***2021-2022 NBA Season Thread***

[Bozo the kKklown]

Lebron is only behind Kareem and Mike. Top 3 player ever.

And he could pass those two. (harder with Kareem)

The story will be about Steph and Klay going cold, but Kerr needs to be held accountable. Why was Ezeli playing in the 4th quarter? He was a cancer out there.

[The Evil Genius]

But even Jordan and Kareem needed Pippen and Magic. James seems to do it with lesser players than either of those 2 had. Personally, I think he's #1. Doesn't mean that we can't **** about him getting all the calls. Or laugh at his crab dribble bull**** explanation. Or the fact that he drops his shoulder into everyone to make space (and never gets called for it).

 

He flopped. Lets be real here. But the reason you gave is the reason why he will not be called on it.

 

Agreed. But I think 3 phantom fouls against him (Curry) in Game 6 more than made up for it. 

Edited June 20, 2016 by The Evil Genius

[RonArtest15]

Even though love still kind of sucked this game, I think he may have finally found his role. An extremely good role player who can dominant the boards and hit shots. The hitting shots thing didn't come to be tonight, but I think he can ease into it.

 

He played out of his mind defense on that last GS possession.  He was on Curry like glue.  Never seen that much focus/intensity from Love on the defensive end. 

[Bozo the kKklown]

James is up there but Jordan never lost in the Finals.  Just didn't happen.

Jordan also never faced a finals opponent that was favored against him. Never won a team that won 73 games.

[justice98]

But even Jordan and Kareem needed Pippen and Magic. James seems to do it with lesser players than either of those 2 had.

Let's not get carried away with this, they call them Big 3's for a reason, cuz they're really good. Is Dwyane Wade not going to the HoF? Do Bosh, Kyrie, and Love not have a combined 17 all-stars? And Love and Kyrie have a ton of years left, so we dont know how they'll wind up.

Jordan also never faced a finals opponent that was favored against him. Never won a team that won 73 games.

Because he was on such a team. Actually BEING the best player on the team that won 72 gotta count for something.

Even though love still kind of sucked this game, I think he may have finally found his role. An extremely good role player who can dominant the boards and hit shots. The hitting shots thing didn't come to be tonight, but I think he can ease into it.

Man, they are tying up a lot of cap space for a role player, even an extremely good one, which is debatable. Edited June 20, 2016 by justice98

[Sticksboi05]

But even Jordan and Kareem needed Pippen and Magic. James seems to do it with lesser players than either of those 2 had. 

 

The hyperbole around Scottie Pippen lately has gotten a bit much. Pippen was great versatile point forward and one of the best defenders ever but let's be real ... No GM takes Pippen over Wade to start a franchise, ever. And while Kyrie is terrible defensively, he could outscore Scottie with his eyes closed.

 

Kyrie's last 4 games this series were spectacular and he iced the series with a COLD three off the dribble. 

Edited June 20, 2016 by Sticksboi05

[abdcskins]

Some speculation of LeBron leaving Cleveland again and signing elsewhere. Not gonna happen.

[Sticksboi05]

Jordan also never faced a finals opponent that was favored against him. Never won a team that won 73 games.

 

See this is why these arguments are so silly. Now you're knocking on a guy for being so good that his team was always favored. They're both great and LeBron's career isn't even over yet so this is premature regardless.

[Bozo the kKklown]

Because he was on such a team. Actually BEING the best player on the team that won 72 gotta count for something.

so Jordan was on a stacked team, while Lebron has won without being on a stacked team. It most other conversations, the guy who did it on a underdog is usually seen as better.

 

See this is why these arguments are so silly. Now you're knocking on a guy for being so good that his team was always favored. They're both great and LeBron's career isn't even over yet so this is premature regardless.

im not knocking Jordan at all. If anything, I am using conventional sport fan narratives.

I think I read Lebron has only been favored in 2 of his 7 finals matchups in his career.

I dont think Lebron is better than Jordan but im also not going to dismiss it out of hand like many people will.

Just the "Jordan is 6-0 in finals" talking point is completely devoid of context. The Bulls were the ONLY great team in the 1990s. Thats not hyperbole or dissing them, its just the real.

Edited June 20, 2016 by BenningRoadSkin

[Predicto]

[Spaceman Spiff]

 The Bulls were the ONLY great team in the 1990s. Thats not hyperbole or dissing them, its just the real.

 

That's just dumb.  The Rockets went back to back and were a great team.  Utah Jazz made two consecutive trips to the finals to get nixed by Jordan.  At the tail end of the decade you had Duncan and Robinson teaming up to win a title for the Spurs.  

 

Team of the decade?  Absolutely.  The ONLY great team in the 90s?  Hardly.

[Sticksboi05]

Can we talk more about Kerr's coaching though? Ezeli was a black hole out there on both sides and actually saw playing time in the 4th. I am CONVINCED if he never sees playing time they win the title.

[Mr. Sinister]

Let's not get carried away with this, they call them Big 3's for a reason, cuz they're really good. Is Dwyane Wade not going to the HoF?

I typically ignore non inflammatory Heat chatter, but I'll address this. The teams in Miami were great, but very flawed depending on the matchup. Lebron was all universe, Bosh, though out of position, was very good. Not Toronto Bosh though. Wade post 2011 and pre 2015 was very up and down, and we had the worst collection of bigs and pg's in the game of basketball (seriously, when your backup centre is Joel motherloving Anthony, you have failed at everything).

opposing skilled big men and guards routinely ate us alive. But when push came to shove, Lebron was usually the one leading the charge. He carried those teams. Yeah, we got plenty of contributions from cats like Battier, Birdman, Miller, Ray, Chalmers, etc in a pinch, but it was Lebron carrying the burden, so much so that he couldn't take it anymore and left.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Spiff, I ask this because I have thought about it many times. So bear with me. 

 

Did the teams really need a dominant center back then ? 

 

Seriously, Kareem was not dominant at that point of his career, Parrish was not, Laimbeer was not. 

Those guys were good defenders...not great all time defenders at that point of their careers. 

 

A big center is always great to have to clog up the lane, challenge shots, rebound. Scoring was put backs and dunks. The footwork made made them good, none of them were really that dominant at that point. Thus the reason the Lakers and Celtics needed good passers and shooters. Not to mention supplementary defenders. 

 

Kareem was still averaging 17.5 ppg as late as the 86-87 season.  He might not have been a dominant force on the boards but he was still a force to be reckoned with.  Parish was effective until about 1990.  Laimbeer wasn't ever the player those guys were on his best day but he was still effective as well.  He was certainly more productive than any center Jordan teamed up with.  IIRC, he did have a string of averaging double doubles for about 3 or 4 years in the mid to late 80's.  

 

IIRC, the Blazers didn't have a dominant big man the year they met the Bulls in the finals.  Same with the Suns.  However, Jordan had to get past an extremely physical Knicks team each year to get there.  I think the Knicks/Bulls matchups in the playoffs were often more exciting and bloodthirsty than anything in the Finals.  

 

While he was away the Rockets won with Hakeem, matching up against a young Shaq and Ewing.  Duncan and Robinson were at the end of the decade, too.  It still was a center driven league throughout the decade, IMO.  

 

So you're right, teams didn't HAVE to have a dominant center back then but it sure made things easier.  Centers on Jordan's teams were never better than the centers that they were matching up with.  

[Bozo the kKklown]

That's just dumb.  The Rockets went back to back and were a great team.  Utah Jazz made two consecutive trips to the finals to get nixed by Jordan.  At the tail end of the decade you had Duncan and Robinson teaming up to win a title for the Spurs.  

 

Team of the decade?  Absolutely.  The ONLY great team in the 90s?  Hardly.

The Jazz were not a great team. Stockton and Malone went to the finals after all the really strong Western Conference teams got old and disbanded. They got to the finals because they lasted the longest.

 

The Rockets would have gave the Bulls a matchup nightmare, but when I say great  I mean in the all time realm. The Rockets have never been in that convo.

 

The Bulls are the only team we remember from the 1990s.

 

 

Look at the 80s, Celtics, Lakers, and Sixers.

 

70s had the Knicks and Celtics teams.

[Spaceman Spiff]

The Jazz were not a great team. Stockton and Malone went to the finals after all the really strong Western Conference teams got old and disbanded. They got to the finals because they lasted the longest.

 

The Rockets would have gave the Bulls a matchup nightmare, but when I say great  I mean in the all time realm. The Rockets have never been in that convo.

 

The Bulls are the only team we remember from the 1990s.

 

 

Look at the 80s, Celtics, Lakers, and Sixers.

 

70s had the Knicks and Celtics teams.

 

If you're taking the Rockets out of the 1990s conversation then I'm taking out the Sixers of the 80s.  Very good, certainly.  The 1983 team kicked ass and swept the Lakers but got bounced from the playoffs early the next year.  They made back to back finals but only won it once.  When I think 80's basketball I think of the Lakers and Celtics, to be sure but I don't think about the Sixers.  If you're talking great 80s teams I'd put the Pistons ahead of the Sixers.

 

But if you're pointing to the prior two decades and saying that those decades had TWO great teams each and the 90s only had one...I don't see what the big deal is.  

[Warhead36]

The problem in the 90s is all the star players were spread out. In the 80s you pretty much had every great player on four teams: LA, Boston, Detroit, and Philly. In the 90s you had: Barkley on Phoenix(and Houston at the end of his career), Malone and Stockton on Utah, Olajuwon on Houston, Payton on Seattle, Miller on Indiana, Ewing on NY, etc. etc. There were more good teams but other then the Bulls no other legit great team.

[Bozo the kKklown]

If you're taking the Rockets out of the 1990s conversation then I'm taking out the Sixers of the 80s.  Very good, certainly.  The 1983 team kicked ass and swept the Lakers but got bounced from the playoffs early the next year.  They made back to back finals but only won it once.  When I think 80's basketball I think of the Lakers and Celtics, to be sure but I don't think about the Sixers.  If you're talking great 80s teams I'd put the Pistons ahead of the Sixers.

 

But if you're pointing to the prior two decades and saying that those decades had TWO great teams each and the 90s only had one...I don't see what the big deal is.

how can you take out the Sixers? Especially the championship team that won 67 65 games and only lost one game in the postseason? Thats crazy.

They also got in epic battled with both the Lakers and Celtics. I only took the Rockets out because they were not an all time great team. Those early 80s Sixers teams could have won 3 or 4 titles

The Sixers>Pistons in the 1980s.

I didnt include the 60s because the Celtics were the great team, but the 67 Sixers were also an all time team and were a legit rival to the them.

WHo was the 90s Bulls big rival?

Edited June 20, 2016 by BenningRoadSkin

[Momma There Goes That Man]

Can we talk more about Kerr's coaching though? Ezeli was a black hole out there on both sides and actually saw playing time in the 4th. I am CONVINCED if he never sees playing time they win the title.

I agree with you. It was a head scratcher I think he immediately gave up 8 pts. Would have liked to see Mo Buckets in there more, at least he can catch, can score and provide energy.

Also, running about 3-4 straight possessions through Varejao, I think all of which resulted in turnovers made no sense.

This game was there for the taking. quite sad.

[abdcskins]

I was listening to the radio driving to work this morning, I think it was Dan Le Batard, and he made the point that Draymond Green was the best player on the floor last night. If the Warriors get contributions from anyone else they probably win the game.

5 years from now, people are going to forget about Draymond Green being suspended for Game 5, which I think everyone believes was bull****. The Bogut injury...Cavs got some breaks this series.

All that being said they went out and earned it. Coming back from 3-1, unprecedented.

[ddub52]

This is as ridiculous as arguing that LeBron can't be the best ever because he lost the 2007 Finals. Nobody was getting past Bird-McHale-Parrish and he didn't have a decent teammate until Pippen, who didn't become Pippen really until his third year in the league. Harping on him losing to teams filled with Hall of Famers is unfair. Just as unfair as harping on LeBron for losing when his teammates couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.

Last night was a sensational accomplishment for LeBron. When he retires, it's going to be him and Michael at a dinner for two, and then everyone else. Who is 1A and 1B we can debate until the cows come home but it's irrelevant at this point, this isn't an NHL situation where Gretzky put so much separation between him and everyone else.

The pettiness on both sides of the debate shows how much we really can't just appreciate greatness in sports. I mean I really dislike LeBron, but the guy is an amazing basketball player and worthy of Mt. Rushmore.

Detroit was Jordan's real road block, not the Celtics. But overall I agree. Like I said in my post, I'm not calling LeBron GOAT. I was just responding to a post that said "Jordan didn't lose in the Finals. Just didn't happen". As if, Jordan was perfect. He lost in the playoffs a bunch of times befofe he got there. Nothing wrong with that. As you said, he shouldn't be faulted for it, as Bron shouldn't be faulted for winning his conference, but not the Finals.

But for comparison, at 31, Jordan and Bron both had 3 titles. LeBron has 7 appearances, while Jordan had 3.

[justice98]

I typically ignore non inflammatory Heat chatter, but I'll address this. The teams in Miami were great, but very flawed depending on the matchup. Lebron was all universe, Bosh, though out of position, was very good. Not Toronto Bosh though. Wade post 2011 and pre 2015 was very up and down, and we had the worst collection of bigs and pg's in the game of basketball (seriously, when your backup centre is Joel motherloving Anthony, you have failed at everything).

opposing skilled big men and guards routinely ate us alive. But when push came to shove, Lebron was usually the one leading the charge. He carried those teams. Yeah, we got plenty of contributions from cats like Battier, Birdman, Miller, Ray, Chalmers, etc in a pinch, but it was Lebron carrying the burden, so much so that he couldn't take it anymore and left.

Bosh wasn't Toronto Bosh because he didnt have to be, nor did they ask him to be. It's like this Kevin Love vs Minnesota Kevin Love.

Jordan's Bulls were flawed, with their dubious collection of centers and point guards. I guess Will Perdue is awesome now. On that first 3-peat, the roster spots 4-15 were pretty weak. Being flawed is allowed.

[ddub52]

C'mon, Magic hadn't been diagnosed yet, that is completely inaccurate. That season, he averaged 19.4 ppg, 12.5 apg and 7.0 rpg. To act like Jordan beat a diminished Magic to win his first title isn't accurate at all. Magic, that year, was the same age as LeBron is this year. Definitely a veteran but by no means over the hill or unproductive. That, and he finally beat the Pistons that year to get to the finals...they weren't as strong as they were in previous years but they were still formidable.

In the finals, he faced Barkley the year that Barkley won the MVP and faced Malone the year he won the MVP, too. I'm not sure what your argument is here. Barkley and Malone are two of the top 5 power forwards of all time.

Jordan also did it in on teams with no center in an era where having a dominant center was completely crucial to winning it all. Magic had Kareem, the Celtics had Parrish and the Pistons had Laimbeer...who wasn't in the same breath as the other two but was still better than anyone Jordan played with. The years Jordan stepped away to play baseball, the league was dominated by Hakeem Olajuwon who faced Shaq and then Ewing in back to back finals. The fact that Jordan won 6 rings without a dominant 7 footer in an era where dominant center play was pretty crucial to teams success is one of the things that never gets talked about.

Clearly you never watched Bulls vs. Knicks in the playoffs, those were physical battles that we'll never see again. To act like Jordan faced inferior competition during his title runs is such an off base argument it's not even funny. He played in an era with harder defensive rules and less teams which means the teams were deeper.

He had most likely already been diagnosed if he made an announcement a few months after the season. Regardless, that was the last push by that Lakers team. Those Jazz teams were NOT good teams. I wouldn't put those Jazz teams up against any of the championship Warriors or Spurs teams. The Suns didn't have anyone but Barkley. I can't even think of another player on that team. Dumas? I'm sure Barkley doubled his production. Stop Barkley, you win. You're probably right about those Knicks teams though.

C'mon, Magic hadn't been diagnosed yet, that is completely inaccurate. That season, he averaged 19.4 ppg, 12.5 apg and 7.0 rpg. To act like Jordan beat a diminished Magic to win his first title isn't accurate at all. Magic, that year, was the same age as LeBron is this year. Definitely a veteran but by no means over the hill or unproductive. That, and he finally beat the Pistons that year to get to the finals...they weren't as strong as they were in previous years but they were still formidable.

In the finals, he faced Barkley the year that Barkley won the MVP and faced Malone the year he won the MVP, too. I'm not sure what your argument is here. Barkley and Malone are two of the top 5 power forwards of all time.

Jordan also did it in on teams with no center in an era where having a dominant center was completely crucial to winning it all. Magic had Kareem, the Celtics had Parrish and the Pistons had Laimbeer...who wasn't in the same breath as the other two but was still better than anyone Jordan played with. The years Jordan stepped away to play baseball, the league was dominated by Hakeem Olajuwon who faced Shaq and then Ewing in back to back finals. The fact that Jordan won 6 rings without a dominant 7 footer in an era where dominant center play was pretty crucial to teams success is one of the things that never gets talked about.

Clearly you never watched Bulls vs. Knicks in the playoffs, those were physical battles that we'll never see again. To act like Jordan faced inferior competition during his title runs is such an off base argument it's not even funny. He played in an era with harder defensive rules and less teams which means the teams were deeper.

He had most likely already been diagnosed if he made an announcement a few months after the season. Regardless, that was the last push by that Lakers team. Those Jazz teams were NOT great teams. I wouldn't put those Jazz teams up against any of the championship Warriors or Spurs teams. The Suns didn't have anyone but Barkley. I can't even think of another player on that team. Dumas? I'm sure Barkley doubled his production. Stop Barkley, you win. You're probably right about those Knicks teams though. Edited June 20, 2016 by ddub52

[justice98]

That's just dumb. The Rockets went back to back and were a great team. Utah Jazz made two consecutive trips to the finals to get nixed by Jordan. At the tail end of the decade you had Duncan and Robinson teaming up to win a title for the Spurs.

Team of the decade? Absolutely. The ONLY great team in the 90s? Hardly.

The Rockets were not a great team, which is why they never get mentioned amongst the great teams historically.

Let's be careful tossing around "great". The Rockets and Jazz were very good teams.

[RonArtest15]

You guys gotta watch this...

 

 

If you don't feel some type of way after hearing what JR Smith has to say, then I dunno what to tell ya.  Through everything, and watching as a fan, it's VERY easy to forget that these guys are husbands, fathers, and sons.  That raw emotion from JR Smith after the question was really moving.