention but the every day issue that kills way more people just goes without any real attention. 
 

the only idea that addresses if all is to confiscate guns and ban them or make them incredibly hard to acquire - with no grandfathering. And I don’t know that you’ll ever get traction on  that - and I find it impossible to think it’ll pass SCOTUS. 
 

In my opinion if you wanted to actually address the problems across the board you would focus on re-enabling the ATF to do it’s stated job, beefing up their staff so they can actually inspect all the gun stores in a year, remove the guards against tracking data (specifically purchases), require background check and official tracking of private purchases, and see what the data says. 
 

one report I read years ago put forth the idea that an incredibly small % of gun shops are responsible for the vast majority of crimes on the black market making it into criminals hands (despite this idea some have that people just walks across the border and buy guns from next door)

 

but research is thin because the laws and geared to make research hard. The CDC (or is NIH?) is actually barred from researching gun violence as an issue (unless they changed recently)

 

Ultimately people are trying to form big sweeping and serious change ideas without any real access to data on it. We’re spitballing with uninformed ideas. 
 

I think you’d even have a better chance of getting things passed, and holding up in court, if you chased what I suggested. 
 

and then we’d have real research to base ideas on and sell them. 

9 minutes ago, CobraCommander said:

Yes actually they are. They are called ghost guns. They are kits you buy online and assemble yourself. You don’t need to pass any background check and they can be sold between states with no restrictions. They are being used at alarming rates in crime as well. 

well it’s a little more complicated than that. 
 

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/the-atfs-definition-of-an-ar-15-lower-as-a-firearm-is-in-serious-trouble/

 

 

[tshile]

Also I laugh at the “privately made gun part”

 

when you assemble your furniture after it arrives is it now privately made furniture?

[CobraCommander]

1 minute ago, tshile said:

Also I laugh at the “privately made gun part”

 

when you assemble your furniture after it arrives is it now privately made furniture?

I guess?

 

I mean, are people not assembling their own guns that don't have serial number?

[Redskins Diehard]

7 hours ago, tshile said:

Have you actually read research reports on gun origins for crimes? 

Yes. Have you? 

8 hours ago, CobraCommander said:

I literally linked an article to Hawaii and their gun control/low gun violence yesterday and correlated it to being in the middle of the ocean. 

So you don't disagree? 😂

[tshile]

25 minutes ago, CobraCommander said:

I guess?

 

I mean, are people not assembling their own guns that don't have serial number?

It’s complicated. 
 

my understanding is all lowers even 80% finished ones have serial numbers. 
 

my other understanding is that all lowers even 80% finished ones require background checks and registering. 
 

although when I went to confirm that, I found the article I posted that said the ATF is in a bad spot because someone legally challenged that an 80% finished lower is *not* a gun and therefore doesn’t require background checks, registration, or a license to sell them. I’m not aware of anything else changing since then, but I wasn’t aware of that “change” either. The article explains it all. 
 

my other understanding is that with the ar-15 platform it’s the lower that is required to have the serial. I thought that was done during production and not afterwards. So maybe I’m wrong but I’m not aware of being able to acquire a lower without a serial number without it being filed off by someone else (which is illegal)

8 minutes ago, Redskins Diehard said:

Yes. Have you? 

Yup. And every one I’ve read has a huge caveat about their research that points out how they are handicapped by the laws and they are forced to make some guesses and they do their best to make them as educated as possible. 

Edited August 30, 2022 by tshile

[TheGreatBuzz]

36 minutes ago, tshile said:

and even most of what’s suggested grandfathers in existing guns, or really doesn’t do anything for organized rings. Most of the stuff is either a reaction to mass shooters (ar-15 ban, for example) or waiting periods/red flags (which is more about emotion-base shootings and crazy people)

 

and I haven’t seen any serious traction on handguns. In fact - if I recall correctly handgun control has been getting its ads kicked in the courts the last 10 years. 
 

this is sort of what some of us have been trying to say the whole time - not all gun violence is equal and many ideas won’t do much about any of it. It would be like if we looked at unnecessary travel deaths and focused on airplanes crashing and ignored vehicle collisions. The rare but trending one gets the attention but the every day issue that kills way more people just goes without any real attention. 
 

the only idea that addresses if all is to confiscate guns and ban them or make them incredibly hard to acquire - with no grandfathering. And I don’t know that you’ll ever get traction on  that - and I find it impossible to think it’ll pass SCOTUS. 
 

In my opinion if you wanted to actually address the problems across the board you would focus on re-enabling the ATF to do it’s stated job, beefing up their staff so they can actually inspect all the gun stores in a year, remove the guards against tracking data (specifically purchases), require background check and official tracking of private purchases, and see what the data says. 
 

one report I read years ago put forth the idea that an incredibly small % of gun shops are responsible for the vast majority of crimes on the black market making it into criminals hands (despite this idea some have that people just walks across the border and buy guns from next door)

 

but research is thin because the laws and geared to make research hard. The CDC (or is NIH?) is actually barred from researching gun violence as an issue (unless they changed recently)

 

Ultimately people are trying to form big sweeping and serious change ideas without any real access to data on it. We’re spitballing with uninformed ideas. 
 

I think you’d even have a better chance of getting things passed, and holding up in court, if you chased what I suggested. 
 

and then we’d have real research to base ideas on and sell them. 

well it’s a little more complicated than that. 
 

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/the-atfs-definition-of-an-ar-15-lower-as-a-firearm-is-in-serious-trouble/

 

 

 

I double thumbs up every thing about this except tracking private purchases.  I'm hesitant about that. 

[tshile]

27 minutes ago, CobraCommander said:

I guess?

 

putting pins and springs and parts together doesn’t feel like “privately made”

 

I understand the intent but in my opinion privately made would be more like the ease 3d printer things. 

1 minute ago, The Almighty Buzz said:

 

I double thumbs up every thing about this except tracking private purchases.  I'm hesitant about that. 

Totally get it. 
 

I have my reservations too. 
 

But I’m willing to at least discuss and consider it given the severity of the gun violence problem. 
 

and all the research I’ve read (though it’s been pre-Covid since I read any, last few years have lead to zero downtime since Covid started) suggests it’s a very small % of gun sellers causing the vast majority of the black market guns. I’m willing to combat that specific problem. 
 

but there’s a militant gun control segment out there that will never stop until guns are banned. So I’m always cautious of giving them an inch on anything, cause they’ll never be satisfied and will always push for a ban. You see it in this thread, and it’s definitely out there. 

[tshile]

Ugh. Sorry for the garbage typos. Stupid phone. Need to reset the autocorrect thing…

[Larry]

1 hour ago, The Almighty Buzz said:

 

I double thumbs up every thing about this except tracking private purchases.  I'm hesitant about that. 

 

I'm not.  

 

1)  I find it insulting that if I sell you my 20 year old F-150, we have to go to the DMV, with the truck's serial number.  (And proof that you're licensed, and have insurance).  But if I sell you the AR-15 that I bought an hour ago, gee, it's just a transaction that didn't happen.  

 

2)  And I find it insulting that when a gun gets used in a crime, the cops cannot account for who sold it to who, on what days.  

 

I think that tracking sales, by serial number, is a necessary element of the phrase "responsible gun ownership".  

 

1 hour ago, tshile said:

Ugh. Sorry for the garbage typos. Stupid phone. Need to reset the autocorrect thing…

 

A minister, a rabbit, and a priest walk into a bar.  
Bartender says "What'll you have?"  
Rabbit says "I don't know.  I'm only here because of Auto Correct".  

Edited August 30, 2022 by Larry

[Redskins Diehard]

2 hours ago, tshile said:

 

Yup. And every one I’ve read has a huge caveat about their research that points out how they are handicapped by the laws and they are forced to make some guesses and they do their best to make them as educated as possible. 

https://targettrafficking.ag.ny.gov/#part1

 

Law enforcement entities aren't handicapped by those laws. There's some pretty good information in there about how this all happens. 

54 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

I'm not.  

 

1)  I find it insulting that if I sell you my 20 year old F-150, we have to go to the DMV, with the truck's serial number.  (And proof that you're licensed, and have insurance).  But if I sell you the AR-15 that I bought an hour ago, gee, it's just a transaction that didn't happen.  

 

2)  And I find it insulting that when a gun gets used in a crime, the cops cannot account for who sold it to who, on what days.  

 

I think that tracking sales, by serial number, is a necessary element of the phrase "responsible gun ownership".  

 

Yeah, I didn't always agree with this but now think it's a pretty important step. Background checks are exceedingly easy to circumvent with private sales.  I think Virginia made a pretty good step in the direction of not being a "supplier state" passing the one a month law. And I don't think a reasonable person could argue that infringes on a constitutional right.  

[tshile]

49 minutes ago, Redskins Diehard said:

Law enforcement entities aren't handicapped by those laws

The ATF, the federal org with overall say in gun manufacturing and sales, is absolutely handicapped. 
 

Are the lower levels authorized to audit gun brokers?

[Redskins Diehard]

11 minutes ago, tshile said:

The ATF, the federal org with overall say in gun manufacturing and sales, is absolutely handicapped. 
 

Are the lower levels authorized to audit gun brokers?

Speaking purely in terms of tracing recovered guns. Is that not the studies you were talking about? 

[tshile]

7 minutes ago, Redskins Diehard said:

Speaking purely in terms of tracing recovered guns. Is that not the studies you were talking about? 

Yes. 
 

it’s hard to trace guns when you don’t know who sold them to who, and part of that is inventorying and auditing gun brokers 

 

 

as far as I’m aware only the ATF has the authority but lacks the manpower to review more than a tiny fraction a year (I believe below 3% but I can’t really remember)

You also have weird situations where guns ‘disappear’ and because there’s no inventorying there are organized efforts to make guns ‘disappear’ before they get used in crimes. 

Edited August 30, 2022 by tshile

[youngestson]

4 hours ago, CobraCommander said:

I guess?

 

I mean, are people not assembling their own guns that don't have serial number?

It sort of depends. In Maryland purchasing a lower receiver is treated much like buying a handgun. An application is made, background conducted, waiting period started. And THAT part of the weapon will have a serial number. The other parts...well, some will be serialized and some will not. 

[TheGreatBuzz]

Yea I'm pretty sure it is illegal to not have a serial number on a lower receiver. 

[Larry]

Possible solution:  Make possession of a firearm that does not have a serial number (of a specified type) a crime?  

 

For a long time, carrying a concealed weapon was a crime.  Because it was considered to be proof of intent to commit a crime with it.  Make carrying a weapon with a removed serial, or that never had one, the same thing.  

 

Make it an additional charge, on top of any other crime using the weapon.  Again, because it indicates criminal intent, in advance.  

[tshile]

20 minutes ago, The Almighty Buzz said:

Yea I'm pretty sure it is illegal to not have a serial number on a lower receiver. 

That’s my understanding too… but I’m open the idea I’m wrong if someone can show me. 
 

Im pretty sure I understand the process of purchasing a lower receiver, stripped or not. 

23 minutes ago, youngestson said:

The other parts...well, some will be serialized and some will not. 

They might be serialized because that’s what the manufacturer does, but to be clear, the lower receiver is the one that gets the serial that represents the gun. 
 

it’s defined and required for manufacturing. For the purpose of the law, that is the part that is the “gun”. I do not believe you can order it online and direct ship to your house, I believe it must ship to a broker for a background check. 

 

in fact none of the other parts, not a single part, requires anything and can be purchased online and shipped directly to your house. 
 

if they do ban ar-15s and require they be turned in, all one need to do is strip the gun down and turn in the lower receiver. The rest the parts are legal. 
 

Edited August 31, 2022 by tshile

[Redskins Diehard]

34 minutes ago, tshile said:

Yes. 
 

it’s hard to trace guns when you don’t know who sold them to who, and part of that is inventorying and auditing gun brokers 

 

 

as far as I’m aware only the ATF has the authority but lacks the manpower to review more than a tiny fraction a year (I believe below 3% but I can’t really remember)

You also have weird situations where guns ‘disappear’ and because there’s no inventorying there are organized efforts to make guns ‘disappear’ before they get used in crimes. 

It's virtually impossible to trace everyone who has had possession of a gun when private sales are not tracked. Where it originated, first passed from regulated dealer sale to private buyer is not. Back to the original point...I would bet, not guarantee, that the guns used on Robinson originated in VA.  Why? Because it's so effing easy.  They, the police, will likely know the answer in time. In fact, they'll likely know exactly where those guns were legally purchased and who legally bought them. But it won't matter.

[TheGreatBuzz]

6 minutes ago, Redskins Diehard said:

It's virtually impossible to trace everyone who has had possession of a gun when private sales are not tracked. Where it originated, first passed from regulated dealer sale to private buyer is not. Back to the original point...I would bet, not guarantee, that the guns used on Robinson originated in VA.  Why? Because it's so effing easy.  They, the police, will likely know the answer in time. In fact, they'll likely know exactly where those guns were legally purchased and who legally bought them. But it won't matter.

 

I keep records of all guns I buy and sell along with copy of photo ID.  And I keep them indefinitely.  Alot of my friends do this also.  So if the police ever come to ask about our part in the ownership trail of a particular gun, we can answer with records.

[tshile]

8 minutes ago, Redskins Diehard said:

It's virtually impossible to trace everyone who has had possession of a gun when private sales are not tracked. Where it originated, first passed from regulated dealer sale to private buyer is not.

Not just private sales… and yeah that’s part of tracing guns. Straw buyers for example. 
 

what you bet is irrelevant to what the people doing the research say about the difficulties in doing their research, much of which (if not all?) is intentional. 

1 minute ago, The Almighty Buzz said:

 

I keep records of all guns I buy and sell along with copy of photo ID.  And I keep them indefinitely.  Alot of my friends do this also.  So if the police ever come to ask about our part in the ownership trail of a particular gun, we can answer with records.

That’s how I was taught. 
 

don’t want their ability to trace a gun from a crime to you, and then have no one else to go to. 

[TheGreatBuzz]

2 minutes ago, tshile said:

That’s how I was taught. 
 

don’t want their ability to trace a gun from a crime to you, and then have no one else to go to. 

 

I've had people refuse to do it this way.  So I just won't do business with them. 

[Redskins Diehard]

9 minutes ago, tshile said:

Not just private sales… and yeah that’s part of tracing guns. Straw buyers for example. 
 

what you bet is irrelevant to what the people doing the research say about the difficulties in doing their research, much of which (if not all?) is intentional. 

That’s how I was taught. 
 

don’t want their ability to trace a gun from a crime to you, and then have no one else to go to. 

Okay fella. Yeah a private seller and straw purchaser is the same thing. If your research isn't using data provided to law enforcement it is irrelevant. Law enforcement was at the place Aaron alexis bought his gun the same day he used. How'd that happen? 

Edited August 31, 2022 by Redskins Diehard

[tshile]

6 minutes ago, Redskins Diehard said:

Okay fella. Yeah a private seller and straw purchaser is the same thing. If your research isn't using data provided to law enforcement it is irrelevant. Law enforcement was at the place Aaron alexis bought his gun the same day he used. How'd that happen? 

I didn’t say they were the same thing. At all. 
 

at the point the only thing I can assume is you haven’t actually read research on guns. 
 

cause literally every paper spends time talking about how difficult it is to do the research given the inadequate laws to allow such research to be done. 
 

it’s boilerplate

edit: of course, for the second time, I haven’t spent much time with them since Covid started. So maybe things have changed dramatically in 3 years, but as far as I’m aware the laws about what records could be kept and for how long haven’t changed. Neither has the atf’s ability to enforce the other laws and regulations. 

Edited August 31, 2022 by tshile

[Redskins Diehard]

15 minutes ago, The Almighty Buzz said:

 

I keep records of all guns I buy and sell along with copy of photo ID.  And I keep them indefinitely.  Alot of my friends do this also.  So if the police ever come to ask about our part in the ownership trail of a particular gun, we can answer with records.

Do you run background checks on people you sell to? If so, good on you. 

Just now, tshile said:

I didn’t say they were the same thing. At all. 
 

at the point the only thing I can assume is you haven’t actually read research on guns. 
 

cause literally every paper spends time talking about how difficult it is to do the research given the inadequate laws to allow such research to be done. 
 

it’s boilerplate

And I can assume you didn't look at the link. Where it specifically says who the ATF will give data to and who it won't. Just because your researchers don't have access to the data doesn't mean there data doesn't exist