Do You Believe In Possession? Exorcism?

[AzSkinsFan63]

Just watched The Conjuring last night...

http://www.historyvshollywood.com/reelfaces/conjuring.php

[grego]

Eh, reading that link doesn't really make me think this guy has definitive proof either.

Still, good topic for discussion and even radio air for a Halloween weekend.

I will say I enjoyed Allen and it didn't seem like he was a huckster, but then again, we're talking exorcisms here.

Edit: Allen says the guy is still alive. Mysteries!

 

 

http://www.strangemag.com/exorcistpage1.html

 

this guys story appears rock solid. great read. if you get a chance to talk to allen again, ask him about the address discrepancy. 

 

i have a feeling he was more interested in the events as recorded in the diary and not so much who it was or where part of it happened. funny how a little misinformation snowballs into fact.

 

actually, on second thought, i think he might have been just trying to protect the identity of the boy after all, being that he had the diary that contained the address. unless, he had a copy that had that information deleted. 

 

Continuing on this Cottage City theme, the 1997 video release In the Grip of Evil shows a house in two separate sequences that they purport to be the home of the haunted boy. They don’t identify its address, though representatives from Henninger Media Development, the producers of the video, revealed to me that it was the only address given for the family in the diary of the exorcism kept by Father Raymond Bishop (which was supplied to them by Thomas Allen). When I began my investigative work in Cottage City and visited 3807 40th Avenue, I immediately recognized it as the house in the video.

 

he definitely does not come off as a guy just trying to sell books. probably just took it as fact, as many people did. interesting stuff, though. 

[Burgold]

Thanks for listening and the feedback. Appreciate it.

[Zguy28]

Yes I do believe in them. If I say otherwise, it would mean the bible is not truth, which it is.

More information on them and the many passages detailing Jesus Christ's and the apostles interaction with them is found here: http://www.gotquestions.org/demon-possession.html

[PeterMP]

I would imagine that these types of things, along with ghosts and stuff would have been figured out by scientists by now, but instead they figure they'll spend their time doing something that matters and isn't as absurd.

I don't really have an opinion on excorcisms or ghosts because I don't really know anything about them.

I've had no encounters myself, and I don't know anybody that to me has claimed to have.

But I wanted to make the general point, a fundamental assumption in science is that things have natural causes. If X has a non-natural cause, then science isn't going to get you very far.

[RansomthePasserby]

I've had no encounters myself, and I don't know anybody that to me has claimed to have.

 

 

I have relatives that claim to. It's freaky stuff, dude.

 

Apparently, my great grandma on my dad's side was a pretty weird, spiritual lady. She wasn't religious, didn't like going to church or anything like that, but she was into dark, occultish things. Trying to contact spirits, had a lot of strange little artifacts, statues, etc. 

My dad says that when he was a kid, he was in his grandparent's living room with my great grandpa. He was looking down the hallway, when he saw a dark cloaked figure, with a pointy hood, a long bird-like beak protruding from the hood. The figure moved out of a bedroom on one side of the hallway into a bedroom on the other side.

When he asked my great grandpa what it was, his response was, "Oh that? Never mind that."

 

After my dad's grandparents died, a lady who was into similar spiritual things liked the house and decided to buy it. She claimed she could do seances with the dead, and had talked to my great grandma's spirit in the house. So my grandma and uncle met with her at the house to try to "contact" my dead great grandma. 

 

Apparently, during these sessions, the lady would be able to relay detailed descriptions of my dad's grandma that only someone who actually knew her in real life would know. When the lights went dim and inanimate objects levitated off the ground and started flying around the room, my grandma and uncle decided the whole seance thing was a bad idea and left.

 

So yeah, they could be lying (why would they, though?). Or it could be true. I don't know. Personally I think all this spiritual stuff is strange and I prefer staying as far away from it as I can.

[Elessar78]

This is by no means dismissing your wife's honest perceptions ...

I asked her again and she swears that the subject CLEARLY had two feet in bounds and the demon was not being bobbled. What more could you want, counselor?

[Zguy28]

On the other hand, skepticism is fashionable. Today, we strive to appear as rational man.

Still, exploring these areas or even just playing around with them can be fun.

I'm not so sure Burg. Spiritual forces of darkness are nothing to play with IMHO.

 

In the book of Acts, an account of some men who styled themselves as exorcists had an encounter with a spirit in the city of Ephesus. They are nothing to be trifled with.

 

Acts 19:11-20

New English Translation (NET)

The Seven Sons of Sceva

¹¹ God was performing extraordinary miracles by Paul’s hands, ¹² so that when even handkerchiefs or aprons that had touched his body were brought to the sick, their diseases left them and the evil spirits went out of them. ¹³ But some itinerant Jewish exorcists tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were possessed by evil spirits, saying, “I sternly warn you by Jesus whom Paul preaches.” ¹⁴ (Now seven sons of a man named Sceva, a Jewish high priest, were doing this.) ¹⁵ But the evil spirit replied to them, “I know about Jesus and I am acquainted with Paul, but who are you?” ¹⁶ Then the man who was possessed by the evil spirit jumped on them and beat them all into submission. He prevailed against them so that they fled from that house naked and wounded. ¹⁷ This became known to all who lived in Ephesus, both Jews and Greeks; fear came over them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was praised. ¹⁸ Many of those who had believed came forward, confessing and making their deeds known. ¹⁹ Large numbers of those who had practiced magic collected their books and burned them up in the presence of everyone. When the value of the books was added up, it was found to total fifty thousand silver coins. ²⁰ In this way the word of the Lord continued to grow in power and to prevail.

[Riggo-toni]

Just as any kind of skin disease seems to be described as leprosy in the Bible, I imagine any kind of serious mental illness is ascribed to possession or demonic forces. Growing up in a Christian household, I always remembered the story of the "legion" of demons being cast into pigs and then jumping off a cliff. It wasn't until careful study of the history and messianic climate of the era that I realized this was a literary device/metaphor for the desire to expunge the Roman dominance from Judea.

[Botched]

I would allow myself to be possessed by a demon if it meant no more exorcism movies could ever be made.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

This is interesting because this came up in an RCIA class I attended yesterday (I'm a sponsor). One of the candidates had a question I about "demons" and the priest just happened to walk into the room at the time. He took the position that there are "demons" but I thought he made an interesting point about Satan.

Granted, this only makes sense if you believe in God, Satan, etc. But the idea is that Satan is a seducer. Evil does not seduce us through fear but through our desires from obvious things like wealth and love to less obvious things like knowledge of the future (psychics) and the ability to talk to a deceased love one (mediums). 

 

Personally, I don't not believe, if that makes sense. In general, that's a pretty good way to look at my religious faith.

[Zguy28]

Just as any kind of skin disease seems to be described as leprosy in the Bible, I imagine any kind of serious mental illness is ascribed to possession or demonic forces. Growing up in a Christian household, I always remembered the story of the "legion" of demons being cast into pigs and then jumping off a cliff. It wasn't until careful study of the history and messianic climate of the era that I realized this was a literary device/metaphor for the desire to expunge the Roman dominance from Judea.

Actually, that is pretty far from the truth, in more than one area. Sickness and disease are both documented separately from possession by unclean spirits in the New Testament.

 

We won't get into the whole historicity argument for the Gospels.

[Mr. Sinister]

Personally, I don't not believe, if that makes sense. In general, that's a pretty good way to look at my religious faith.

 

That actually makes perfect sense, and I am somewhat of that same mindset. It's in our nature to question everything, especially when it comes to fringe beliefs/theories/stories that are situated in no man's land between science and religion, where there is no crystal clear answer to anything... which admittedly can lead to peoples imaginations running wild. I can't say that I believe wholeheartedly in stuff like demonic possession (I will admit that 4-5 years ago, I definitely "Wanted To Believe"), but I will say that for as much as we now know about the planet, and beyond, there is still so much for us to learn.

 

Even if 99% of everything "paranormal/supernatural", etc, is complete BS, just that 1 percent is enough for me to acknowledge the possibility that it could exist.

[Predicto]

[alexey]

BTW if you know anybody who can actually demonstrate anything, there is a cool $1,000,000 available:

 

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

 

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/component/content/article/37-static/254-jref-challenge-faq.html

 

 

Rules and Guidelines1. Challenge History

1.1 How long has this Challenge been open?

    The Challenge was first introduced in 1964 when James Randi offered $1,000 of his own money to the first person who could offer proof of the paranormal. When the word got out, donors began stepping forward to help, and soon the prize had grown to One Million Dollars.

1.2 Where did Randi get this great idea for a Challenge?

    During a live radio panel discussion, James Randi was challenged by a parapsychologist to "put [his] money where [his] mouth is", and Randi responded by offering to pay $1,000 to anyone who could demonstrate paranormal powers in a controlled test.

1.3 How many people have applied for the Challenge?

    Between 1964 and 1982, Randi declared that over 650 people had applied. Between 1997 and February 15, 2005, there had been a total of 360 official, notarized applications. Applications continue to pour in!

1.4 Has anyone ever gotten past the preliminary test?

    No. Some people use this fact as a reason not to apply – and yet the protocol is never altered once the applicant agrees to it. In fact, we ask the applicant to design the test.

1.5 Has anyone taken the formal test?

    No. Applicants must pass the preliminary test in order to move on to a formal test. So far, no one has ever performed the paranormal ability they claimed to have.

[Zguy28]

BTW if you know anybody who can actually demonstrate anything, there is a cool $1,000,000 available:

 

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

 

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/component/content/article/37-static/254-jref-challenge-faq.html

Do you really think if someone was possessed by Satan or a demon that they would sign up for a test to verify it?

[Jumbo]

Do you really think if someone was possessed by Satan or a demon that they would sign up for a test to verify it?

 

Sure. It could happen.

 

 

 

The ways of G...I mean Satan, are beyond your human comprehension. 

 

 

 

(don't curse me---I'm playing)

[alexey]

Do you really think if someone was possessed by Satan or a demon that they would sign up for a test to verify it?

just pointing out that there is a hefty sum awaiting anybody who can demonstrate anything.

Btw in case you are skeptical about motivating people financially, I think if a person has an ability to heal/exorcise/etc, I think they have a moral obligation to come forward and make it known to the world.

[mistertim]

Do you really think if someone was possessed by Satan or a demon that they would sign up for a test to verify it?

The person doing the exorcism certainly could. 

[PeterMP]

BTW if you know anybody who can actually demonstrate anything, there is a cool $1,000,000 available:

 

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

 

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/component/content/article/37-static/254-jref-challenge-faq.html

 

The fact that they've had so many applicants and haven't even had a false positive even in their "preliminary" tests seems a bit odd if they are conducting tests fair to the individual.

 

If me and 100 people got together and from their perspective independently (but really in cohoots) said we could correctly guess the identify of a playing card without seeing it at a statistically significant level (which would generally be considered to a p-value < 0.05), then just randomly 5 of us would "pass".

 

Now, you can take into account how many tests you've done so that the p-value is lower and represents the p-value for those types of tests, but that seems unfair to the individual.

 

If I can correctly guess the identity of a playing card without seeing it, it isn't my fault that 100 frauds went before me so to correct the p-value for those 100 other test isn't fair to me.

 

The quoted part doesn't say how many tests that they've actually conducted, but doing hundreds to tests and not getting a false positive alone would become significantly unlikely.

[Zguy28]

just pointing out that there is a hefty sum awaiting anybody who can demonstrate anything.

Btw in case you are skeptical about motivating people financially, I think if a person has an ability to heal/exorcise/etc, I think they have a moral obligation to come forward and make it known to the world.

Alexey, somebody could rise from the dead and people still wouldn't believe it.

For I passed on to you as of first importance what I also received – that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day according to the scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as though to one born at the wrong time, he appeared to me also. For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. (1 Corinthians 15:3-9 NET)

[alexey]

The fact that they've had so many applicants and haven't even had a false positive even in their "preliminary" tests seems a bit odd if they are conducting tests fair to the individual.

 

If me and 100 people got together and from their perspective independently (but really in cohoots) said we could correctly guess the identify of a playing card without seeing it at a statistically significant level (which would generally be considered to a p-value < 0.05), then just randomly 5 of us would "pass".

 

Now, you can take into account how many tests you've done so that the p-value is lower and represents the p-value for those types of tests, but that seems unfair to the individual.

 

If I can correctly guess the identity of a playing card without seeing it, it isn't my fault that 100 frauds went before me so to correct the p-value for those 100 other test isn't fair to me.

 

The quoted part doesn't say how many tests that they've actually conducted, but doing hundreds to tests and not getting a false positive alone would become significantly unlikely.

Do you think they design tests for paranormal that "one in hundreds" can pass due to random chance?

Alexey, somebody could rise from the dead and people still wouldn't believe it.

For I passed on to you as of first importance what I also received – that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day according to the scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as though to one born at the wrong time, he appeared to me also. For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. (1 Corinthians 15:3-9 NET)

AND he flew to the heaven on the winged horse, what more do you guys need?  Oh wait wrong guy

[Zguy28]

Do you think they design tests for paranormal that "one in hundreds" can pass due to random chance?

AND he flew to the heaven on the winged horse, what more do you guys need?  Oh wait wrong guy

May God bless you today Alexey.

[Elessar78]

Yet, up until recently, even science didn't know that non-carbon based life existed. So, try as they might, people who believed in non-carbon based life would not have been able to produce evidence either for some million dollar prize. 

[Koolblue13]

I am finding this thread extremely interesting. I laughed at first, with an of course not kind of answer and put things like ghosts in a category similar to where I'd put dragons and werewolves (which I'd love to believe in). I gotta say though, some of you do make some interesting points, albeit in a vein of novelty to me.