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Skinsinparadise

Skinsinparadise

Posted
Posted

 

Mke Mayock said he's not sure there's a first round safety in this class. That's interesting.

 

 

Should throw some cold water on the Landon Collins, SS, talk.

 

 

I trust Mayock over Kiper.  Kiper though sees it differently, I can't post the link because its insider ESPN access stuff but he said Collins is worthy of a top 10 pick and is in the class of Earl Thomas.   Personally, though no way I'd touch a SS at #5.    Laron Landry Part 2?

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zeebs

zeebs

Posted
Posted

With the proper acquisition of talent, coaching doesn't really matter as it is taken out of the equation.  So, you win 6 games instead of 3 or 4 with better coaching.  So, you get to the playoffs, but loose in the first round every year because of good coaching.  Without a talented QB, Arizona sucked in the playoffs despite great coaching this year.

 

Coaching isn't taken out of the equation at all.  They have the utmost responsiblilty for developing draftees (and even some FAs) to reaching their potential.  

 

 

Without a talented QB, Arizona sucked in the playoffs despite great coaching this year.

 

OK, and you can also argue that the Cowboys had a fantastic season defensively despite the complete lack of talent.  Everyone said at the start of the season that they would be one of the worst defensive teams in the NFL.  Want to know the reason why? Coaching.  

Want to know how teams like Seattle are able to develop UDFAs into long time starters?  Coaching.  They were not some magically hidden 1st round talent that no other 31 teams noticed.  

 

Simply picking the right talent means jack squat if you don't have the right coaches to develop them.

 

 

Even our own new GM, said you need enough red players and a few top players along with quality players to win in this league.  Of course you want quality coaching to go along, but we have had enough good coaching come here the last 20 years and how did that go.  We did not properly acquire talent during that same time period.

 

Pretty sure we would have the exact same 20-year embarrassment if we had drafted "the best talent" out there and Raheem Morris was the HC.   

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HapHaszard

HapHaszard

Posted
Posted

David Elfin ‏@davidelfin 39s39 seconds ago

Brian Baker might've been #Redskins' top assistant coach in '14. So naturally new DCoord Joe Barry is getting rid of him. Nice way 2 start.


Paul R. Davis ‏@PaulRDavis1 2h2 hours ago Christiansburg, VA

If it wasn't for Alfred Morris replacing McCoy, I wouldn't even be watching the Pro Bowl this weekend. #redskins #httr


Aldrick Robinson ‏@AldrickRobinson 38m38 minutes ago

Nightmares of losing everything boost my adrenalin ..


Emmanual Benton ‏@Manny_PPI 40m40 minutes ago

Mke Mayock said he's not sure there's a first round safety in this class. That's interesting.

 
 
 

Pro Football Focus ‏@PFF 1h1 hour ago

The 2015 NFL Free Agent Tracker is up and running with grades & snaps counts for all free agents https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2015/01/01/2015-free-agency-tracker/ …

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Mr. Sinister

Mr. Sinister

Posted
Posted

I mean, I wasnt a fan of the release of Baker, but lets be realistic... Do we really expect a guy with a different scheme to come in here and be like "Hello boys, glad to be working with you all"? No, hes going to be bringing in his guys, and will probably be spending extra time wjth the linebackers

I think Elfin is being a little unfair

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Skinsinparadise

Skinsinparadise

Posted
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Duke OG Laken Tomlinson said the toughest defensive linemen he's faced this week was Danny Shelton. Said Carl Davis was No. 2. #SeniorBowl


 


 Pro Football Rumors and 92 others follow


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DogofWar1

DogofWar1

Posted
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Duke OG Laken Tomlinson said the toughest defensive linemen he's faced this week was Danny Shelton. Said Carl Davis was No. 2. #SeniorBowl

 

 Pro Football Rumors and 92 others follow

 

 

Backup plan if we miss Shelton or go Ray/Gregory/Williams?

 

6th best DT on Scout, Inc. (53 overall), 8th best DT on CBS/NFLDraftScout (81 overall).

 

I would not mind going OLB (Ray), then NT/FS or FS/NT.

 

I wonder if we try and convert Murphy to DE in that case.  I know, I know, converting always sounds better in theory than in practice, but he's at 260 right now.  15-20 pounds more and he's at the low end of the 3-4 DE weight, could work well in 1-gap attacking defense if he uses his moveset from college to get around bigger slower guards and tackles.

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Rufus T Firefly

Rufus T Firefly

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Backup plan if we miss Shelton or go Ray/Gregory/Williams?

 

6th best DT on Scout, Inc. (53 overall), 8th best DT on CBS/NFLDraftScout (81 overall).

 

I would not mind going OLB (Ray), then NT/FS or FS/NT.

 

I wonder if we try and convert Murphy to DE in that case.  I know, I know, converting always sounds better in theory than in practice, but he's at 260 right now.  15-20 pounds more and he's at the low end of the 3-4 DE weight, could work well in 1-gap attacking defense if he uses his moveset from college to get around bigger slower guards and tackles.

I don't think there's been enough attention for Davis or Malcolm Brown at DT/NT.

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Skinsinparadise

Skinsinparadise

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Posted

Backup plan if we miss Shelton or go Ray/Gregory/Williams?

 

6th best DT on Scout, Inc. (53 overall), 8th best DT on CBS/NFLDraftScout (81 overall).

 

I would not mind going OLB (Ray), then NT/FS or FS/NT.

 

I wonder if we try and convert Murphy to DE in that case.  I know, I know, converting always sounds better in theory than in practice, but he's at 260 right now.  15-20 pounds more and he's at the low end of the 3-4 DE weight, could work well in 1-gap attacking defense if he uses his moveset from college to get around bigger slower guards and tackles.

 

I figure you can get Davis by trading down, late first, maybe there early 2nd?  Arguably not as sexy a pick as Donald partly because of Davis' lack of career sacks.  He definitely though is garnering serious attention at the Senior Bowl. 

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Fred Jones

Fred Jones

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Coaching isn't taken out of the equation at all.  They have the utmost responsiblilty for developing draftees (and even some FAs) to reaching their potential.  

 

OK, and you can also argue that the Cowboys had a fantastic season defensively despite the complete lack of talent.  Everyone said at the start of the season that they would be one of the worst defensive teams in the NFL.  Want to know the reason why? Coaching.  

Want to know how teams like Seattle are able to develop UDFAs into long time starters?  Coaching.  They were not some magically hidden 1st round talent that no other 31 teams noticed.  

 

Simply picking the right talent means jack squat if you don't have the right coaches to develop them.

 

Pretty sure we would have the exact same 20-year embarrassment if we had drafted "the best talent" out there and Raheem Morris was the HC.   

Since you are clearly on the coaching is better then talent bandwagon, if you take Seattle coaches and put them on the skins this past season, we don't magically make the playoffs.  Our offensive line doesn't magically become better.  Our safeties don't turn into Seattle's safeties.  Heck those coaches would probably have started cutting some of our players.

 

Look at all the SB winning coordinators that have failed when they left a "talented team".  Did they suddenly forget how to coach when they went to a team that does not understand how to acquire talent.

 

I hope and hope and hope SM starts bringing in talent because he will prove my point.  Do we have SB winning caliber coaches on our staff currently?  Many on here are ready to jump ship with the current choices.  But, give them a franchise QB surrounded by an Oline as talented as the pukes and a quality defense full of fresh talent, and I bet our current coaches can take a team into the playoffs.  Of course they coach them up, of course they develop them, but so does every other NFL coach.  But, you can't coach stupid, can't coach slow, can't coach low football IQ, can't coach heart, can't coach work ethic, etc.  Maybe in your world you can, but not in mine.

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Aireskoi

Aireskoi

Posted
Posted

There's a lot of coaching vs. talent talk in this thread, so I will post something i put together for another one.

 

Some "big name" DC's that have improved a defense in the 1st year.

 

I can't imagine they all got new talent to work with, I bet they coached the players that the last guy failed with for the most part:

 

"2009 Bears were the 17th yards, 24th points ranked defense, Rod Marinelli shows in 2010 and they are the 9th yards, and 5th points his 1st season.

 

Rod also did a nice job in Dallas this year, even with lots of injuries, and they gave him a 3 year deal.  19th yards, 15th points improved from 32nd yards and 26th points in 2013

 

Wade Phillips to Houston in 2011.  29th points in 2010, 30th in yards 2010.  To 2nd in yards, 4th in points 2011 

 

Jack Del Rio to Denver in 2012. 20th yards and 24th points in 2011.  To 2nd yards and 4th in points in 2012.

 

Jim Schwartz to Buffalo, 2014 10th yards and 20th points in 2013.  To 29th yards and 4th points in 2014.  (mixed results)

 

Romeo Crennel - Defense went from 30th yards and 29th points in 2009.  To 14th yards and 11th points in 2010."

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TD Riggo

TD Riggo

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It still astounds me how people actually had an expectation for Gruden to do well his first year taking over a 3-13 team with no 1st round pick + recovering from cap penalty hell... especially considering the Redskins still finished #13 in offense using 3 different QBs. 

 

 

I expected to see improvement from the debacle of the last Shanahan season. What we got was just one more lousy win and another debacle of even greater proportion, and he blew up our entire quarterback position after a measly 7 weeks.

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bobisimo

bobisimo

Posted
Posted

I made this comment about coaching in a different thread ... does everyone remember how dreadful the 2003 offensive line was a line that featured Jon Jansen, Randy Thomas, Chis Samuels and Derrick Dockery ... ...... coaching has no effect right ? 

 

Dreadful? Considering we had two second-year QBs playing, and they only absorbed 39 sacks for the season... I think we'd have been thrilled with that this year.

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TSO

TSO

Posted
Posted

There's a lot of coaching vs. talent talk in this thread, so I will post something i put together for another one.

 

Some "big name" DC's that have improved a defense in the 1st year.

 

I can't imagine they all got new talent to work with, I bet they coached the players that the last guy failed with for the most part:

 

"2009 Bears were the 17th yards, 24th points ranked defense, Rod Marinelli shows in 2010 and they are the 9th yards, and 5th points his 1st season.

 

Rod also did a nice job in Dallas this year, even with lots of injuries, and they gave him a 3 year deal.  19th yards, 15th points improved from 32nd yards and 26th points in 2013

 

Wade Phillips to Houston in 2011.  29th points in 2010, 30th in yards 2010.  To 2nd in yards, 4th in points 2011 

 

Jack Del Rio to Denver in 2012. 20th yards and 24th points in 2011.  To 2nd yards and 4th in points in 2012.

 

Jim Schwartz to Buffalo, 2014 10th yards and 20th points in 2013.  To 29th yards and 4th points in 2014.  (mixed results)

 

Romeo Crennel - Defense went from 30th yards and 29th points in 2009.  To 14th yards and 11th points in 2010."

 

Good points, but for me I don't see how any of this discredits my position on the matter (individual talent vs. collective/cohesive talent) that I posted on in this thread here.

 

Just look at some examples of the infusion of talent and/or personnel moves in general in some of those instances at the same time as those coaches took over: 

 

2010 Rod Marinelli promoted to DC

Signed DE Julius Peppers

Signed CB Tim Jennings

Signed LB Nick Roach

Signed DE Mark Anderson

Drafted/Signed S Major Wright

Traded S Kevin Payne to St. Louis for an undisclosed 2011 draft pick

 

It should also be noted that Marinelli was with the team previous to being given the DC title, so he knew the personnel well. 

 

Wade Phillips to Houston DC in 2011

Signed DT Shaun Cody

Drafted/Signed JJ Watt

Signed CB Johnathan Joseph

 

Watt alone there can be considered enough... but, really, you've got to give Wade massive credit for his work turning around that Defense. Would've liked to see him hired over Barry for sure. But, hey, it's also telling that he has yet to get a job elsewhere. We'll see, I guess. 

 

Jack Del Rio to Broncos DC 2012

Signed S Mike Adams

Signed LB Joe Mays

Signed LB Wesley Woodyard

Signed CB Tracy Porter

Drafted/Signed DE Derek Wolfe

Drafted/Signed LB Danny Trevathan

Signed S Duke Ihenacho

 

 

 

I think the overall point is made here. Some good moves were made to change those defense's for the most part. It wasn't just a coaching change that made the difference, though what Wade did with the Texans was really something. But JJ Watt is also THAT good.

 

This took forever so I didn't feel like looking at Crennel's info... if anyone would like to take a stab at it, that'd be nice. I think it's pretty interesting stuff, though.

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TSO

TSO

Posted
Posted

I made this comment about coaching in a different thread ... does everyone remember how dreadful the 2003 offensive line was a line that featured Jon Jansen, Randy Thomas, Chis Samuels and Derrick Dockery ... ...... coaching has no effect right ? 

 

That's a legitimate point, but it should be pointed out that Dockery was a rookie and we had Larry Moore at Center and Bernard Holsey at RT.   

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MartinC

MartinC

Posted
Posted

The balls are inert. It doesn't make a bit of difference guys...

 

I've had this exact conversation with folks I have played with who like to squeeze the balls or even bounce them saying it 'makes them soft". Makes zero difference. Now letting air out, that will make a difference ...

 

I liked the balls to be rubbed down a bit so they were not brand new and slick - found it harder to grip the ball when it was right out of the box. I was really fussy about keeping balls as dry as possible as well if it was rainy.

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MartinC

MartinC

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Posted

I made this comment about coaching in a different thread ... does everyone remember how dreadful the 2003 offensive line was a line that featured Jon Jansen, Randy Thomas, Chis Samuels and Derrick Dockery ... ...... coaching has no effect right ? 

 

I don't think anyone is saying coaching has no effect - well no one you want to take seriously. I'm personally not even saying coaching is not important or can not make a difference. But players make plays and win games not coaches. How many Super Bowls has Bilicheck won with someone other than Tom Brady at QB, how many did Shanny win without Elway (or as an OC Steve Young)?

 

So much of football is about match ups. It takes good coaching to identify and create the matchup's but you have to have the talent to exploit the match up created. Clearly you need both good coaching and superior talent - but my opinion is the weight is towards talent in terms of importance, just not heavily weighted.

 

One aspect of coaching thats not been touched in is improving the talent you have - developing players. I think with the new rules around practice time and lack of contact in practice thats got harder. The standard of tackling is getting worse, O'Line play is declining, I think one way superior coaching can make a real difference is in taking the talent and making it better - its not all about X's and O's.

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