Shooting At A Charleston SC Church (and now the Confederate Flag Tangent--MET)

[TheGoodBits]

Kid Rock is a big history buff. "Early Mornin Stoned Pimp" is really an modern parable revisiting the consequences of the Gadsden Purchase and the Pierce administration, as a whole.

:lol:

[tshile]

So we're finding out how he got the gun.

 

Someone at the police office didn't key in the right phone number for the department that arrested him.

 

So when the background check request came in, the clerk at the FBI couldn't get through to the right people. So... they did nothing.

 

So after 3 days of pending background check approval, the gun store owner used his legal discretion to sell the gun anyways (I didn't know that existed?)

 

Fire the FBI clerk for being lazy.

Maybe fire the person who put the wrong phone number in, depends on employee record.

Figure out some way of punishing their supervisors.

 

Get rid of this loophole where after 3 days you can just sell the gun. I get why it exists, they don't want an administration to restrict gun ownership by delaying background checks. Politicians are so ****ty you can't trust them not to do that, I get it. So let's come up with something other than "just give them the gun."

 

CNN - FBI says Dylann Roof should not have been cleared to purchase a weapon

[mistertim]

Eh, I think that's a bit conspiracy theory, tshile. In practical application it would require politicians to oversee every single firearm background check and force each one to be delayed. I suppose they COULD try to institute some general rules within the process that intentionally gums it up but that would be incredibly transparent and would be playing with fire. If they are caught they would be in deep doo doo. If not with the law, then with the NRA, meaning they would never hold office again in their lives, given how powerful the NRA is. I say make it 3 days and then if no response they can't sell the weapon. They can always resubmit it I'm sure.

[Larry]

Eh, I think that's a bit conspiracy theory, tshile. In practical application it would require politicians to oversee every single firearm background check and force each one to be delayed.

Or it would require the police chief to say "all background checks go through Pete, here", and then simply tell Pete that any application that doesn't come personally from the Chief, gets "lost".

At least as I understand it, that's the way things used to be, for a long time. Gun permits went to the chief of police, and the criteria for being approved was you had to donate $50,000 to the Chief's election fund, or you had to have been buddys with the Chief for 20 years.

 

And that's before we even get into the possibility that maybe only applications from minorities get lost. 

 

I'm one of those commies who wants gun registration.  But I don't want a system where the Chief can veto any gun permit for whatever reason he wants.  just invites too much cronyism. 

[mistertim]

That's a fair point, Larry. What would your solution be? Not being a smartass, I'm honestly asking your opinion.

[Larry]

Actually, I think that when it comes to the concealed carry permits which everybody seems to be going to, I think the existing system seems to be about right. 

 

Granted, I've never gone through the process.  So my impressions may be wrong.  But I've said for some time that I think getting a gun should be similar to getting a driver's license.  Take a class.  Pass a written test, to prove that you know the laws.  I wouldn't have a problem with a marksmanship requirement.  (A "behind the wheel" test.)  Get your ID.  Register your gun when you buy or sell it.  I could see a requirement to carry liability insurance. 

 

And the existing system seems rather close to that. 

 

I think we can all agree that getting a Driver's License is not an exceedingly onerous hurdle to clear.  Lord knows some real morons seem to be able to get them. 

[PokerPacker]

There's still the problem of putting that kind of restriction on a constitutional right. Want to bring back the Literacy Test? How about a free-speech license? Maybe apply to have a "no unwarranted searches" license where you have to prove you're unlikely to own contraband.

[tshile]

Eh, I think that's a bit conspiracy theory, tshile.

I'm just trying to give the people that decided to do this things way - if the background check doesn't come back in 3 days, it should be the discretion of the seller whether to sell - the benefit of the doubt.

 

But we live in a time where the president has suspended federal drug laws to allow for the industrialization of marijuana; where people are deciding to not enforce immigration laws. I have no problem thinking this would be a way for gun control enthusiasts to get their way. I'd love to think otherwise, but we've just seen too much bs.

[Larry]

There's still the problem of putting that kind of restriction on a constitutional right. Want to bring back the Literacy Test? How about a free-speech license? Maybe apply to have a "no unwarranted searches" license where you have to prove you're unlikely to own contraband.

 

Now, how did I know that the notion that "permission to walk the streets packing heat should be about as hard to get as a driver's license" would be met with "But that's too hard!"? 

 

[PokerPacker]

Now, how did I know that the notion that "permission to walk the streets packing heat should be about as hard to get as a driver's license" would be met with "But that's too hard!"? 

 

I'm just saying that it sets a precedent that constitutional rights are something that can be licensed. 'Course I'm also big on privacy and shutting the government out from my personal information such as what guns I own.

[Larry]

I'm just saying that it sets a precedent that constitutional rights are something that can be licensed. 'Course I'm also big on privacy and shutting the government out from my personal information such as what guns I own.

 

Constitutional rights can be restricted.  There isn't a single one that isn't. 

 

The question isn't "can Constitutional rights be restricted?".  That question was answered 200 years ago. 

 

The question "Is this a reasonable restriction?" 

 

Now, if you want to tell me that you think having restrictions on guns that are as easy to meet as a driver's license is unreasonable, then I think that's something that can be debated.  ("Reasonable", by it's very nature, is a matter of opinion.  It can be debated, but there is no absolute right or wrong.) 

 

But let's drop the whole "if you do that, then you're creating the first ever restriction of a constitutional right" BS. 

[Redskins3D]

 

 

Now, if you want to tell me that you think having restrictions on guns that are as easy to meet as a driver's license is unreasonable, t 

 

 

Tell me more about how easy it is to get a driver's license  

[tshile]

i'll gladly agree to a license to own/carry a gun if it comes with voter id.

 

i'm willing to agree to more if you will require a test to vote.

[twa]

let the negotiations begin 

[pjfootballer]

I live near Charlotte on the NC/SC border. I'll have to say, since this has gone down and all the news about the flag coming down at the statehouse, I've seen an increase in Confederate flags the last two weeks. They poked the hornets nest.

[Redskins3D]

I live near Charlotte on the NC/SC border. I'll have to say, since this has gone down and all the news about the flag coming down at the statehouse, I've seen an increase in Confederate flags the last two weeks. They poked the hornets nest.

 

Same here. I went from never seeing it to it being all over the place. 

[Jumbo]

I<edit>. They poked the hornets nest.

 

 

For many folks, a better flying insect analogy might be "they kicked the dead carcass (or stinky pile of ****) and now the flies are buzzing all about."

[The 12th Commandment]

No good American has a problem with a private citizen flying their flag.  That's their right, and I find it helpful for pigeon hole purposes.  The government is a whole different issue.

[visionary]

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/in-oklahoma-protesters-greet-obama-with-confederate-flags-120207.html#ixzz3g1etFj1n

In Oklahoma, protesters greet Obama with Confederate flags

 

Confederate battle flags greeted President Barack Obama as he arrived here for an overnight stay on Wednesday.

 

Across the street from his hotel in downtown Oklahoma City, as many as 10 people waved the flags as his motorcade arrived. The group stood among a larger group of demonstrators, many of there to support the president, who is in town ahead of a visit to a federal prison on Thursday as part of his week-long push on criminal justice issues.
Story Continued Below

 

According to local news organizations, a man who calls himself the “black rebel” named Andrew Duncomb organized the Confederate flag demonstration. He also put together a similar protest on Saturday at the Oklahoma State Capitol – just a day after South Carolina removed its contested flag from the State Capitol grounds. His Facebook page features photos from that rally.

[Mr. Sinister]

Moron

[visionary]

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/7/16/muslim-fundraiser-for-black-churches-nears-100k.html?utm_content=bylines&utm_campaign=ajam&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=SocialFlow

Muslim fundraiser for burned black churches close to $100,000 goal

 

A coalition of U.S. Muslim groups behind a fundraiser to rebuild black churches targeted with arson in the aftermath of the Charleston, South Carolina shooting say they are nearing their goal of raising $100,000.

 

The fundraiser launched on July 2 has raised nearly $90,000 and ends on Eid — the holiday celebrating the end of Ramadan, a Muslim holy month of fasting — at 3:45 a.m. Friday morning, organizers said.

 

Their initial goal was to raise $10,000 for the churches. But after the fundraiser went viral, the group increased that target to $100,000.

 

Although some questioned what Muslims were doing raising money for Christian churches, one of the organizers, Namira Islam, executive director of MuslimARC — a Muslim anti-racism group — said the impetus to help came largely because of the racist nature of the attacks. UmmahWide, a Muslim digital media startup, and the Arab American Association of New York, a group aimed at empowering Arab Americans, also helped organize the fundraiser.

 

The church burnings across the South occurred in the weeks following the killing of nine African Americans in a Charleston church by a self-professed white supremacist.

[DCranon21]

 

Dylann Roof indicted on federal hate crime charges in Charleston church shooting

 

A grand jury on Wednesday afternoon indicted Dylann Roof on 33 alleged federal law violations, including hate crimes and religious obstructions that would expose him to the death penalty, a move that made the 21-year-old man a defendant in one of the deadliest racially motivated attacks since the civil rights era.

 

Roof, who is white, is accused of fatally shooting nine black worshippers during a June 17 Bible study at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in downtown Charleston.

That night, authorities first stated that the shooting would be considered a hate crime. The Justice Department’s Civil Rights Division also sent FBI agents into the field to investigate the possible motive for what was thought to be South Carolina’s worst racial hate crime in history.

 

But the indictment by a federal grand jury in Columbia brings that aspect of the crime that has sparked conversations about racism nationwide into the courtroom for the first time.

 

U.S. Attorney General Loretta Lynch said Wednesday afternoon during a news conference in Washington that Roof sought out his victims because of their race and targeted their church because of its historic significance.

“Roof conceived his goal of increasing racial tensions and seeking retribution for perceived wrongs that he believed African-Americans have committed against white people,” Lynch said. “To carry out these twin goals of fanning racial flames and exacting revenge, Roof further decided to seek out and murder African-Americans

because of their race.

 

“Racially motivated violence such as this is the original domesticated terrorism.”

 

http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20150722/PC16/150729789

[Larry]

I feel kinda like I did with the Oklahoma City bombing. Part of me would rather see the guy tried in the county courthouse, for plain old murder.

Leave his motive and his manifesto and all that crap outside the courthouse. Try him for killing people, and if he wants to talk about why, then let him rant. (And don't give it any attention).

[Slateman]

I feel kinda like I did with the Oklahoma City bombing. Part of me would rather see the guy tried in the county courthouse, for plain old murder.

Leave his motive and his manifesto and all that crap outside the courthouse. Try him for killing people, and if he wants to talk about why, then let him rant. (And don't give it any attention).

Ah but then we would miss all the political grandstanding that will take place.

[PokerPacker]

I feel kinda like I did with the Oklahoma City bombing. Part of me would rather see the guy tried in the county courthouse, for plain old murder.

Leave his motive and his manifesto and all that crap outside the courthouse. Try him for killing people, and if he wants to talk about why, then let him rant. (And don't give it any attention).

The very concept of "hate crime" pisses me off; it's legislating thought. Try him for the actions committed, not the thoughts that lead to the actions.