The Official "Marvel" Thread (Movies,Comics etc)

[Momma There Goes That Man]

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Kind of wondering where Nebula is in this story line.  She was with Tony on Titan post-snap.

 

Doesn't she have a ship that she obviously took after escaping to get to Titan? That's how Tony gets back. 

 

Unless the ship was destroyed when Thanos was tossing moons at people

 

1 minute ago, Mr. Sinister said:

Who is Ronin???

 

I had the same question and deduced that it's what they are calling Hawkeye for some reason. 

Edited December 7, 2018 by Momma There Goes That Man

[Xameil]

Oooooo...I confused Ronan with Ronin...

[Going Commando]

Ronin is from the New Avengers run after the resolution of the House of M storyline.  After Hawkeye got resurrected, Kate Bishop had assumed the Hawkeye identity so Barton became Ronin instead.  Basically had ninja powers.  The fact that he's in this movie might mean they use some of the themes from Dark Reign.

 

The again, now that they're introducing Skrulls and have the rights to Spider-Man to work with, they might save Dark Reign for later.

[Mr. Sinister]

Leave it to McQueen to have the answers you need. Thanks. Was getting ready to start yelling at y'all for making me feel dumb/excluded

[justice98]

It was basically revealed that Hawkeye became Ronin way back before Infinity War came out, because he was on set in the Ronin outfit.  That was probably a year/year and a half ago.  So it was pretty much assumed way back then that something happened to his family and that drove him off on this other darker path.  

 

The only thing people didnt know was that he wasnt gonna be in IW at all.  I remember there was speculation that his family dusting might be a post credits scene in IW, but that didnt happen.  

 

I just dont think they waited until now to give him some meaty storyline.  I think they couldnt find a way to make him useful in IW, they devised this plan about his family, and saved it for Endgame.  But in the end, he'll get treated like he always does. 

Edited December 7, 2018 by justice98

[Momma There Goes That Man]

6 minutes ago, justice98 said:

It was basically revealed that Hawkeye became Ronin way back before Infinity War came out, because he was on set in the Ronin outfit.  That was probably a year/year and a half ago.  So it was pretty much assumed way back then that something happened to his family and that drove him off on this other darker path.  

 

Stayed away from any and all spoilers so had no idea. Somebody posted some Endgame set stuff above and immediately skipped it. 

 

6 minutes ago, justice98 said:

I just dont think they waited until now to give him some meaty storyline.  I think they couldnt find a way to make him useful in IW, they devised this plan about his family, and saved it for Endgame.  But in the end, he'll get treated like he always does. 

 

Seems like they planned it pretty well. He was already retiring when we got to spend time at his house and with his family in Ultron. He comes back for Civil War and was jailed. It was a perfect setup to him keeping his distance until he had to due to the loss of his family 

[Mr. Sinister]

Yeah, same here.  I stay out of a ton of discussions about various shows and movies because it seems impossible to avoid spoilers, and at this point I'm like a spoiler Nazi.

 

 

[Going Commando]

2 hours ago, Mr. Sinister said:

Leave it to McQueen to have the answers you need. Thanks. Was getting ready to start yelling at y'all for making me feel dumb/excluded

 

It was a good old 2000's Brian Michael Bendis era character and story line.  Basically they'd given the Hawkeye persona to Kate Bishop in the Young Avengers and they didn't need a second archer when they resurrected Hawkeye.  It's not the first time he abandoned the Hawkeye persona for another one.  Back in the original run of the Avengers in the 60's, Hank Pym stopped being able to grow big because the strain of it was giving him schizophrenia or something like that.  So Hawkeye (wanting some real powers) drank this science potion Pym had made that gave him the powers of Giant Man and he assumed the Goliath mantle.

 

Anyway the Ronin mantle was a revenge ninja that was originally created as an idea for Matt Murdock but Bendis couldn't use it on Murdock for some reason.  So instead they gave it to Echo.  When they decided to make Clint Barton a member of the New Avengers, they gave the mantle to him instead because he needed something different.  Pretty sure he was Ronin through the whole New Avengers volume one run.

 

That wasn't my favorite era of comics nor of Hawkeye.  My favorite Hawkeye era is probably his solo run from the 80's.  That's when he was best established as the every man Avenger.  It feels kind of like some of those ideas and themes they made for Hawkeye they ended up giving to Spider-Man in the MCU films.  I guess they were too good to use on a third tier character in the MCU.

[Going Commando]

I share Justice's frustration with the way Hawkeye has been used and portrayed in the MCU.  Hawkeye, Ant-Man, and Wasp were my three favorite Avengers characters and those three plus Quicksilver are the ones that I feel the MCU changed the most from comic book to screen.  Marvel Studios has done such great work and made so many great choices, but Hawkeye is a big one that they've gotten wrong.  They cannibalized the Hank Pym character to give to Iron Man and then jumped straight to Scott Lang--a big decision which I feel was ultimately the right one.  And they cannibalized Janet Van Dyne's whole personality to give to Scarlett Johansson, a decision which I'm OK with because she plays the role so well.

 

But giving all of the good Hawkeye stuff to Peter Parker and Scott Lang and Sam Wilson basically left Hawkeye with nothing.  Hawkeye was Captain America's closest and most loyal friend in the original run of the Avengers and his first real protege after Bucky.  That relationship went to Wilson instead, which meant they couldn't use him in Winter Soldier. 

 

Then they cut off any romantic connection between Hawkeye and Black Widow--which I was fine with because their relationship was never that well fleshed out in the comics--but there went that opportunity to use Hawkeye. 

 

But then they wasted Mockingbird by sticking her in Agents of SHIELD and giving her zero connection to Clint Barton.  It's a corny show to me, and the girl they got to play her is not that good an actress.

 

And then they also gave up the chance to do any Cap's Kooky Quartet story lines by immediately killing Quicksilver.  That was a major Hawkeye era.  It was also one of my favorite Avengers rosters.  It was a bit of a novelty because they were so underpowered and dysfunctional.  That was the Fantastic Four inspired roster and Hawkeye was the Ben Grimm of that team.

 

You don't get this at all from the films, but Hawkeye was the dominant personality in the Avengers during the first 100 or so issues.  He was the steadiest member and his personality pushed a lot of the action and he was the opportunity for Stan Lee and the writers who followed him to tell their jokes.  He was a main figure in the Kooky Quartet, and then after Steve Rogers and the twins left, he stuck around to keep the team alive with Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne.  This was my favorite configuration of the team, where they'd rotate the fourth member between an interesting group that included the likes of Black Panther, Hercules, Vision, etc.  Kept things fresh while also keeping the backbone of the team in tact.

 

Hawkeye was miscast and that casting mistake stunted the character in the MCU IMO.  Jeremy Renner is a fabulous actor but he plays intense characters much better.  Whimsical, buffoonish, and relatable is not really his thing.  They gave all of that to Paul Rudd instead, sans the hot-headed aggressiveness.  Makes sense because Paul Rudd is tremendously funny and likable.  But again, now Hawkeye is left with nothing.

[Mr. Sinister]

Oh, I can see it now 😂.

 

Get your popcorn ready for McQueen's epic hot take after the first iteration of MCU ends this spring 

Edited December 7, 2018 by Mr. Sinister

[Chachie]

35 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Hawkeye was miscast and that casting mistake stunted the character in the MCU IMO.  Jeremy Renner is a fabulous actor but he plays intense characters much better.  Whimsical, buffoonish, and relatable is not really his thing.  They gave all of that to Paul Rudd instead, sans the hot-headed aggressiveness.  Makes sense because Paul Rudd is tremendously funny and likable.  But again, now Hawkeye is left with nothing.

 

 

Good stuff, McQueen. If you care to take the time, I'm curious about your opinion of how the MCU re-did Vision's origin from it's original version of having his conscious mind being created from Simon Williams, aka Wonder Man. In fact, your take on the Wonder Man character would be cool to hear also.

[Renegade7]

1 hour ago, Mr. Sinister said:

Oh, I can see it now 😂.

 

Get your popcorn ready for McQueen's epic hot take after the first iteration of MCU ends this spring 

 

Only thing that will be missing is APA format 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

3 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Then they cut off any romantic connection between Hawkeye and Black Widow--which I was fine with because their relationship was never that well fleshed out in the comics--but there went that opportunity to use Hawkeye. 

 

Didnt stop them from turning around and making a Black Widow/Banner romance at of nowhere. I always liked the Hawkeye/Widow stuff as they were the only regular people in the group and it would make sense for them to gravitate toward each other. 

 

 

3 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

But giving all of the good Hawkeye stuff to Peter Parker and Scott Lang and Sam Wilson basically left Hawkeye with nothing.  Hawkeye was Captain America's closest and most loyal friend in the original run of the Avengers and his first real protege after Bucky.  That relationship went to Wilson instead, which meant they couldn't use him in Winter Soldier.

 

Wilson/falcon are absolutely useless in this series. They don’t even have to bring him back. Would much rather have had a Hawkeye/Cap dynamic in TWS over Wilson. Ugh 

[Gamebreaker]

On 12/7/2018 at 9:12 AM, Mr. Sinister said:

Gotta be Marvel

 

Why? Marvel seems like she's gonna be the main star going forward. Carol Danvers meeting Stark knocks that out of the way early, in order to pass the torch gracefulky throughout the movie (maybe?)

 

I agree. I think Tony survives the movie, but retires and passes leadership of the Avengers to Captain Marvel. And she'll prove to him she's capable of leading in this movie. How the audience accepts that is anyone's guess. 

 

I still believe Steve Rogers dies using the gauntlet to restore life to half the galaxy. His body likely can't handle the power. Think what happened to Thanos' hand, but like, his entire body. 

[Gamebreaker]

I also agree with Barton's run as Ronin in New Avengers, but I'm a fan of that run regardless. Barton had to take a backseat to some real heavy hitting solo heroes in that book. Spider-Man first decided to be an Avenger and struggled with opening up with his secret identity. Wolverine became an Avenger. Daredevil was there. Spider-Woman was awesome. The Skrulls were exposed first there. Their rebellion against Osborn's Dark Avengers as fugitives was great. 

[Metalhead]

From the trailer Nebula and Tony are both on the Milano. Nebula's little spacecraft was demolished when she entered the Titan scene and rammed Thanos.

 

I want to mention the last scene of the Endgame trailer. It actually is a recording/old message, thus the reason why Cap asks the question. In the top left of the screen, the video says either "1983:Archive" or "1993:Archive". If you remember from the first Ant-Man movie, Avengers HQ was originally a Stark Industries complex. Scott got spit out of the quantam realm into 1983/93 and went to the only Avengers place he knew of...he just doesn't know what year it is.

 

[88Comrade2000]

There maybe hope for those cancelled Marvel Netflix shows after all.

 

Daredevil and Marvel's other axed Netflix shows could be revived on Disney streaming service

[Larry]

Is Once Upon a Deadpool actually a new movie?  Or is it just Deadpool 2 with a couple extra jokes?  

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

6 minutes ago, Larry said:

Is Once Upon a Deadpool actually a new movie?  Or is it just Deadpool 2 with a couple extra jokes?  

 

It's Deadpool 2 that has been edited to PG-13.  They replaced the really bad scenes and made it into a spoof of The Princess Bride, with Deadpool reading to an adult Fred Savage and narrating the story.

[Going Commando]

On 12/7/2018 at 4:42 PM, Chachie said:

Good stuff, McQueen. If you care to take the time, I'm curious about your opinion of how the MCU re-did Vision's origin from it's original version of having his conscious mind being created from Simon Williams, aka Wonder Man. In fact, your take on the Wonder Man character would be cool to hear also.

 

Wups, just now saw that you asked this.  My take on Wonder Man and Vision is probably not a popular one, but I didn't really like them in the comics.  When I was a kid, I thought Vision was fascinating, and as an idea, he's pretty great.  But when I read the first 100 issues of the Avengers run a couple of years ago, I found the Vision character himself to be the most tedious and uninteresting member of the roster.  It felt like the writers didn't really know what to do with him.  Frankly, I didn't see a lot of continuity of personality and character traits from Simon Williams to him.  They gave him a pretty standard flat robot personality and made him repeat an annoying description of what he was and the nature of his powers every time he used them.

 

I also didn't get the early romance with Scarlet Witch at all.  Felt like that was a completely artificial device to introduce the concept of love leading to the emergence of humanity in a machine.  Their relationship didn't feel real.  They had made some previous abortive attempts to give Wanda a love interest that I felt were actually more interesting potential avenues to explore--she had a girlish crush on Steve Rogers (a tortured, celibate monkish character during this run) and there was a potentially funny unwanted suitor dynamic with Hawkeye early on.  That could have been fun because of how frequently Hawkeye and Quicksilver bickered with each other.  I think there was even a minute where Hercules was sort of casually taken with her beauty.

 

Eventually they figured Vision out and made him much more interesting and made his relationship with Wanda work, but that wasn't in the initial Silver Age run.  That took a more nuanced Bronze Age perspective to achieve.  Also the more complex Bronze Age art really helped make Vision's character more interesting and appealing.  He's kind of strange and monochromatic in the Sal Buscema days of Avengers.  Once Neil Adams started drawing the book in 1971, the aesthetic quality of the series kind of took a quantum leap forward and Vision got more impressive looking.

 

As far as the Simon Williams character goes, I don't really remember him that well from that early run.  I think I recall he was an industrial competitor of Tony Stark and that, in a series of unfortunate misunderstandings, he was ruined by Stark and flew off into villainy before Tony could make things right.  He was a tragic character that got in way over his head working with the Enchantress and Baron Zemo, before he eventually realizes he doesn't belong with them and does a face turn and sacrifices himself to save the Avengers.  AFAIK, he wasn't revived until much later in the run, so I don't really know how his character developed.

 

i think the connection between Williams and Vision was nebulous and superficial.  It didn't seem like there was a real plan for how to connect the two characters in a meaningful way.  And I think Marvel Studios definitely did the right thing in dropping Simon Williams from the origin of Vision in the MCU.

 

From a storytelling perspective, I think Age of Ultron was note perfect.  It's one of my favorite movies in the canon.  The way Vision is introduced in that film is such a great moment.  It makes Act Three so fun and interesting.  And the final dialogue between Ultron and Vision is one of the best exchanges in the MCU.  Such a beautiful way to resolve an epic Act Three action set piece and climax.  I don't think they could have written it better.  It's Vision's finest moment.

 

I think they got the key elements of Vision's origin right in that movie.  The main thing we need to understand is that he is Ultron's attempt to perfect his evolution, but from that unnatural birth, we get something pure.  It's a great foil to the act of Ultron's own creation, which was sinister, feral, and a direct product of Tony's isolating fear.  IMO, the decision to use Jarvis as the blueprint of his personality is a lot better than using Simon Williams would have been.

 

-- Williams hadn't been previously introduced.  It would have meant creating a fairly significant throwaway character just to get to Vision, which would have felt unnecessary and convoluted and sent the film down a much less interesting Act One and Act Two rabbit hole.  I'm don't think it would have been any good at all to put off introducing Wanda, Pietro, and Ultron, which is what you probably would have had to do in order to introduce Simon Williams first.

-- Jarvis had been a presence in the films since Iron Man.  Having him seemingly destroyed early in Act One was distressing and got the audience to sympathize with a disembodied AI voice.  Not an easy feat.  Then having him triumphantly roar back to life to foil Ultron's plan in the early Act Three reveal was just great dramatic story telling.

-- Paul Bettany has an amazing voice and he is a fantastic performer.  His portrayal is calming and powerful and inspires pathos.  The decision to portray Vision as an innocent, Commander Data-like Christly robot was very effective.  Much more effective than the character's initial portrayal in the comics.  He immediately had his own thematic place on a team with such a large roster of big personalities.

-- His newborn-like innocence is a nice, ready explanation to have on hand when they need to reason why such an overpowered character doesn't constantly wreck shop and ruin the dramatic tension of the arcs or their films and the less powerful characters within them.

 

So I think Whedon crushed it.  He's a master screenwriter.  Like it or not, Data is the definitive on screen portrayal of the heroic Android character type, and Whedon used it to make Vision feel familiar and likeable and wise without having to devote very much screen time to his character--a big challenge in writing that kind of ensemble movie.  It worked really well and I'm not sure they could have done his origin better.

[Going Commando]

On 12/7/2018 at 7:17 PM, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

Didnt stop them from turning around and making a Black Widow/Banner romance at of nowhere. I always liked the Hawkeye/Widow stuff as they were the only regular people in the group and it would make sense for them to gravitate toward each other.

 

Yeah that Banner/Widow romance really did come out of nowhere.  It was strange.  And it's not hard to notice that despite all of her flirtations with Tony, Banner, and Hawkeye, Chris Evans and Johansson are the real ones with massive on screen chemistry.  She makes Winter Soldier so much better, but that could have still been an amazing movie without using her in that role.

 

I don't mind the platonic relationship between Hawkeye and Widow.   It has a nice comrade in arms dynamic that paints a picture of how they came up in SHIELD together.  I always liked Mockingbird, and I kind of wish they had saved her and Hawkeye for a romance to be portrayed down the road.  Perhaps in a Hawkeye and Black Widow movie.  That could have been a really cool spy thriller type film if they had cast the Hawkeye role a little better.

 

In retrospect, it feels a bit like Winter Soldier was their chance at creating that brilliant Hawkeye and Widow movie, and that once again a great potential Hawkeye story line/trait was cannibalized to serve a different character.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

On 12/10/2018 at 4:57 PM, Gamebreaker said:

I still believe Steve Rogers dies using the gauntlet to restore life to half the galaxy. His body likely can't handle the power. Think what happened to Thanos' hand, but like, his entire body. 

 

Cap is way too overpowered in this universe to die. Also, what happened to Thanos' hand?

[Going Commando]

On 12/7/2018 at 7:17 PM, Momma There Goes That Man said:

Wilson/falcon are absolutely useless in this series. They don’t even have to bring him back. Would much rather have had a Hawkeye/Cap dynamic in TWS over Wilson. Ugh 

 

I agree and disagree with you here.  I like Wilson because I really like Anthony Mackie.  He's a charismatic glue man for the cast.  And I think he makes a lot of sense as a friend and stabilizing presence for Bucky and Rogers.  Is he necessary?  No.  But I do think he improves the scenes he's in.

 

But I also don't think you're wrong that using Hawkeye in his place in TWS could have been better.  It certainly would have made the Hawkeye character a lot stronger.

 

And there is definitely too much overlap between the Rhodey and Sam Wilson characters.  It's weakened both of them as a result.

 

If I could do the canon over, I would cast Mackie as War Machine, get rid of the Sam Wilson character, and use Hawkeye in the role instead.  And I probably would explore the Black Widow/Captain America on screen chemistry a little more and perhaps dump the Agent 13 character and use Mockingbird instead.

[StillUnknown]

Into the Spiderverse may be my favorite movie of the year, any genre

[Gamebreaker]

On 12/18/2018 at 3:35 PM, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

Cap is way too overpowered in this universe to die. Also, what happened to Thanos' hand?

 

Cap is like the ultimate human, but still ultimately human. Star lord, being half alien, was able to barely hold just one stone. I think they set this up on purpose to make sense of Steve's sacrifice. 

 

Thanos' hand was all burned up and damaged after he snapped half the universe.