Rgiii Vs Cousins; A Civil Discussion On Pros & Cons

[ILikeBilly]

I have said it so many times now.  If AlMo does not fumble on the first offensive play of the FREAKING season, we win the Philly game.  We would now have a 1 - 1 record.  1 - 1 is where about 90% of the ES crowd had us after 2 games.  Relax - the team will play better.  Robert will play better.

 

At this point, Kirk is a good backup.  He has very little game experience and Robert, no doubt, should be the starter.

[Springfield]

Best case scenario: Cousins comes in and the team turns around. We start winning games. At what point do you pull him for Griffin? You know, the guy who you think is still injured and we gave up 3 first round draft picks for (OK, 2). Why bench the back up if he's winning us games? Boom. QB controversy. Great.

Worst case scenario: Cousins comes in and struggles. How many games do you give the struggling back up QB? Do we then put Grossman in? Switch back to Griffin? Bad deal all the way around.

I think it's safe to say, with this team, that the worst case scenario is more likely to happen.

[amm0409]

RG3 is more accurate?  

 

RG3 throws for 61.2% first game and 65.0% the next.  Peyton Manning first game 64.3% and 69.8% the next.  Throwing over 60% a game not accurate enough?  We didnt loose the first two games just because of RG3:)

[chipwhich]

RG3 throws for 61.2% first game and 65.0% the next.  Peyton Manning first game 64.3% and 69.8% the next.  Throwing over 60% a game not accurate enough?  We didnt loose the first two games just because of RG3:)

 

Lose.

 

And yeah we lost them because of our awful defense.

[Hooper]

Good Lord, RG3 tore his ACL in January!

If it takes him the entire season to get back to normal, then fine. And I say that as someone who loves Kirk.

Big picture, folks.

[heylookitsdan]

Ok here is the thing everyone is blaming Griffin the defense or both. True last year the defense looked good since the offense was on the field, it masked what a horrible d coordinator Haslett is. The main worry that we have no matter who are qb is, is the o-line, the heart and soul of an offense! The nice thing last season is that RG made that line look good. The only decent player on that line Trent who had one good season and still needs to mature as a player(or person). I like the mans heart and his physical style but he needs to grow up. So until we address the real reason why we are struggling it's really a mute point. We need to ride with RG. The thing that we need to do is let him loose, he has taken hits the knee is as good as it's going to be he needs to get the mental aspect back to his game and start to run to freeze the other teams defense. I thought we were going to beat philly. Sorry to all of you all who thought we were going to go into Green Bay and beat up on Rodgers that was never going to happen. The way I see it now is that we are going 9-7, I had us at 10-6 before we lost to the eagles. So we need to address the line and get rid of Haslett in the long run. We have a hard schedule ahead of us and as soon as RG starts to run we should be around 8-8 9-7 territory to finish the season. HAIL!!!!

[MartinC]

I just wonder how many people who are saying RGIII is 'struggling' have actually broken down the passing plays to see where the breakdowns have been? I know it's hard to really do this without knowing the play calls and what the reads and progressions should be but even a casual fan can look at a play after the game and get a sense for what happened.

I've not done this yet for every pass play we have run but I took a look at a few of the plays in the Green Bay game and actually RGIII played pretty well. The eye catching runs and splash plays when extends plays and makes something out of nothing are missing but he is making good reads, using his eyes well and generally making good throws.

I'm not saying there are not some plays and throws he would like back and the are still a few timing issues when he seems to hesitate a little on some throws ......but he is also playing well enough for us to win IF the defense could get off the field and the running game can become more consistent. RGIII has completed over 60% of his throws for 650+ yards 5TDs and 3 picks in 2 games. Some catch up stats there but if that's RGIII 'struggling' we are fine at QB.

I'd also point out that pass protection has been pretty good and we have looked a LOT better when we have spread teams out and gone pass first rather than bunched with power formations and tried to run to set up play action.

[Lavarleap56]

I just wonder how many people who are saying RGIII is 'struggling' have actually broken down the passing plays to see where the breakdowns have been? I know it's hard to really do this without knowing the play calls and what the reads and progressions should be but even a casual fan can look at a play after the game and get a sense for what happened.

I've not done this yet for every pass play we have run but I took a look at a few of the plays in the Green Bay game and actually RGIII played pretty well. The eye catching runs and splash plays when extends plays and makes something out of nothing are missing but he is making good reads, using his eyes well and generally making good throws.

I'm not saying there are not some plays and throws he would like back and the are still a few timing issues when he seems to hesitate a little on some throws ......but he is also playing well enough for us to win IF the defense could get off the field and the running game can become more consistent. RGIII has completed over 60% of his throws for 650+ yards 5TDs and 3 picks in 2 games. Some catch up stats there but if that's RGIII 'struggling' we are fine at QB.

I'd also point out that pass protection has been pretty good and we have looked a LOT better when we have spread teams out and gone pass first rather than bunched with power formations and tried to run to set up play action.

Agreed.. Too many people listen to sports radio and regurgitate opinions they hear even if its wrong.He played well in the first half, problem is the weaknesses of the surrounding players show up when Robert isn't playing like superman. Fans are fans tho, and most stick with their emotional reaction folowing a game, need to let that go to make an accurst assesment on a players play.

[Bubble Screen]

Agreed.. Too many people listen to sports radio and regurgitate opinions they hear even if its wrong.He played well in the first half, problem is the weaknesses of the surrounding players show up when Robert isn't playing like superman. Fans are fans tho, and most stick with their emotional reaction folowing a game, need to let that go to make an accurst assesment on a players play.

Sorry, RG3 did NOT play well in the first half Sunday. He has a QB rating of TWO in the first halves of both games combined, the worst in the NFL.

[skinfan2k]

This is the reason why this team has blown the past 20 years.  They literally give up at the first bad signs.  

 

Sorry, RG3 did NOT play well in the first half Sunday. He has a QB rating of TWO in the first halves of both games combined, the worst in the NFL.

 

Watch the game tape and stop talking out of your ass.  

[SWFLSkins]

Hi there.

How about the Defense actually, you know, stop someone first.

 

Oh forget it, I can't have a civilized discussion on this topic if you are bringing logic into the mix. 

Sorry, RG3 did NOT play well in the first half Sunday. He has a QB rating of TWO in the first halves of both games combined, the worst in the NFL.

Not like some of those INT's were the receivers fault. Which adds to that rating. Or josh morgan played kill the ball on third down. 

[mgilbo001]

Stubbornness ruins lots of seasons.  An 80% RG3 is not better than a 100% Cousins if we're talking about pocket passing the whole game.  I love RG3 and I'm sure he will eventually come back strong but right now I think its imperative not to let this season get out of control.  We are lucky to be back only one game but I think no team in the EAST has a chance at a wild card spot this year.  Either you win the division or you're out IMO.

 

I think if RG3 doesn't show something by Halftime against Detroit, you have to make the switch and at least try something new to spark the team.  We can talk about the D but you'd be tired too if you were on the field the whole game because the O does 3 and out all game.  Here is what I have always said...  Try Cousins and see what happens.  You can always put RG3 back in, but, to not try is stubborn.

[RiverboatGambler]

How can the fans turn on RG3 like this? Weve sucked for 2 decades. Now one guy finally brings us hope, tears his ACL, and we want him replaced because 2 games in he doesnt look as good even when he had no preseason reps? I said before the season that I dont think he fully returns to RG3 until the 2nd half of the Raiders game and we will dominate from then on. Hopefully its sooner but if not then we just have to wait it out.

 

Its clear that he's only going to get better by playing. People saying things about playing Cousins until the bye are crazy. Either way RG3 is going to look exactly the same. Weather its game 1 or week 6. He's going to have to play a few weeks before he's comfortable. Its best to get it out the way now and then we will go on a run while looking like a SB contender. No change

They never liked 10 in the first place or they are spoiled by last season or they are cousins' family and friends with their own motivations. No ther valid explanation. Lol. Bench our franchise QB for a quy who made a few big plays last year and had one good game against one of the worst teams in the league. He looked less than ordinary against the falcons and seahawks.

[mgilbo001]

This is the reason why this team has blown the past 20 years.  They literally give up at the first bad signs.  

 

 

Watch the game tape and stop talking out of your ass.  

Hes really not joking or talking out his a##.  I think in the first 3 quarters this year RG3 is 2nd worse in the league in QB rating where most of his stats come in junk time.  I"m not sure about the 2 but its not good at all.  Either way, I think everyone knows RG3 is not himself and I think he needs to find that in practice, not during a game that means the division title or playoff appearance.  

 

I hope he finds himself against Detroit but if he doesn't I think you make the switch and possibly save the season until he's healthy.  

[zoony]

. Green Bay drove it ALL over the D. Post game, their coaches are telling OUR coaches they knew everything we were doing on D & it allowed Rogers to pick thm apart.

I think it was obvious to everyone that the Green Bay coaches knew what our defense would do.

It's easy to blame coaching, but at the end of the day any offensive coordinator in the league knows what an opposing defense is going to do. You still have to line up and beat them.

We have pathetic personnel pretty much across the board in our secondary. It might be one of the worst units in the history of the league, the numbers certainly support that. I'm just not sure even having Buddy Ryan in his prime with Arnsparger and Parcells in support would make much difference at this point.

The group just flat out sucks. As fans we should accept that. The coaching staff REALLY needs to accept it, and they need to realize that we need play like we are in a shoot out from the first snap. Because we are

At least if we can keep pace on offense we might be able to force some turnovers on D as opposing offenses press

How can the fans turn on RG3 like this? Weve sucked for 2 decades. Now one guy finally brings us hope, tears his ACL, and we want him replaced because 2 games in he doesnt look as good even when he had no preseason reps? I said before the season that I dont think he fully returns to RG3 until the 2nd half of the Raiders game and we will dominate from then on.

The OP asked for a civil discussion. If you can't post like an adult stay out of this one

This is the reason why this team has blown the past 20 years.  They literally give up at the first bad signs.  

 

 

Watch the game tape and stop talking out of your ass.  

Again, civil or stfu

Last mention

[Pedro]

We're two games into season #2 of a 10+ year window, and can still get a double figure in the W column by winning two and half games for every further game lost.

 

As a documented believer that Kirk is a franchise QB (read my ES posts for proof) that will get us 2 1st round picks when we trade him..... there's no football reason other than getting injured that should or will get Robert off the field in favour of any other QB.  We're at the start of the career of the best QB to ever play in the B&G, sit back, relax and remember the big picture.

 

Passes to the left 

 

 

And for the sensible majority a 'we have a potential best ever franchise QB' five

[RiverboatGambler]

This thread deserves a poll.

[Murphs56]

Robert shouldn't be pulled under any circumstances unless he's injured which he is not. It's going to be extremely laughable when all these critics (media/fans) that have been criticizing his play shut up when he's finally back to himself

[mikeDinNYC]

the losses are not on RG3 at all... bad play calling and bad execution by too many players... get real...this question shouldn't even be posed this early in the season... robert is the starter and deserves to start the entire season if he's not hurt... i i don't see him as hurt right now, at all... the pros and cons question is just a ridiculous question to ask right now.

[Jumbo]

Thank you MartinC, LavarLeap56, and zoony.

 

I simply like to acknowledge positives when my mind has my finger inching towards the the red phone (non-ES related) like a Caterpillar of the Apocalypse before 9 am.

[mgilbo001]

Robert shouldn't be pulled under any circumstances unless he's injured which he is not. It's going to be extremely laughable when all these critics (media/fans) that have been criticizing his play shut up when he's finally back to himself

He is hurt.  He's not 100% and I would say hes not even 80%.  I've had the same injury he has and I don't care what anyone says, it will take 2-3 years for him to make a full recovery.  You can't sugar coat his injury, its not a sprained ankle.  I hope he proves all doubters wrong tomorrow and he has a great game, but what do we say if its another loss and another lack luster performance?  Are you willing to give up the season (possibly) for one guy?  Its a tough position to be in and I hope Shannahan doesn't wait to long to decide like he did last year.  We shall see!

[Lavarleap56]

Sorry, RG3 did NOT play well in the first half Sunday. He has a QB rating of TWO in the first halves of both games combined, the worst in the NFL.

Wrong.. Your opinion is he didn't play well. Everyone assumes it's the QB's fault because he's the most visable, no one really pays attention to the surrounding parts. Robert played well, had a throw or 2 he would like to have back but that's normal in any game. Robert is not back to being electric like 2012, so he doesn't cover up for all the mistakes around him yet.

Fact: Robert graded out high by the coaches on Sunday..

[Gamebreaker]

Here is the problem I have with this discussion. Those who believe Griffin should be benched if he continues to not play to expectations do not have any reasonable reasons why Cousins could actually do better. Cousins has played one good game in his career, and impressed in the waning minutes in another. Guess who else has done just as good with such limited action? Matt Flynn. Kevin Kolb. Quarterbacks who've turned out to be not as a good as previous assumed once DCs had more than six quarters of game film on them.

Here's the other issue with this logic: what would making the switch result in? It certainly wouldn't be wins. Our team has been outplayed in all three phases of the game, and the unit that has performed the worst hasn't been Griffin's. So you would want to bench our franchise quarterback, for a QB who is no guarantee to play better, only for the defense to still lose the game for us whether he plays well or not.

And here is the last, and best reason, why benching Griffin is folly: it would effectively end any chance that Shanahan and he could have a strong working relationship and beyond this season, we would be looking for a new head coach or counting down to Griffin leaving in free agency. All because of a short-sighted desire to win games now. It would be a much worse decision than allowing Griffin to stay in that Seattle game.

So to recap, we should bench Griffin for an largely unknown variable, until he is theoretically "healthier" and ready to play(yet he would get no reps to get better either), in an effort to win more games with a bad performing team and coincidentally ruining our franchise's chances of keeping a future great for the long-term. Is THIS what should warrant a discussion?

[Lavarleap56]

He is hurt.  He's not 100% and I would say hes not even 80%.  I've had the same injury he has and I don't care what anyone says, it will take 2-3 years for him to make a full recovery.  You can't sugar coat his injury, its not a sprained ankle.  I hope he proves all doubters wrong tomorrow and he has a great game, but what do we say if its another loss and another lack luster performance?  Are you willing to give up the season (possibly) for one guy?  Its a tough position to be in and I hope Shannahan doesn't wait to long to decide like he did last year.  We shall see!

He is not hurt period. He is healthy.

So you had the same injury as Robert..Are you an elite athlete that rehabbed 12hour days for 8 months... wild guess, no.

This is one of the moments I regret being on the beach without my computer..

If anyone feels like checking out my twitter from 9/18, I brokedown every pass play from the 1st half. There are several play images/angles, and analysis. I intended to put them on the blog but didn't have time before I ledt. Feel free to post them in this thread or anyother to add to the discussion. Tired of the armchair overreactions.. Still love you crazy fools tho

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

With everything that's already happened and starting out 0-2, it's easy to answer.  You stick with RGIII starting and ride him out.  To me it's a no brainer because odds/history usually doesn't lie.  Since 1990 (current playoff format) only 11.6% of teams that started off with a 0-2 record have made the playoffs.

 

The odds are not in our favor.  But interestingly, teams that start off 1-2 increase their chances and have a 23.3% chance of making the playoffs.  So it's a huge game for us.  If we lose Sunday, and drop to 0-3, then we have a 2.8% chance of making the playoffs, so at that point, it wont matter who plays at QB. 

 

If they were going to start Cousins, it had to be week 1.  We stick with RGIII until the end of the season and if our record is really horrible, say 2-12 or 4-10, 3-10, etc., then you play Cousins the last two/three weeks, see if he can have some incredible games to raise his trade value, then try to move him in the off season for a 1st or 2nd round pick.  Next years QB class doesn't look that impressive, which is good for Cousins and us.