chipwhich Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 But I digress. And now we have the interwebz to propagate these myths at speeds faster than light. And the humans inability to analyze their readings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebluefood Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 I do believe it is possible and I do believe certain people have the gift to exorcise demons, but I believe it is something that is extremely rare and we should be *very* careful before marking something as a "possession." A quote from Bishop Thomas J. Paprocki of Springfield, Ill. “But it’s rare, it’s extraordinary, so the use of exorcism is also rare and extraordinary,” he said. “But we have to be prepared.” That's pretty much my stance as well. Exorcising demons goes back to the very start of the Christian faith (several cases of Christ and his disciples doing just that in scripture) but it's so rare that it must be thought of as a last resort and only if our modern understanding of health and wellness fail to explain a person's condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grego Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 I don't get it- are we saying we think it's a hoax cuz the author changed the location from cottage city to mt rainier? Ok, I think I'm getting it. I realize the events in the book talked about mt rainier. I had assumed that was not the actual location, and the tv show I just watched talked about cottage city as the location, and even interviewed a guy who was a dr now who knew the boy and his family at the time. Said the boy went on to live a normal life and work for nasa. Pretty sure it didn't take place in my Rainer from what I understand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 whether you can accept the existence of supernatural would be a good starting point,once there the limits are self imposed. kinda like aliens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 Maybe.. could be the supernatural is perfectly natural, and we just don't get it yet. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 <edit> Exorcising demons goes back to the very start of the Christian faith (several cases of Christ and his disciples doing just that in scripture) but it's so rare that it must be thought of as a last resort and only if our modern understanding of health and wellness fail to explain a person's condition. Better than burning them, like some did at times. I wonder if it was "witch doctors" lighting those puritanical fires on those witches or was it more often Christian "clergymen." Most of us likely have little understanding of where our "modern understanding" is these days on many matters. Or how how much the future beacons of seriously dramatic change in human understandings. "supernatural." Sometimes, the historical/sociocultural context in which terms develop can be awfully relevant to their value in application in other times. But it's not like linguistics is anything real. It's some kind of voodoo (oh, that's a religion again---crap). ...any sufficiently advanced science will seem.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 I would imagine that these types of things, along with ghosts and stuff would have been figured out by scientists by now, but instead they figure they'll spend their time doing something that matters and isn't as absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipwhich Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 I don't get it- are we saying we think it's a hoax cuz the author changed the location from cottage city to mt rainier? Just stating it doesn't look like the author didn't do much research at all. 5 minutes on the interwebz could have helped him out a little. Better than burning them, like some did at times. Just worthy of a quote Amazing how we evolve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grego Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 Just stating it doesn't look like the author didn't do much research at all. 5 minutes on the interwebz could have helped him out a little. I'm actually watching the show again now. Allen talks quite a bit. Of course, I didn't record the first 10 minutes of the show so I'm not sure what his explanation of the location was or if he even mentioned it. The show I'm watching is "the real story" and it airs on the smithsonian channel if anyone wants to check it out. Worth a look, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuposse87 Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 Hell no. But it does make for interesting entertainment. My pops has told me countless times he has aided in performing an Islamic exorcism back in pakistan in his more youthful days. I keep asking him if he needs to be committed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 I would imagine that these types of things, along with ghosts and stuff would have been figured out by scientists by now, but instead they figure they'll spend their time doing something that matters and isn't as absurd. You know how just in your everyday life there are those people who just talk about stuff that's basically nonsensical or pointless as far as you're concerned so you just "handle it" however the situation merits, but you don't really invest or take it seriously? It's like that--most of us do prioritize. I'm pretty open-minded about most stuff. The word "possible" is rarely strained, but I also put high values on "more likely", "most likely", "pragmatic", and "objective" in such matters. Everyone makes choices about what they want to spend time on. I do question how much in touch many of us are with what is often actually driving us in the directions we go. Many "well-considered" stances are simply layers of rationalization (when "done well" they are even often logical in argument) to support an emotionally-based perceived "need" (really a want/desire and often way "powerful"). In such very common (almost constant) occurrences it seems the prefrontal cortex is not so much used for its offering a path that can productively "rule" (or "transcend" if you like) the amygdala/limbic stuff, as much as it is using those functions in service to the amygdala/limbic stuff ("stuff" perhaps getting too technical). At any rate, when a mind is "closed" on several core aspects of a topic that remains "open" in any logical sense, there is only so far one will ever go in dialogue, especially if logical forms of argument or even just generally reasonable forms of discussion are trying to be applied. But it's still a trip. But I digress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 I hear ya and your Twain quote said it better. Ive seen a lot in my short life that I'll never be able to explain, but when it comes to things like this, im pretty comfortable shrugging my shoulders, making a "pfft" sound, calling it absurd and unimportant and going about my day. Is it possible? Sure, but on a level of 10 to why do you give two ****s, I'll just poke fun and walk away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 Correction, your Twain quote sums it up perfectly. Its not letting me edit my comment. Didnt want to be rude. I didn't get much sleep last night. Must have been the sage I burned before bed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 Correction, your Twain quote sums it up perfectly. Its not letting me edit my comment. Didnt want to be rude. I didn't get much sleep last night. Must have been the sage I burned before bed. I never want to be rude. I just feel like I owe it to the public sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaGoonie55 Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 whether you can accept the existence of supernatural would be a good starting point,once there the limits are self imposed. kinda like aliens This. I have never witnessed a possession, or talked to anyone credible about it, but it's pretty much my biggest fear. (other than flying). I'm also an amateur paranormal researcher. I accept the fact that one day, I may or may not be face to face with that I fear the most. The spirit realm (or whatever you call it) has always been interesting, almost calling me, to investigate. I have some CRAZY stuff I've captured. I see it one of two ways (not entirely sure yet but both are plausible in my mind): I believe in God. Therefore I believe in Satan (not worship Satan- but acknowledge the existence). If you acknowledge Satan, then demons go with the territory. -or- There are no 'spirits'. As the bible says http://biblehub.com/ecclesiastes/9-5.htm Ecclesiastes 9:5 4For whoever is joined with all the living, there is hope; surely a live dog is better than a dead lion. 5For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. 6Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun. So what I think I'm capturing as ghosts - are demons. Because the dead know nothing - therefore cannot interract with something they have no idea is there. Either way: Demons by their definition are: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/demon 1 a : an evil spirit b : a source or agent of evil, harm, distress, or ruin Demons could simply be a term for the evil things that lurk in man's heart. We all have demons - whether we exorcize them or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted November 2, 2013 Author Share Posted November 2, 2013 It's funny what we choose to believe in. For example, I'm pretty comfortable with the notion of intelligent life out there in the universe. I really don't mind the concept of a creator, but exorcism is a step too far even though I think precognition is possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 Hell no. But it does make for interesting entertainment. My pops has told me countless times he has aided in performing an Islamic exorcism back in pakistan in his more youthful days. I keep asking him if he needs to be committed. Sounds like he was committed,anyone convinced they have the answers are entertaining. at least until they start killing off the skeptics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grego Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 So the exorcist was based on the story of Ronald hunkeler and the address was apparently. 3807 40th avenue , cottage city. A writer named mark opsasnick did a lot of research about this case and apparently found out a lot of the actual facts. Interesting stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 It's funny what we choose to believe in. For example, I'm pretty comfortable with the notion of intelligent life out there in the universe. I really don't mind the concept of a creator, but exorcism is a step too far even though I think precognition is possible.believing that there is life on other planets, when we've only been to one, maybe two is pretty easy to do. Believing that isn't possible is more along the lines of believing in a creator imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted November 3, 2013 Author Share Posted November 3, 2013 On the other hand, skepticism is fashionable. Today, we strive to appear as rational man. Still, exploring these areas or even just playing around with them can be fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elessar78 Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 My wife did a Catholic mission trip in Jamaica and says she witnessed an exorcism. Freakiest thing in her life, she says. I find her pretty reliable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 Today, we strive to appear as rational man. I'd usually take a view more like "today we strive to adjust as rational man." But not everyone and not to the same degree. Pretty much as you'd expect. At least it's an option these days. And who wants to be all rational even if they could? I'd never suggest it's desirable. Emotions not only serve a purpose I think is going to be around for awhile, but they are as much fun as they are a pain. We've only been kicking it here on the globe for a short time, comparatively (assuming one "believes science") to many species. People can believe whatever about whatever out their ass until the cows come home, but when (especially many) thousands of years come and go, changes in how we (some) perceive the human experience changes dramatically. But while time passes, we make noise perpetually. It's one of the main things we do. Make noise to recognize our existence and for it to be recognized. All animals do. Except when they're hunting. Notable changes (of any kind) can take tens of thousands of years or happen quickly, but so far millions of years seem to be at our disposal in terms of potential existence as a species. Looking at the differences in complexity of how we conceptualize things, and how widespread interactive knowledge exchange is now, vs just five thousand years ago is staggering, particularly when viewed against the backdrop of the increasingly progressive and accelerated change we've seen since the "industrial revolution" and still seems lying ahead. It is impossible for me to accurately predict where we'll be in our cultural beliefs and what noises we'll be making five thousand years from now, let alone a couple hundred thousand (drop in the bucket) if we make it without regression/destruction. But based on what's gone before and what we know of human behavior to date, I expect much of it will be quite different than today's rock-solid versions of beliefs on many a matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted November 3, 2013 Author Share Posted November 3, 2013 See, another example. Jumbo pretending to be a rational man... when we all know that after a Redskins loss he is probably far from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morneblade Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 Quick answer to the OP: No and No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 My wife did a Catholic mission trip in Jamaica and says she witnessed an exorcism. Freakiest thing in her life, she says. I find her pretty reliable. This is by no means dismissing your wife's honest perceptions or your support of her, amigo. This response is meant in general. Besides, I am sure "freaky" would work for many of us, though it's not exactly a detailed summary of what she thinks she saw (so i am not "attacking" that comment): I often note to people that there are professions other than mine where experience with eyewitness testimony gives you a lot of perspective in how you receive such reports. For instance, having done a fair share of work with law enforcement agencies, it's a shared topic often with them and medical professionals too---the whole matter of accuracy in self-reports or eye-witness testimony and all. Even in the simplest of matter with no personal biases/beliefs/stake in the matter (let alone powerful life-shaping ones) involved, like three people seeing the same car accident, you can quite typically get dramatic differences in what happened. A common example is how a vehicle playing a role in some matter will be described in very different ways (even the basics--van/sedan/pickup/color/number of doors) by "normal" people seeing the same incident. Then you factor in people's emotions, beliefs (when applicable) and situation context (unusual? traumatic? state of mind? health?location? <familiar/unfamiliar/pleasant/unpleasant>, and way before we get to concerns of any "conscious" or deliberate agenda/investment, we can understand why people in such professional capacities try not to use "eyewitness" stuff any more than they absolutely have to. You don't have to travel to remote places and peoples at all to find people who believe the same things your wife did after seeing such events. I have worked with a few such folk myself over the last decade and there a quite a few in at least one local congregation where I live now who very much think demonic possession is prevalent (but I have heard of no actual exorcisms---just laying of hands and intense prayer sessions--as far as I know). But whether building a legal case or a belief system, these are some of the (often glaring) serious considerations and inherent weaknesses in relying heavily on "eye-witness" accounting for major supports. Remember, this is even before we talk personal investments of either the witnesses, or those repeating or reporting what the witnesses said, in any matter. These ("all things witnessing") matters are all very relevant to most religious belief systems and obviously looms large in discussions about the apostles, Jesus' divinity, and other Christianity-related topics. We also know how shaky even simple surveys/polls can often be as a data source of scientific credibility, even when skillfully designed (not the norm). You never want such to be a primary, or even key, foundation of your claims in serious work. But with beliefs, as we generally use the term in current social discourse, we can "use" whatever we want. And we do. See, another example. Jumbo pretending to be a rational man... when we all know that after a Redskins loss he is probably far from it. I am not ready to give up trying to pretend I am fully human. My tombstone will read Redskins Fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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