La Times: Colts' Jim Irsay Implies One Championship Under Peyton Manning Wasn't Good Enough

[rm1369]

You can get upset all you want but it's the truth. He may have meant well but look at the outcome. All he had to say was "Peyton's time here was amazing and we wish him the best". Nothing more, nothing less. However the foolish drunk had to make it about him, the way he always does.

So you haven't watch any video of irsays comments then right?

I haven't looked, but what has your take on the RG3 / shanny media rift been? That RG3 is making it all about him?

[Vilandil Tasardur]

For a very long time Elway didn't have any of those rings eithers.  And he has one more humiliating loss than he does ring.  So if you look at it closely, you need to look away from the guys putting up incredible numbers and look at the other guys to see what's missing.  The Colts were missing something while Peyton Manning was at QB, if they don't identify that then they'll have the same problem with Luck

That's kind of Irsay's point. For a very long time Elway didn't have those rings either, and he was seen as a huge choke job who's career was at best a dissapointment. It took a solid team effort and a crazy running game to get him over the hump and the monkey off his back. 

 

Irsay is saying that, using the wonders of 20/20 hindsight, they built their team wrong. They built their team in a way (70% offense by salary cap) that allows Manning to be incredible but resulted in fewer superbowls than other teams. And as an owner, the end all be all is rings. So he's saying he's going to do it differently so that he doesn't fail Luck the way he failed Manning. 

 

I actually think he's apologizing to Manning, not cheap shotting him. He's saying Manning had the talent to win a lot more if he had built a better all around team. 

[JoeWolf990]

He isnt wrong though, is he?

The only time Peyton won a Super Bowl, he had a mediocre postseason.

In fact most of dude's postseasons have been below his season numbers.

Irsay is a dick, but he right.

[Taylor703]

So you haven't watch any video of irsays comments then right?

I haven't looked, but what has your take on the RG3 / shanny media rift been? That RG3 is making it all about him?

I think it's all stupid. I personally wish they would all shut up. I know irsay meant well but the truth is it came out wrong and the media ran with it. Yes I heard his comments and yes I saw his interview with Albert Breer after the fact where he claimed he meant no disrespect.

[Bubble Screen]

Anyone think it's possible Irsay made these comments as a means to deflect pressure off of Luck? You know Irsay wants this game more than anything, so he wanted the attention on him, and not Luck, leading up to the game.

I think this stuff happens more than people realize. I think Jerry Jones made his crazy moral victory comment, as a way of taking criticism off of Romo sits to pee, for throwing the pick that cost them the Denver game.

[WhoRUSupposed2Be]

The thing is, as big of an A-hole as he is, I don't think he's wrong.

 

You take possibly the great QB of all time (according to others, never me) and give him not one, but TWO HOF receivers, not one, but FOUR 1st round pick running backs (of which one if a HOFer and one is very, very close) and one of the best lines of the decade, and a highly respected defensive "mastermind" of a coach, and you only manage to carve out one Superbowl against a Rex Grossman led Bears?

 

I think it's deplorable for an owner to say this publicly. But if I were Irsay, I would absolutely feel this way. And I would make sure my new GM and new HC new that if Andrew Luck is anywhere near Peyton's level, multiple rings are expected. After all, not one of us would be satisfied if RG3s entire career went by with all of Peyton's gaudy numbers and a single ring.

 

Hell, the Bucks accidentally stumbled into a Superbowl ring. The Rams stumbled into a Superbowl win. If they don't back it up soon, the Saints and the Packers will have stumbled themselves into a Superbowl win.

 

By stumble I don't mean to imply they were bad. I just mean they had good QBs (the latter three great QBs) who put it all together and won a ring. For all of Peyton's accomplishments, he hasn't done any more than any of those guys (in terms of what matters to the owner). You think the city of Green Bay isn't disappointed that Favre only got them one ring?

Okay, glad we got the ***hole part out the way but to question the other parts of your post.

 

Edgerrin James is a HOF? Other than Marshall Faulk who was shipped out after Peyton's first season there I believe. 

 

Irsay should not be saying **** other than kissing Peyton's *** for the one ring that he has. 

I'll give the Colts 2005 and 2009 as coulda/shoulda's (though Caldwell/Coyer were thoroughly outcoached by GW/Payton). Every other year they simply were not on the other teams level. At all.

I'd almost forgotten that Caldwell was the Coach that year.

[gortiz]

You guys hear Todd Helton's comments!? Goodness ... I honestly don't think they were as bad as people making them out to be, but as a poster said, he left way too much to interpretation. 

 

After being fired by Irsay in 2012, Manning returns to play a football game in Indianapolis for the first time since the Colts cut him. “I hope he steps on their neck and doesn’t let up. That’s what I hope for, especially after that idiot, whatever you call him, spouting off his mouth,” Helton said Wednesday during The Press Box, streamed live on The Denver Post’s website and simulcast on Mile High Sports Radio.

 

 

http://blogs.denverpost.com/kiszla/2013/10/16/todd-helton-to-colts-owner-jim-irsay-youre-classless-and-an-idiot/1568/

[thebluefood]

Good luck to anyone facing the Patriots/Steelers in the '00s. That's basically what it boiled down to. For much of his career, that defense was complete and utter garbage. Yeah, Peyton didn't always play great in the postseason, but it's about more than just him. The blueprint to stop postseason Peyton was to control the ball on offense, limiting his possessions, clamping down between the 20's, and taking advantage of a soft defense and special teams.

 

Their performance throughout that decade had just as much to do with the way the team was constructed as it did with Peyton. And on top of that, as great a receiver as Marvin Harrison was (I'd put him in the top 5) because of his size, he was easy to bully at times, and get taken out of the game. Their special teams was horrible. Absolutely horrible. When you have to rely on your HOF QB to throw for 400 yds and 3td's every game to win, that should tell you something. They should be glad that they got that one. It's hard to get. Irsay can mention the Giants, Ravens, and Patriots all the wants, but most of their postseason success had to do with their defenses. Once Peyton's defense got just a little better, he started going deeper into the playoffs and reaching SB's.

Couldn't agree more. The AFC was stacked in the 2000s. Winning the AFC Championship twice was an accomplishment in it of itself for Manning and the Colts. Manning in the 2000s seemed to run into the same problem Unitas ran into in the 60s. He was at the top of his game, but so were several other teams.

 

For much of the 2000s, the Colts had defenses ranked outside of the top 10. Hell, in their 2006 Super Bowl winning season, their defense was ranked 23rd and 21st in points and yards respectively. 

[LeesburgSkinFan]

Naturally, everybody and their grandmother in Denver has come out to defend Peyton. Ditto for ESPN with all of their commentators defending Peyton. A few are willing to go so far as to say "well, it's Irsay's right to say that" but that's about it.

Funny enough, though, Peyton's old coach, Tony Dungy actually unintentionally confirmed Irsay's criticism while trying to defend Peyton. Dungy said Irsay is making it "personal" and "I think that’s what he’s trying to do. Have him make it such a big game he doesn’t perform well." In other words, Dungy thinks Peyton doesn't perform well in big games.

Peyton gets unfairly criticized at times, to be sure. But he threw an awful pick-6 in the Super Bowl against New Orleans and a bad pick in OT last year against Baltimore.

 

[No_Pressure]

Peyton Manning has a regular season record of 160-70. He has a post-season record of 9-11. He has won one superbowl, lost one superbowl, and gone one and done on 8 occasions.

 

It's safe to say that I don't think Jim Irsay is all that incorrect, and while we can make as many excuses as we want about how he ran into the Steelers and Patriots over and over, it isn't necessarily true.

 

1999- Lost to the Titans, Manning was 19/42 (42%) for 227 yards 0 TD 0 INT

 

2000- Lost to the Dolphins, Manning was 17/32 (53%) for 194 yards 1 TD 0 INT

 

2002- Lost to the Jets, Manning was 14/31 (45%) for 137 yards, 0 TD, 2 INT

 

2003- Manning had amazing games in Denver and Kansas City throwing for 8 TD's total in 2 wins. Then against the Patriots he was 23/47 (48%) for 237 yards, 1 TD, 4 INT

 

2004- Manning was amazing in Denver again with almost 460 yards and 4 tds, Lost to New England and was 27/42 (62%) for 238 yards, 0 TD, 1 INT

 

2005- Lost to the Steelers, 22/38 (57%) for 290 yards, 1 TD, 0 INT (This was the first playoff loss where Manning played very well and Mike Vandershank lost the game for them.

 

2006- Superbowl Champion (It is worth noting that Manning did not play particularly well in this post-season and was in fact carried by the strong defensive showing of Tony Dungy and Ron Meeks' unit. Manning was a combined 97/153 (63%) for 1034 yards, 3 TDs, 7 INTs

 

2007- Lost to San Diego, Manning was Romo sits to pee-ish, 33/48 (68%) for 402 yards, 3 TDs, 2 INTs. Manning's interceptions were costly, and in the 4th quarter, he failed to complete 3 straight passes with over 1 minute left on the clock and turned the ball over on downs.

 

2008- Lost to San Diego, he had a good game, his defense failed him. 25/42 for 310 yards, 1 TD, 0 INT

 

2009- Lost the Superbowl to New Orleans. He was pretty decent in the two playoff games getting there, and if the stat line had cut off at 3:29 left in the 4th quarter, he had 244 yards, 1 TD and 0 INT. Unfortunately after 3:29 he threw the game winning touchdown to the other team. 333 Yards, 1 TD and one enormous INT.

 

2010- Lost to the Jets, 18/26, 225 yards, 1 TD, 0 INT. The Jets had a good defense and running game this year. I wouldn't say that the 19 points let up by the defense failed Manning however.

 

2012- Lost to the Ravens, 28/43 for 290 yards, 3 TD, 2 INT. I think we all remember this one. Manning threw a first quarter pick 6, gave up a sack fumble twice which may or may not have been on him (the one in the 3rd quarter led to a game tying touchdown for the Ravens), but it is worth mentioning that he led a TD drive with 7 minutes in the 4th quarter, and the Ravens got a miracle TD play to even force OT. In overtime however, he was intercepted to kill a potential FG drive which led to the Ravens getting the ball at the Denver 45 and running it to kick the game winning FG.

 

Conclusion:

 

While Peyton Manning is certainly the greatest quarterback many of us will likely ever see, and while he has had good playoff games, the argument that his team had the world's worst defense and ran into the Steelers or Patriots every year is wrong and simply promotes misconceptions.

 

Manning lost to the Titans, Dolphins, Jets, Patriots, Patriots x2, Steelers, San Diego, San Diego x2, New Orleans, Jets x2, and Ravens. People always talk about Manning running into those good Patriots teams which he did two years in a row, but we don't talk about how the Chargers knocked him out back to back, or his two losses to the Jets, or the fact that he lost playoff games to 8 different NFL Franchises. Some of those performances were ok, but in many cases they were awful showings on his part.

 

The defense argument is a bad one as well, and I feel it is something the ESPN talking heads started spouting to apologize for one of the NFL golden boys. Here are the following regular season defensive rankings (by points allowed) of Peyton Manning's losing playoff teams:

 

1999: 17th

2000: 15th

2002: 7th

2003: 20th

2004: 19th

2005: 2nd

2007: 1st

2008: 7th

2009: 8th

2010: 23rd

2012: 4th

 

On average, Peyton's defenses in seasons in which he lost in the playoffs have ranked 11th in the NFL. He played 7 seasons with a defense ranked in the top half of the NFL in points allowed. This is one of the arguments that started early and stuck around. He didn't have horrendous defenses at the start of his career, but they were not on par with his level of play, therefore when Manning stunk it up in the playoff losses in 99, 00, 02, and 03 (see stats above for stinkyness) NFL talking heads needed something to harp on to make Peyton look better.

 

It is also noteworthy to mention the season which is missing- 2006, when he won the superbowl, Peyton Manning's defense was ranked 23rd which ties it for the worst defense he ever played with, and ironically, it was this defense which carried Manning through the playoffs and which got him his ring (allowing only 8 points, getting 4 sacks and forcing 3 turnovers to trump Manning's 3 against KC, allowing 6 points and forcing 4 turnovers and 2 sacks against Baltimore, securing an interception of Tom Brady to stem a Patriots comeback and win the AFC Championship, and causing 5 turnovers...or maybe that was just Rex Grossman in the superbowl...)

 

At any rate, it is clear that Peyton Manning actually played with better defenses than most people are willing to admit. Sure, at moments he could have used the type of support Brady and rAWFULisburger got, but Manning was also statistically far superior to those two players (with the exception of Brady's 2007) in the regular season, and should have been expected to even out this discrepancy.

 

The only conclusion I can make is that Peyton Manning is a mild playoff choke. He's certainly no Tony Romo sits to pee or 1990-1994 Buffalo Bills or anything, and he's had some monster playoff games, such as the 5 TD performance against our own Mike Shanahan's Broncos. At the same time he was carried to his only superbowl victory, and on at least 4 occasions has actually been the guy who made the game ending mistake- one of which occurred in the superbowl, and another in the AFC Championship game. Peyton has a difficulty performing well in big games. It's like if you took his half-retarded brother who inexplicably has done far better than he normally does in the playoffs and combined him with Peyton you would get a QB who wins the superbowl every year and is the luckiest most retarded looking person on the planet.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Gonna be fun watching Peyton carve the Colts up on Sunday.

 

He should aim for 8 TDs.

 

He can get revenge on Irsay and can also one-up what he did to the team that replaced the Colts in Baltimore. That should double the pain to the Colt organization.

[rm1369]

The only conclusion I can make is that Peyton Manning is a mild playoff choke.

2003 Chiefs - Peyton was 22-30, 304 yds, 3 tds, 128.8 rating and it was still only a one possession game.

2005 Pitt - Manning did not play "very well". He (and the rest of the team) played poorly for most of the game and got behind. They needed a miracle (a bettis goaline fumble with 20 seconds remaining in the fourth) to even have the chance to tie.The Colts had been the dominate team all year - starting 13-0 before losing to San Diego. After that loss, they had to deal with Dungys sons suicide, 3 weeks without playing a meaningful game, and their starting CB being stabbed in the leg the day before the game. They came out playing poorly against a team they beat soundly several weeks prior. Vanderjagt shanked their chance to tie that game. I've always felt that if he makes that kick (and at the time he was the most accurate FG kicker in history, IIRC) the Colts win that game and get their first SB. They had the best team that year.

2009 Saints, SB - Mannings pick 6 was not the game winner. Colts were down 7 with a few minutes to go at that point. It put the game out of reach, but Colts were already down. Bad coaching, a big drop buy Garçon, an idiot reserve WR letting go of an onside kick because he thought he heard the ref say "white ball", and a hurt Dwight Freeney were much bigger factors in that game. They should have never been down to begin with.

2010 Jets - exact scenario Irsay is talking about. Manning has a 105+ QB rating, takes the lead with less than a minute to go, and ST gives up a 47 yd kickoff return. The D, aided by a ridiculously stupid TO called by Caldwell, allows MARK SANCHEZ to pass them into FG range to win the game. Seriously, Manning had over a 105+ QB rating and lost at home to a team led by MARK SANCHEZ. That tells you he didn't get any help.

2012 Ravens - IMO, this illustrates the difference between Brady and Manning. The difference? Luck (no pun intended). The year before Brady was 22-36, 236 yds, and 2 INTs yet he won. But not until Lee Evans is stripped / dropped a sure TD and the Ravens miss a chip shot FG to tie. Manning wasn't superb, but certainly had them in a position to win - until the defense collapsed and let Balt tie the game. The fumble Manning had (and there was only 1, not 2) was clearly, IMO, a tuck rule situation that should have resulted in an incompletion. You know, like it did for Brady to start his legacy.

In 2007 playoffs against the Chargers, Brady was 27-54, 280 yds, 2 tds, and 3 ints yet he stll got a win. But not until Troy Brown somehow strips the defender on the return after a late (game sealing) INT thrown by Brady. NE gets possession and goes on to win the game. That **** doesnt happen to Peyton. If he didnt play great, the Colts couldn't win - except one year (2006). And Peyton has a ring to show for it. Brady (and Eli) are lucky SOBs. Peyton - not so much.

Brady has 9 playoff wins with a QB rating less than 90, 6 with less than an 80. Peyton has 5 wins w/ lower than 90, 3 with less than 80 - all of those games are from the year they won the SB, except 1. Brady has lost 1 game when he had a rating over 90, Peyton has lost 4 - including 1 with a rating over 100. Brady has never lost a a game in which he had a 100+ rating. In every year except 2006, Peyton has had to be great to win. That's a standard few QBs have had to consistantly live up to - certainly not the "clutch" Tom Brady. That's what Irsay doesn't want to put on Lucks back. And that's what his comments were about.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

2003 Chiefs - Peyton was 22-30, 304 yds, 3 tds, 128.8 rating and it was still only a one possession game.

You should really edit your post man and cut back what you quoted. Like what I just did with your post. Rules and all.

Anyway, a couple of things: it's become pretty clear that Irsay is a lush like his daddy. After that 30 for 30 about the Bmore Colts marching band where they explore elder Irsay's alcoholism and how brutal and embarrassing it could get, it's kinda sad to see junior Irsay go down the same path.

While he's not wrong in WHAT he's saying perse, he is wrong FOR saying it. Respect. Peyton deserves it. Simple.

I still take Brady over Peyton. It would take something miraculous for me to change my opinion on that.

[rm1369]

You should really edit your post man and cut back what you quoted. Like what I just did with your post. Rules and all.

You are correct. Done.

Anyway, a couple of things: it's become pretty clear that Irsay is a lush like his daddy.

He has suffered with some substance abuse, however he is absolutely nothing like his dad. Other than his tweets and media availability Jim is a great owner. His dad was an ass that destroyed his own team to the point Elway refused to play for them. IMO, Jim is funny and interesting. I actually like a lot of his media availability and how candid he can be. As a fan, knowing where the team is going and why is great. Especially after the super secrecy and lies that defined the Polian era.

While he's not wrong in WHAT he's saying perse, he is wrong FOR saying it. Respect. Peyton deserves it. Simple.

The problem is, if you listen to anything Irsay actually says he's nothing but complimentary about Peyton. People have taken the angle he's dissing Peyton because it sells and because of their own views that Peyton chokes. What Irsay is actually saying is that other teams with lesser QBs won more titles because they built better teams around them and the Colts aren't going to do that again. He never says Peyton let the Colts down in any way. If its a shot at anybody it's Polian.

I still take Brady over Peyton. It would take something miraculous for me to change my opinion on that.

Understood. There are plenty of people that feel that way. Obviously I disagree. My favorite Brady moment happened in that Colts 2006 AFCC comeback game. The Colts scored to take a 4 point lead with a minute to go. I thought the Colts scored too early and that the great, clutch Brady would lead them for the go ahead score. Then the cameras showed a shot of Brady looking up at the score board and, I swear, he looked scared to me. I comment as such to my dad and then I realized the issue - all of Brady's great clutch plays were moving the team 30-40 yds for clutch Adam V FGs - not leading the team on the much harder TD drive. I knew then the Colts were going to the SB and thy did. Brady threw a pick. Ever since then I've looked past the legend and realized that Brady is certainly a great QB but he's also one lucky SOB and never was as good or as clutch as the storylines would have you believe.

[Warhead36]

A great QB gives his team a chance every year. The playoffs are a crapshoot. You just gotta get there every year, then hope and pray the stars align and the balls bounce your way. You can't judge a QB on Super Bowl wins because the playoffs are just so random. I mean Eli Manning has two rings and Dan Marino has 0, anybody gonna argue Eli is better than Marino? But both QBs give their teams a chance every year(this year not withstanding for Eli).

 

Every year Peyton was in Indy, the Colts were a contender. That's all you can ask for. The one year he was out, they were the WORST TEAM IN THE LEAGUE. Jimmy irsay is a tool.

[Botched]

Most QBs do worse in the postseason, that's not something exclusive to Peyton Manning like it's often made out to be. The playoffs are when defenses are at their most ferocious.

 

Peyton is actually  top-10 all-time in postseason QB rating, two spots above the deified Tom Brady.

[Hooper]

Irsay is a drunk. An idiot. A guy who was handed everything in life and acts like he earned it.

 

There is a damn good choice the Colts would not be in Indy right now had they not drafted Peyton Manning. 

 

Peyton Manning probably made Irsay over a billion dollars.

 

Taken out of context or not, misunderstood or not, the only thing that should ever come out of Irsay's mouth in regards to Manning is "thank you, thank you, thank you, sir."

 

You know what's hilarious? Irsay said he didn't want to have a star wars team where so much of your cap space goes to so few players.

 

Andrew Luck will probably be the league's first 200 million dollar player in 2015 and will take up a huge chunk of the Colts cap.

[Voice_of_Reason]

The years the Pats won their SBs, they had a crushing defense. Same with the Steelets. And the Giants.

The worst loss of any team in the SB is the Pats to the Giants in 2007. Period.

And I'll go out on a limb. If Dungy was coaching the colts against the Saints in the SB, they win that game. Caldwell and company weren't up to the task of comparing wits with Peyton and Brees.

Of Peyton wins another SB, which he might this year or next, then all this gibberish goes away.

[FanboyOf91]

Irsay makes me appreciate Dan Snyder more.

It amazes me how many people are defending an owner for taking a giant public **** upon one of his franchise's best quarterbacks. Thoroughly unprofessional.

You can get upset all you want but it's the truth. He may have meant well but look at the outcome. All he had to say was "Peyton's time here was amazing and we wish him the best". Nothing more, nothing less. However the foolish drunk had to make it about him, the way he always does.

It's about time the media stopped giving him a pass.

[Destino]

[Mr. Sinister]

Most QBs do worse in the postseason, that's not something exclusive to Peyton Manning like it's often made out to be. The playoffs are when defenses are at their most ferocious.

 

Peyton is actually  top-10 all-time in postseason QB rating, two spots above the deified Tom Brady.

 

Though his passer rating is most likely skewed by some of those ridiculous Wild Card/Divisional Playoff numbers, I agree. And as to the general discussion going on, obviously no one here is claiming Peyton didn't have a part to play in the Colts postseason struggles, but to pin it solely on him, is ridiculous. Again, it takes a team effort to win SB's.

[PapaLazarou]

Well now everybody knows he is a tool, not just Indy fans. That's what he wanted right?

[rm1369]

Well now everybody knows he is a tool, not just Indy fans. That's what he wanted right?

Everyone else is buying the media created BS storyline. I challenge you to find a direct quote (not someone's agenda skewed view) or a video showing Irsay saying Manning didn't get it done, Manning choked, or any other negative statement about Peyton. You can't because he didn't. The facts are that he gave an interview to the USA today during the owners meeting discussing the change. He said the same things he's said in many interviews over the past year, but they ran the story this week (Colts / Broncos week) and PFT needed clicks. The supposedly controversially statements are nothing more than him explaining his evolving philosophy on team building. Basically they've had the best QB and best passing game, but he's watched more complete teams win more SBs. When they decided to rebuild around Luck he challenged Grigson and Pagano to build like the early Patriots. WTF is wrong with that?

[88Comrade2000]

Put Tom Brady on the Colts and they probably win more than one superbowl.

[GhostofSparta]

Put Tom Brady on the Colts and they probably win more than one superbowl.

Pair Peyton with Belicheck and the Pats probably win 5 rings.